Shutting up and training is all fine and good but if that doesn't work Im going to start using my mouth.
Its about the journey not the destination
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
- Start date
You won't learn much (if anything) by flapping your mouth.
From my experience, not just in the martial arts but with learning in general, its often good to ask questions and most good teachers encourage and expect it.
Geo
White Belt
@PhotonGuy
It's good that you clarified your post. When I saw it I wanted to jump straight away but I waited and I wasn't disappointed. Your first post had a sting in its tail but made sense when you followed it up.
First of all you have a right under Article 19 to express your opinions. Having said that this right comes with obligations and responsibilities. In the context of our martial arts community it is respect and courtesy.
I'd like to consider myself as a teacher that encourages students to express themselves albeit' respectfully and with due courtesy not just to me but to other students and asst. instructor in my dojang. In my experience I never had any trouble with this from the students, its the parents who give me a lot of concern though due to their expectations which are often inconsistent with the tenet of perseverance.
I believe that if one ceases to learn from a teacher that this issue needs to be communicated to the teacher and the teacher must listen and the teacher is obligated to explore new avenues for learning. As martial arts teachers we are obligated to impart knowledge not just drill and train participants.
There is a time for learning and a time for talking the wise martial artists should know where and when.
Have a great day and peace.[emoji6]
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Zero
Master Black Belt
I always think it is a good idea not to get overly gung-ho on so called inherent rights to freedom of expression, one needs to appreciate that this isn't necessarily on an unfettered or unchecked basis. When you go reaching for your Art.. 19, it's always good to keep Art. 29 of the UN's UDHR in the back on one's mind:
"In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations."
My take on this has always been, sure, you got your freedom of expression until that amounts to you being a loud mouth douche bag and getting into other people's faces.
Translation for in the dojo:
If you have a question, sure you should ask it - at the appropriate time - no one should take things as route or be a robot. But if the sensei or club owner tells you it's not the time or its simply not the way they do things, then shut up and train or go find yourself another dojo.
peace.
Zero
Master Black Belt
Maybe you could clarify, how do you intend on putting your mouth to use??!
Zero
Master Black Belt
Seriously though, if something isn't gelling or doesn't seem right, or you simply can't make sense of it, then you are right to be asking questions when the opportunity presents itself.. That said, and taking my experience in judo, TKD, jujitsu, goju ryu and WC, you can actually train and absorb so much of what many arts have to offer without even speaking or opening your mouth.
In fact, it's quite common for the sensei in karate or judo to give you a little nudge here to correct your posture/balance, push/kick your foot a bit there and to show you how to improve on your technique without speaking at all.
Aside from the internal aspects of some of the arts (which really in my view do take some verbal explaining) I would go so far as to wager you could effectively learn to high level 85% of what most martial and sport arts have to offer without you or the sensei/coach opening their mouth once.
Zero
Master Black Belt
A class full of five or six year olds all babbling out questions to the teacher just ain't going to be that conducive to learning.
Many junior martial artists are kind of like those five and six year olds just starting out at school. Last thing they, the sensei or the rest of the class needs, is a bunch of green horns spouting out questions.
It is a cliché but there is also truth in it: "patience grasshopper, patience..."
Geo
White Belt
@Zero
I appreciate your candor in skewering freedom of expression with responsibility. It's good to know that beneath all those words that you wrote you actually concur with my post.
I just had a chuckle when you had to bring in the United Nations into it....lighten up mate.
Let us bring back the discussion into your dojo and my dojang. Nobody likes a loud mouth let alone a smart **** anywhere anytime. I guess in a nutshell and in very simple terms this is what you are trying to impart and I agree completely.
Be that as it may nowadays some instructors or martial arts teachers still try to put on an autocratic clout for fear of being questioned if not exposed of their inadequacies first as a teacher then second as a martial artist. I don't sucscribe to the infallibility of martial arts teachers inside the dojo or the dojang due to basic human flaws.
In my dojang I always encourage my more mature students to ask themselves if they are growing as a martial artist or if they are still on the path of their chosen journey and that if it comes to a point that they can no longer grow or move forward then its time for us to part ways.
It doesn't have to come to "Shut and just train".
Peace be with you.
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To be honest it does when the same person has said the same thing many, many times across a myriad of threads, there really is nothing else to say other than shut up and train or if you are uber polite please shut up and train. The fact that no one has said STFU and train speaks volumes for the patience of people here.
Well if its taking me longer than usual to go up a belt I will want to know why. In such a situation I wouldn't ask when Im going to test but I might ask why I haven't been told I could test.
so you expect to grade in a specific time rather than when you are ready. As you progress it should take longer between gradings, unless you think there is a timescale you must follow.
In dojos that use ranking systems there is an average length of time it takes for a student to advance. That average length of time would vary from dojo to dojo and yes, with higher belts it often will take longer on the average to go up a belt.
You know I love it when you answer me as if I were someone who knew nothing about dojos etc instead of someone with decades of experience.
Going back over your posts over time it seems you are put out that you haven't gained a belt you think you should of in the time you think you should have. You won't find answers on here, we aren't going to validate your performance anxieties by telling you that you are correct and your instructors are wrong.
Good dojos who have a grading system have an approximate timescale, it isn't set in concrete and nearly always is used so that you don't grade too soon, it usually specifies time in a grade before you can start grading for the next belt rather than have an 'average' time for gradings, this would only be of use the beginners really. Our system and many I know of only give that minimum time in grade as any indication of a timescale. It takes as long as it takes, the more impatient you are the harder it is.
You asked a question and I answered. Its that simple. You asked if I believed I should advance in a specific length of time. As I pointed out there is an average length of time depending on the dojo and depending on the belt in which a student takes to advance. While its not scribed in stone I would expect to not take much longer than the average length of time and if it is taking my longer I would want to know why. Its that simple.
As for your decades of experience can you fill me in?
And BTW, on a side note, it really isn't appropriate to be sarcastic in writing the way you were above.
I never said my instructors were wrong, Im trying to figure out why some people would consider it wrong to ask about it. You might not consider it wrong but there have been people on this board who have said its disrespectful.
I can fill you in anytime you fancy lol but challenges aren't allowed on here rofl.
You decided I'm being sarcastic, actually I wasn't, I do love it when you prove to me you don't read what has been written.
Geo
White Belt
@Tez3To be honest it does when the same person has said the same thing many, many times across a myriad of threads, there really is nothing else to say other than shut up and train or if you are uber polite please shut up and train. The fact that no one has said STFU and train speaks volumes for the patience of people here.
STFU and train.....hmmmm. If you are alluding to one person's insistence to just talk and not train, or labor the point of 'using their mouths to train' here in this forum and if you are sick and tired of seeing it then there are two things you may consider doing. One is to ignore it and more importantly, two, leave.
Back in the dojo where students pay to learn, if it does get to a point where a student is obviously not satisfied with his or her training then recommend another school, its their money after all and obviously again the teacher has failed to set and meet expectations.
In my books martial arts student failure like a 'tango' takes two. The failure of the student is the failure of the teacher. So when it does come to STFU and train its perhaps time.
Cheers mate!
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I'm afraid you have misunderstood what I had written, I'm not in the least fed up so advice isn't needed. I'm also not your 'mate' I'm my husband's mate, no one else's.
I was merely pondering that the fact someone hadn't actually said that, plenty have said shut up and train though. I assume you have come late to this saga ( which is continued on a few other threads btw)? It is a saga, on going and never ending and that in itself is interesting, so I'm not going anywhere however your politely worded your 'get lost' to me is.
Describing your background in a sport, skill, or activity such as martial arts is not a challenge.
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