Its about the journey not the destination

[Tez3]

A student should be told what they need to work on if they fail although some people might say that's spoon feeding.

How so? Why would an instructor telling the student what they needed to work on ever be considered 'spoon feeding'? How would a student know what to work on if the instructor didn't tell them? Are students supposed to have crystal balls? "Well you failed your test but I'm not going to tell you why, you have to guess!" No, don't think so.

 

[Gnarlie]

How so? Why would an instructor telling the student what they needed to work on ever be considered 'spoon feeding'? How would a student know what to work on if the instructor didn't tell them? Are students supposed to have crystal balls? "Well you failed your test but I'm not going to tell you why, you have to guess!" No, don't think so.

PG has referenced spoon feeding on several occasions because he seems to be fixated on a post I made on this topic but I think he has misinterpreted what I meant.

I originally stated that we don't directly discuss the grading requirements with students as that would be spoonfeeding them when they train in what they are going to be tested on every day.

The essence of my point was that I want them to get good at what they train in, rather than spending time trying to get good at tests.

 

[PhotonGuy]

PG has referenced spoon feeding on several occasions because he seems to be fixated on a post I made on this topic but I think he has misinterpreted what I meant.

I originally stated that we don't directly discuss the grading requirements with students as that would be spoonfeeding them when they train in what they are going to be tested on every day.

The essence of my point was that I want them to get good at what they train in, rather than spending time trying to get good at tests.

OK I see what you mean now.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Are students supposed to have crystal balls? "Well you failed your test but I'm not going to tell you why, you have to guess!" No, don't think so.

I have to agree with this and this would also apply to dojos where you have to be told before you can test. I got the impression that Gnarlie's place was like that but he said its not. Anyway, if you're not being told you can test you should know why you aren't being told you can test. You shouldn't be expected to have a crystal ball or to guess.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So Gnarlie I thought promotion worked differently at your dojo but now that you've cleared some stuff up I know better. Anyway, I was wondering, are you originally from one of the Asian countries?

 

[Gnarlie]

So Gnarlie I thought promotion worked differently at your dojo but now that you've cleared some stuff up I know better. Anyway, I was wondering, are you originally from one of the Asian countries?

No, I am originally from the UK.

 

[PhotonGuy]

No, I am originally from the UK.

I see. I don't know how it is in the UK but Im an American and Americans tend to be very goal oriented. From what I've heard about the Asian culture, its not so much like that over there.

Anyway, when in Rome do as the Romans do.

 

[Gnarlie]

I see. I don't know how it is in the UK but Im an American and Americans tend to be very goal oriented. From what I've heard about the Asian culture, its not so much like that over there.

Anyway, when in Rome do as the Romans do.

Exactly. I spend my time training with a mix of cultures but the predominant culture is Korean, and encompasses values that do not always align well with strong goal orientation. Depending on the goal.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Exactly. I spend my time training with a mix of cultures but the predominant culture is Korean, and encompasses values that do not always align well with strong goal orientation. Depending on the goal.

Well, whenever you take something from one culture and introduce it to and then incorporate it into another culture its going to change a bit and take on some of the qualities of that culture. After all, just look at Baseball in Japan.

 

[Gnarlie]

Well, whenever you take something from one culture and introduce it to and then incorporate it into another culture its going to change a bit and take on some of the qualities of that culture. After all, just look at Baseball in Japan.

I agree, but when the philosophy and values at the core of that activity are highly specific to its native culture (something which is particularly common in asian martial arts), then when one changes those values one loses the essence that makes it what it is.

That isn't so for an activity like baseball, but for anything ending in 'Do', it holds true. Maybe less so for Jutsu.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I agree, but when the philosophy and values at the core of that activity are highly specific to its native culture (something which is particularly common in asian martial arts), then when one changes those values one loses the essence that makes it what it is.

That isn't so for an activity like baseball, but for anything ending in 'Do', it holds true. Maybe less so for Jutsu.

Well it was Jitsu that came first and I actually like Jitsu over Do, just personal preference. If anything, Jitsu would be more rooted in its native culture since its older. Do came about as a modification to make it more of a sport and way of life as opposed to a method of combat and warfare.

And if one of the values of the art is not to seek the belts of rank, if the art uses belts of rank it stands to reason that students will seek them to some extent. There will be those students who make it their primary goal and become obsessed with it but I would say many students will pursue the belts somewhat. It might not be their main goal or an obsession but they will want to advance in due time. The only way to not have students with that mindset is to not have belts of rank in your system.

 

[Gnarlie]

If anything, Jitsu would be more rooted in its native culture since its older.

That does not follow logically.

Do came about as a modification to make it more of a sport and way of life as opposed to a method of combat and warfare.

That's not really correct. 'Do' just acknowledged that there was less need for actual combat and warfare in modern society, and focused on the reasons to train which remained. It didn't actively change the arts with those aims.

And if one of the values of the art is not to seek the belts of rank, if the art uses belts of rank it stands to reason that students will seek them to some extent.

I don't think it is directly a value of any art, and that's not what I have said. But arts with Buddhist, Confucian, and/or Taoist roots encourage for example traits such as good etiquette, modesty and mindfulness (in the sense if absolute concentration). Those are factors.

There will be those students who make it their primary goal and become obsessed with it but I would say many students will pursue the belts somewhat. It might not be their main goal or an obsession but they will want to advance in due time.

To those students I would encourage them to move their focus away from 'due time' and belts and on to skill, attitude and self development.

The only way to not have students with that mindset is to not have belts of rank in your system.

There is never an 'only way'. Students can be educated. That's why they are students.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I see. Well you are right how the martial arts in the USA has become Americanized. For instance, one was its been Americanized is they make a big deal about the black belt. Sometimes in the USA they make it proportionally much harder to go from brown to black than to go up other belts which I think can be a bit silly (Im using an example of a system where brown comes right before black as lots of systems are structured like that.) From what I've heard about how it is in Japan, the black belt is seen as just another belt and going from brown to black is no different than going from say, yellow to orange or green to blue other than the fact that you're dealing with a higher belt. From what I've seen, though, even instructors from Japan who are teaching in the USA will make a big deal about the black belt once they start living and teaching in America.

 

[Tez3]

From what I've heard about the Asian culture, its not so much like that over there.

'The Asian culture'? You think that it's all one culture? I take it you don't know much about Asian cultures if you can say 'over there', somewhat insulting actually.

 

[Oldbear343]

For people who continue their journey I would say it is another day of training but you also do reach a new leg, at least from my experience. After you make black belt it doesn't get easier it gets harder. For one thing, they expect more out of you at the dojo but aside from that and I would say even more profoundly you expect more out of yourself. That is why some people, after making black belt, will train even harder than they did before.

I agree. Learning to expect more from yourself and also that you can push yourself harder is an integral part of the journey, but reaching black belt is definitely a new level on the journey up the mountain....

 

[Oldbear343]

So this thread has died down a bit but some people have made some good points, particularly Gnarlie about not letting your emotions control you and about not to be overly obsessed with high belts when you first start out but rather to be focusing on what is being taught to you at the here and now. However, I don't see a problem with focusing on whatever belt is next up for you, and that includes a higher belt if you're up at that level.

I agree, as long as focusing on the next belt is a motivation to train and learn, rather than just a trophy to attain.☺

 

[Oldbear343]

At my place, and at lots of places, you start teaching as a brown belt, just as an assistant though.

Yes, it is very sound practise for those who aspire to instruct (or are chosen) to serve an apprenticeship in teaching..

 

[PhotonGuy]

'The Asian culture'? You think that it's all one culture? I take it you don't know much about Asian cultures if you can say 'over there', somewhat insulting actually.

Well than I should clarify more, the Japanese culture, a specific portion of the Asian culture. Very different from other Asian groups such as the Chinese.

And I happen to be half Asian myself so I would not insult a culture that my roots are from.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I agree, as long as focusing on the next belt is a motivation to train and learn, rather than just a trophy to attain.☺

At least where I train when you do reach a new belt you do learn more. You're taught the next kata and aside from that more is expected out of you. Based on some other posts on this board, at other dojos it might be different but that's how it is where I train.

 

[Tez3]

Well than I should clarify more, the Japanese culture, a specific portion of the Asian culture. Very different from other Asian groups such as the Chinese.

And I happen to be half Asian myself so I would not insult a culture that my roots are from.

so you think the Japanese aren't goal orientated then? Japan - Geert Hofstede