Its about the journey not the destination

[dugite61]

After a long journey that originally started in 85 I always expected that receiving my BB would be the end all, I was very confused then when leading up to it and on being presented with it my feelings weren't those of elation and excitement but rather feelings of the weight of responsibility of setting the correct example and being a role model for those to follow. My first self training sessions outside the Dojo after that presentation saw me returning to work on my Heian Kata and Kihon.

 

[RowdyAz]

PG has referenced spoon feeding on several occasions because he seems to be fixated on a post I made on this topic but I think he has misinterpreted what I meant.

I originally stated that we don't directly discuss the grading requirements with students as that would be spoonfeeding them when they train in what they are going to be tested on every day.

The essence of my point was that I want them to get good at what they train in, rather than spending time trying to get good at tests.

I might be wrong but I am under the impression that a test is based on what you train in.

 

[Gnarlie]

I might be wrong but I am under the impression that a test is based on what you train in.

Absolutely my point. Why does a student need to know the testing requirements when they live and train them every single session?

 

[PhotonGuy]

so you think the Japanese aren't goal orientated then? Japan - Geert Hofstede

OK good point. So if the Japanese are goal oriented than if you do take up a Japanese martial art than there is nothing wrong with being goal oriented about it. Sure, some people might take up a martial art just as a fun hobby and might not be all that serious about it but if you are one of those people who is really serious about it than there is nothing wrong with that and there is nothing wrong with being goal oriented with it. After all, you're taking up an activity from a very goal oriented culture.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Absolutely my point. Why does a student need to know the testing requirements when they live and train them every single session?

Well a student perhaps shouldn't know exactly what's going to be on the test but they should have a basic idea of all the material that would be covered which as you point out is covered in class but if they're unclear about something it shouldn't be a problem to ask. For instance, in school most of the time you don't know exactly what's on a test before you take it. To know exactly what's going to be on say, a math or history or science test would be spoon feeding and that's why they don't show it to you until you take it. But it is not uncommon for students to ask their teachers before a test what they need to study and the teacher will give them a basic idea, tell them the chapters they need to study, ect.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well a student perhaps shouldn't know exactly what's going to be on the test but they should have a basic idea of all the material that would be covered which as you point out is covered in class but if they're unclear about something it shouldn't be a problem to ask. For instance, in school most of the time you don't know exactly what's on a test before you take it. To know exactly what's going to be on say, a math or history or science test would be spoon feeding and that's why they don't show it to you until you take it. But it is not uncommon for students to ask their teachers before a test what they need to study and the teacher will give them a basic idea, tell them the chapters they need to study, ect.

The answer should be "study everything we've covered up to this point." "Will this be on the test" is a question that translates as "I don't really care about learning the material, just passing the test."

 

[Gnarlie]

The answer should be "study everything we've covered up to this point." "Will this be on the test" is a question that translates as "I don't really care about learning the material, just passing the test."

QFT.

And with MA, it is actual competence that matters. I have issues with people trying to cram and peak for a test. Example -learn a bunch of step sparring the week before, then do them, then forget about them immediately after passing a test and not practice any until the next test. To me, that shouldn't be how martial arts works but I fear it is at a lot of places.

 

[Dirty Dog]

QFT.

And with MA, it is actual competence that matters. I have issues with people trying to cram and peak for a test. Example -learn a bunch of step sparring the week before, then do them, then forget about them immediately after passing a test and not practice any until the next test. To me, that shouldn't be how martial arts works but I fear it is at a lot of places.

We randomly include material from lower belt testing in all our promotions.

 

[Tez3]

QFT.

And with MA, it is actual competence that matters. I have issues with people trying to cram and peak for a test. Example -learn a bunch of step sparring the week before, then do them, then forget about them immediately after passing a test and not practice any until the next test. To me, that shouldn't be how martial arts works but I fear it is at a lot of places.

That's the way schools are going here because of government performance tables, the children are learning to pass tests not getting an education.Sats exams promote teaching to the test - Telegraph

Martial arts gradings can be the same if the instructors are more concerned about either getting the grading money or pandering to 'customer's wanting belts.

 

[Danny T]

The answer should be "study everything we've covered up to this point."

When we hand out 'You Will Be Tested' papers the student is given a list of material that may be tested. The last on the list is; "Any Previous Material Covered".

 

[pgsmith]

The way the koryu sword school that I used to be a part of did it was that the first six forms you learned were the ones that you had to perform for every test. Only six, and the same ones every time. The head of the school and the U.S. head instructor would watch you perform those kata, and decide from your performance whether you had advanced enough in technique to attain the next rank. Many did not. After you got so high in the hierarchy, you were expected to train a certain amount of time with the school head and the U.S. head instructor so they knew where you were in regards to knowledge level.

 

[kuniggety]

I know there's BJJ schools that do formal testing and have set standards but I am at Axis which is a Rickson Gracie affiliate school and they promote you when you're ready. It's performance based in your rolling. Are you successful in your position changes? Can you hold position? Are you sweeping? Are you defending submissions? Are you submitting? And lastly, against who are you doing all of these against (size/sex/belt)? You're a blue belt when you can do these regularly against white belts and hold your own against the blue belts. You're a purple belt when you are doing those regularly against blue belts and can hold your own against the purple belts. So on for brown and then for black. There's literally hundreds of techniques that you have to learn and there is no cramming and no dumping. If you dump, someone is going to use a technique on you and you're not going to know how to defend or likewise you're going to miss an opportunity because you dumped a technique that you could've used.

 

[PhotonGuy]

QFT.

And with MA, it is actual competence that matters. I have issues with people trying to cram and peak for a test. Example -learn a bunch of step sparring the week before, then do them, then forget about them immediately after passing a test and not practice any until the next test. To me, that shouldn't be how martial arts works but I fear it is at a lot of places.

You're example would not work at my dojo because stuff you're tested on you will use as you further progress in the martial arts. For the yellow belt some of the techniques you're tested on is the reverse punch and the front kick. You can't then forget them after the test because you will be using them during your training as a yellow belt and as you work on your orange belt, the belt after yellow. So if you have to learn a bunch of step sparring for a belt, you will use it after you get the belt and it will be part of stuff that you will be doing for your next belt. When you go up a belt you're then taught a new kata for the next belt but when you test for the next belt you will not only be tested on the new kata but on katas for previous belts, for that very reason that they don't want you cramming and forgetting stuff afterwards.

Much like with math, when you learn basic addition and subtraction and are tested on it, you can't then forget it because you will be using it for the rest of the math you will be learning. Algebra, Geometry, Calculus, ext, all the more advanced forms of math use the basics, addition and subtraction.

Speaking of math, its my second language. Im pointing this out because its been questioned on these boards if english is really my first language. Actually its my third. My first language is martial arts, my second language is math, and my third language is english.

BTW, speaking of cramming and peaking for a test you see that in school all the time. You can't get away with it in subjects such as math as I mentioned above, but you see it with stuff such as history.

 

[Gnarlie]

You're example would not work at my dojo because stuff you're tested on you will use as you further progress in the martial arts. For the yellow belt some of the techniques you're tested on is the reverse punch and the front kick. You can't then forget them after the test because you will be using them during your training as a yellow belt and as you work on your orange belt, the belt after yellow. So if you have to learn a bunch of step sparring for a belt, you will use it after you get the belt and it will be part of stuff that you will be doing for your next belt. When you go up a belt you're then taught a new kata for the next belt but when you test for the next belt you will not only be tested on the new kata but on katas for previous belts, for that very reason that they don't want you cramming and forgetting stuff afterwards.

Much like with math, when you learn basic addition and subtraction and are tested on it, you can't then forget it because you will be using it for the rest of the math you will be learning. Algebra, Geometry, Calculus, ext, all the more advanced forms of math use the basics, addition and subtraction.

Speaking of math, its my second language. Im pointing this out because its been questioned on these boards if english is really my first language. Actually its my third. My first language is martial arts, my second language is math, and my third language is english.

BTW, speaking of cramming and peaking for a test you see that in school all the time. You can't get away with it in subjects such as math as I mentioned above, but you see it with stuff such as history.

That's exactly my point PG, they shouldn't cram and it doesn't work. It still happens though, particularly with people who are focused on belts rather than skills. It just means their ability level is lower than everyone else's for their grade.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Alright Im tired of beating around the bush so I am going to be up front and say what I've got to say and so hopefully after this I won't keep repeating myself. As aggravating as it might be for the people here its aggravating for me too, not being able to make my point, since I am not saying what I should be saying directly but instead more or less talking around it. Anybody who chooses to read this I will say that its going to be quite long, Im telling you now so you can make the choice if you want to sit through the whole thing. So here goes.

Some people here have mentioned that in their dojo, the sensei tells them when they will test and that for a student to be able to sign up for a test without first being told that its not the proper way to do it and in that case its a McDojo. The fact of the matter is, dojos will be run the way the head sensei wants to run it and the head sensei can run it anyway they want within the confines of the law, obviously a sensei cannot do anything illegal in their running of the dojo. So some dojos with some senseis they will require that you be told you can test before you can test and other senseis will leave it up to the student to decide if they want to test when the test rolls around, or at least they will expect the student to ask to test although the sensei might tell them they're not ready but its still up to the student to ask in the first place. So we've established that but that's also beside the point.

The fact of the matter is, some of the people who go to those dojos where you have to wait to be told before you can test, they say they would never ask their sensei when they will test because that's disrespectful. Its disrespectful in that you're questioning the sensei's judgement, that the sensei will tell you when you're ready and until then you're supposed to just shut up and train and not say or ask anything about it. While a sensei certainly has the right to require students to be told before they can test, to not be allowed to even ask or say anything about it that's going a bit too far. I can see how asking a sensei when you will test can be disrespectful but especially if you've been at a certain rank for much longer than it should ordinarily take than you should at least say something about it, if you want to advance. There are some students who might get to a certain rank and then stop pursuing rank and they will be satisfied with the rank they're at. That's fine but if a student does want to advance beyond the rank they're at and its taking longer than it should then there's no reason the student shouldn't use their mouth at that point. At any dojo that uses rank, there is an average length of time it takes most students to go up ranks. If you're taking much longer than average to advance, you want to advance, and you're working hard than saying something shouldn't be a problem. Maybe you shouldn't ask your sensei when you're going to test but instead you could ask them what you need to do to be able to test. Why you're not being told to test and what you need to fix so you can test. That way you will know what to work on. If you're not advancing and you want to advance then there are two reasons why you aren't advancing. Either you're not doing it right or you're not working hard enough. So that would mean if you're working hard and you're still not advancing you should ask your sensei if you're doing it right and if you're not, what you need to correct. Take for instance a brown belt student whose next rank up is black, for the student to say, "Sensei, I want to get a black belt, what do I need to do?" I don't think that's unreasonable. Thats much like a student in academic school who says to their teacher in class, "Teacher, I want to get an A, what do I need to do?" I've never known of any teacher who would consider that disrespectful so I don't see why it would be disrespectful for a brown belt student to ask about the black belt, particularly if they've been a brown belt for long enough. So at some dojos you have to be told before you can test and at some dojos you have to take the initiative and at least ask if you can test but whichever way its done it shouldn't be wrong to ask what you need to do to be able to test and doing so might be the only way that you know you can test. Take for instance a student whose a brown belt and they think they need to be told before they can test for black belt. Enough time has gone by and so they ask their sensei about it. So the dialogue might go something like this.



Student: "Sensei, I want to get a black belt, what do I need to do?"



Sensei: "You need to sign up and take the test and do well enough to pass."



So you see, the student wouldn't even known that they had to take the initiative and sign up to test without being told first. By asking that way the student knows they don't need to be told before they can test but the student will only know that if they use their mouth.



Also, from my experience its always better to ask the head sensei directly rather than asking other students. Information is best when its straight from the horses mouth, or sensei's mouth in this case.



So that's what I've got to say. I can see how some people might say that asking when you're going to test is disrespectful but asking what you need to do to test shouldn't cause problems and sometimes its the only way a student will know what they need to know.



This of course would only apply to students who want to pursue rank or who want to go beyond the rank they're at. If you're not concerned with rank or if you're satisfied with the rank you've got than this would be a non issue.



Anybody who took the time and patience to read through all this I would like to thank you and feedback from anybody of any sort is most welcome. I said what I had to say and any further posts on this topic will just be answers to feedback from other posters.

 

[Zero]

Alright Im tired of beating around the bush so I am going to be up front and say what I've got to say and so hopefully after this I won't keep repeating myself. As aggravating as it might be for the people here its aggravating for me too, not being able to make my point, since I am not saying what I should be saying directly but instead more or less talking around it. Anybody who chooses to read this I will say that its going to be quite long, Im telling you now so you can make the choice if you want to sit through the whole thing. So here goes.

Some people here have mentioned that in their dojo, the sensei tells them when they will test and that for a student to be able to sign up for a test without first being told that its not the proper way to do it and in that case its a McDojo. The fact of the matter is, dojos will be run the way the head sensei wants to run it and the head sensei can run it anyway they want within the confines of the law, obviously a sensei cannot do anything illegal in their running of the dojo. So some dojos with some senseis they will require that you be told you can test before you can test and other senseis will leave it up to the student to decide if they want to test when the test rolls around, or at least they will expect the student to ask to test although the sensei might tell them they're not ready but its still up to the student to ask in the first place. So we've established that but that's also beside the point.

The fact of the matter is, some of the people who go to those dojos where you have to wait to be told before you can test, they say they would never ask their sensei when they will test because that's disrespectful. Its disrespectful in that you're questioning the sensei's judgement, that the sensei will tell you when you're ready and until then you're supposed to just shut up and train and not say or ask anything about it. While a sensei certainly has the right to require students to be told before they can test, to not be allowed to even ask or say anything about it that's going a bit too far. I can see how asking a sensei when you will test can be disrespectful but especially if you've been at a certain rank for much longer than it should ordinarily take than you should at least say something about it, if you want to advance. There are some students who might get to a certain rank and then stop pursuing rank and they will be satisfied with the rank they're at. That's fine but if a student does want to advance beyond the rank they're at and its taking longer than it should then there's no reason the student shouldn't use their mouth at that point. At any dojo that uses rank, there is an average length of time it takes most students to go up ranks. If you're taking much longer than average to advance, you want to advance, and you're working hard than saying something shouldn't be a problem. Maybe you shouldn't ask your sensei when you're going to test but instead you could ask them what you need to do to be able to test. Why you're not being told to test and what you need to fix so you can test. That way you will know what to work on. If you're not advancing and you want to advance then there are two reasons why you aren't advancing. Either you're not doing it right or you're not working hard enough. So that would mean if you're working hard and you're still not advancing you should ask your sensei if you're doing it right and if you're not, what you need to correct. Take for instance a brown belt student whose next rank up is black, for the student to say, "Sensei, I want to get a black belt, what do I need to do?" I don't think that's unreasonable. Thats much like a student in academic school who says to their teacher in class, "Teacher, I want to get an A, what do I need to do?" I've never known of any teacher who would consider that disrespectful so I don't see why it would be disrespectful for a brown belt student to ask about the black belt, particularly if they've been a brown belt for long enough. So at some dojos you have to be told before you can test and at some dojos you have to take the initiative and at least ask if you can test but whichever way its done it shouldn't be wrong to ask what you need to do to be able to test and doing so might be the only way that you know you can test. Take for instance a student whose a brown belt and they think they need to be told before they can test for black belt. Enough time has gone by and so they ask their sensei about it. So the dialogue might go something like this.



Student: "Sensei, I want to get a black belt, what do I need to do?"



Sensei: "You need to sign up and take the test and do well enough to pass."



So you see, the student wouldn't even known that they had to take the initiative and sign up to test without being told first. By asking that way the student knows they don't need to be told before they can test but the student will only know that if they use their mouth.



Also, from my experience its always better to ask the head sensei directly rather than asking other students. Information is best when its straight from the horses mouth, or sensei's mouth in this case.



So that's what I've got to say. I can see how some people might say that asking when you're going to test is disrespectful but asking what you need to do to test shouldn't cause problems and sometimes its the only way a student will know what they need to know.



This of course would only apply to students who want to pursue rank or who want to go beyond the rank they're at. If you're not concerned with rank or if you're satisfied with the rank you've got than this would be a non issue.



Anybody who took the time and patience to read through all this I would like to thank you and feedback from anybody of any sort is most welcome. I said what I had to say and any further posts on this topic will just be answers to feedback from other posters.

This was perfect reading for when I was holding horse stance and working on endurance, thank you.

 

[Zero]

Student: "Sensei, I want to get a black belt, what do I need to do?"


Sensei: "You need to sign up and take the test and do well enough to pass."

Don't you mean:
Student: "Sensei, I want to get a black belt, what do I need to do?"

Sensei: "You need to...SHUT UP AND TRAIN."

 

[Steve]

Well a student perhaps shouldn't know exactly what's going to be on the test but they should have a basic idea of all the material that would be covered which as you point out is covered in class but if they're unclear about something it shouldn't be a problem to ask. For instance, in school most of the time you don't know exactly what's on a test before you take it. To know exactly what's going to be on say, a math or history or science test would be spoon feeding and that's why they don't show it to you until you take it. But it is not uncommon for students to ask their teachers before a test what they need to study and the teacher will give them a basic idea, tell them the chapters they need to study, ect.

From a training perspective, it seems like what you're referring to is just clear expectations. I think there's a good point here, PhotonGuy. You don't have to know what is on the test specifically. But, it's very reasonable to expect that the objectives for training are clear and well communicated. And if the system is well constructed, the metrics and standards for each belt rank should be pretty clear. You should be able to look at a person of a particular rank and conclude that they should meet a predictable standard of competence.

And as a student, you should be able to look ahead at your next grade and know what you will need to do.

This isn't the only "good" way to do things, but it's certainly one good way.

 

[Zero]

And if the system is well constructed, the metrics and standards for each belt rank should be pretty clear. You should be able to look at a person of a particular rank and conclude that they should meet a predictable standard of competence.

You would think so wouldn't you? And generally that is the case. What is your experience in bjjj and if you have trained at other bjj clubs? I have largely found that to be the case in judo and muay thai and kickboxing clubs.

However, I have been quite shocked over the years from time to time, in TKD and karate on running across and sparring with high grades or watching them spar, and they are pretty shocking. Poor technique and control, and just pretty poor when it comes to fighting/tournament. Now they may be great at kata (or at least be astheitcially impressive) but I have come across many bbs and higher which quite frankly suck when it comes to fighting!

My thought is that in grappling arts like judo, bjj, jitsu where you are going to be chocked or tapped if you compete or even roll at the club, you need to up your fight level and keep it up or it shows pretty quickly. This is also the case with striking styles where the emphasis is on ring time, such as boxing, Muay Thai and kickboxing and kyokoshin. Now there are of course numerous fighters in karate and TKD styles equally as talented. But I personally think that due to the ability to continue to grade higher through kata focus, and without much focus on kumite, in some clubs you get this kind of thing happening...

I still remember way back when I was a junior in Goju ryu and we had a 3rd dan visit from another club, his kicks were appallng, I remember the sempai's eyes rollling (not so discretely)...

 

[Geo]

From a training perspective, it seems like what you're referring to is just clear expectations. I think there's a good point here, PhotonGuy. You don't have to know what is on the test specifically. But, it's very reasonable to expect that the objectives for training are clear and well communicated. And if the system is well constructed, the metrics and standards for each belt rank should be pretty clear. You should be able to look at a person of a particular rank and conclude that they should meet a predictable standard of competence.

And as a student, you should be able to look ahead at your next grade and know what you will need to do.

This isn't the only "good" way to do things, but it's certainly one good way.

I believe that well communicated expectations and more importantly the level of expected technical standards are essential.

In my dojang parents of students come up to me and push their child's promotion even if the student is not ready. In spite of clearly stating facts the parents still push. I usually invite the parents to the dojang and get their child to demonstrate their skills. This gives me the opportunity to show the parents objectively their child's skill level at that time.

In my dojang I promote students who meet the technical requirements of their rank according to the syllabus. Our kup level syllabi is available for all, no secret agenda here. All the standards are presented in very clear and concise terms. I don't mind a student, especially a senior student, coming up to me and ask to be graded. In fact I encourage it, in these instances I ask them to 'show me' and not just 'tell me'.

Yes martial arts is not just the destination but the physical, emotional and spiritual growth of the person from the journey. But the journey is made more fruitful when its made clear to us where we are going and how we might get to where we are going.

Peace

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