Its about the journey not the destination

[Dirty Dog]

Many of my posts and threads however are about if belts are your goal how you should pursue it.

That's simple. If belts are your goal, go buy one. There are plenty of places online that will sell you one with all the stripes and whatever you'd like.

You can now reach your goal without starting any more threads about belt-pursuit.

 

[Gnarlie]

In order to train hard and always give it my best, I don't want to train blindly.

You're not. You have an instructor to tell you which exercises to do.

 

[drop bear]

There are also going to different approaches here depending on if you want to be competitive, or if you want to live the way.

Making one approach to sound the more enlightened method there.

 

[Gnarlie]

Making one approach to sound the more enlightened method there.

Depending on your perspective. I try not to make value judgements.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That's simple. If belts are your goal, go buy one. There are plenty of places online that will sell you one with all the stripes and whatever you'd like.

How about if I would rather earn one than buy one?

 

[PhotonGuy]

So Gnarlie its been awhile since I've heard from you. You say that where you train or teach that students aren't told what the requirements for their next belt are and that you're against students being told the requirements. I was wondering some other stuff about how your place is run and your viewpoint on this.

 

[Gnarlie]

So Gnarlie its been awhile since I've heard from you. You say that where you train or teach that students aren't told what the requirements for their next belt are and that you're against students being told the requirements. I was wondering some other stuff about how your place is run and your viewpoint on this.

Such as? I'll gladly answer any questions you might have, even if we end up not seeing things the same...

 

[PhotonGuy]

Such as? I'll gladly answer any questions you might have, even if we end up not seeing things the same...

Well for one thing I was wondering if they even have tests at your dojo. Do they test students or do the instructors just promote them when they see that they're ready? You say the instructors know what the requirements are and they watch over the students and make sure they're doing it the right way so I was wondering if they even use tests or if they just promote the students when the instructors have seen that they've met the requirements.

 

[Gnarlie]

Well for one thing I was wondering if they even have tests at your dojo. Do they test students or do the instructors just promote them when they see that they're ready? You say the instructors know what the requirements are and they watch over the students and make sure they're doing it the right way so I was wondering if they even use tests or if they just promote the students when the instructors have seen that they've met the requirements.

We have tests. And the tests are thorough. People have to work to pass.

 

[PhotonGuy]

We have tests. And the tests are thorough. People have to work to pass.

I see so I get the impression that when the instructors see that a student is ready they then schedule a test for that student.

 

[Gnarlie]

I see so I get the impression that when the instructors see that a student is ready they then schedule a test for that student.

That would be an incorrect assumption.

It is the student's choice. Within reason i. e. timescale and attendance wise

 

[PhotonGuy]

That would be an incorrect assumption.

It is the student's choice.

So then the instructor tells the student they're ready to test and the student then decides if they want to test, is that how its done?

 

[Gnarlie]

So then the instructor tells the student they're ready to test and the student then decides if they want to test, is that how its done?

Tests are available on a scheduled basis subject to demand. The student decides if they are ready, and registers interest. The instructors will advise as to whether it's a good idea, but the student can make the final decision. People do fail. Which is fine, because if they go against the instructor's advice maybe they could use the leveller.

Instructors will give the advice that if what we do on a regular basis in training is a) unfamiliar or b) more than challenging, then it is not a great idea to test as you may not be ready.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Tests are available on a scheduled basis subject to demand. The student decides if they are ready, and registers interest. The instructors will advise as to whether it's a good idea, but the student can make the final decision. People do fail. Which is fine, because if they go against the instructor's advice maybe they could use the leveller.

Instructors will give the advice that if what we do on a regular basis in training is a) unfamiliar or b) more than challenging, then it is not a great idea to test as you may not be ready.

So your place sounds quite similar to mine in that tests are scheduled on a regular basis and its up to the student to ask if they're ready to test. So you must run tests ever month or every few months or on some schedule such as that and its then when students ask if they're ready. I do remember though that you said students are not told what they need to do to pass. I can see how it would make sense to not tell students exactly what will be on the test just like in academic school a teacher will not tell a student exactly what will be on an upcoming test but a teacher will at least tell the student all the material they have to study. I take it that at your place all the material covered in training is the material that will be on upcoming tests and its up to students to ask the instructors if they've learned and developed the material to an adequate level to pass.

 

[Gnarlie]

So your place sounds quite similar to mine in that tests are scheduled on a regular basis and its up to the student to ask if they're ready to test. So you must run tests ever month or every few months or on some schedule such as that and its then when students ask if they're ready.

It is up to the students to decide if they think they are ready.

I do remember though that you said students are not told what they need to do to pass.

Not directly.

I can see how it would make sense to not tell students exactly what will be on the test just like in academic school a teacher will not tell a student exactly what will be on an upcoming test but a teacher will at least tell the student all the material they have to study.

We only test them on what they do in training. They pay attention, they know what is important.

I take it that at your place all the material covered in training is the material that will be on upcoming tests

Yes. Along with application of principles associated with it.

and its up to students to ask the instructors if they've learned and developed the material to an adequate level to pass.

No. It is up to the student to decide if they are comfortable enough with their ability and the material to test. It is the test that will tell them, not the instructors.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I see, well if the instructors advise against a student testing do they tell them why they don't advise it? And if a student takes a test and fails are they told why they failed? In both cases based on some of your earlier posts I get the impression it would be considered spoon feeding.

 

[Gnarlie]

I see, well if the instructors advise against a student testing do they tell them why they don't advise it?

Yes. As in, 'You are not ready. You need to practice more.'

And if a student takes a test and fails are they told why they failed? In both cases based on some of your earlier posts I get the impression it would be considered spoon feeding.

If a student fails a test it will be abundantly clear to them why. There would be an element of the test that they were unable to demonstrate adequately on the day, and the examiner will have pushed that point, because we want to give them the opportunity to pass.

They are not tested on anything they haven't trained for, so any element where things go wrong is typically due to nerves.

 

[geezer]

The TKD school my son attends has an unusual approach to testing. The forms, techniques, sparring, etc. necessary for each level are made clear and are posted on the wall, and testing is done on the first Saturday of each month. When the student feels ready he is encouraged to test, but is told to be prepared to fail if he doesn't perform at or above the standard.

Now at this school, monthly tuition is not cheap, but tests are only $5 (the cost of the belt) and if you fail, you can re-test for free the following month or later. Consequently, it is not uncommon for students to fail. There is no shaming, just confronting the fact that they are not yet ready to move up. They are then told exactly what needs work, and have another chance to re-test get it right.

So students learn that the school is not a "belt factory" and that you have to actually earn your rank. They also learn that tests are not a money-making scam. They are assessments of your progress, and are a learning experience whether you pass or fail. They also learn to more accurately assess their own progress, and finally, they learn that it is up to them to put themselves out there and give it a go if they want to move forward.

As a parent, a professional educator, and a martial arts instructor (in a different system) I think this school has a pretty good approach.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yes. As in, 'You are not ready. You need to practice more.'



If a student fails a test it will be abundantly clear to them why. There would be an element of the test that they were unable to demonstrate adequately on the day, and the examiner will have pushed that point, because we want to give them the opportunity to pass.

They are not tested on anything they haven't trained for, so any element where things go wrong is typically due to nerves.

I see. I once saw this boy fail a black belt test when he wasn't able to break a cinder block. He tried breaking it the first time and wasn't able to and it was then one of the instructors who was on the test panel told him if he didn't break he wouldn't pass. He then hit the block again and was still not able to break it so he failed the test. He took it quite well and said he would just have to practice more and that he was confident he would pass the next time. So your tests sound quite similar, it was clear why this boy failed the test and so he would have to work on his breaking so he could pass the next time. It sounds like its much the same at your dojo.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The TKD school my son attends has an unusual approach to testing. The forms, techniques, sparring, etc. necessary for each level are made clear and are posted on the wall, and testing is done on the first Saturday of each month. When the student feels ready he is encouraged to test, but is told to be prepared to fail if he doesn't perform at or above the standard.

Now at this school, monthly tuition is not cheap, but tests are only $5 (the cost of the belt) and if you fail, you can re-test for free the following month or later. Consequently, it is not uncommon for students to fail. There is no shaming, just confronting the fact that they are not yet ready to move up. They are then told exactly what needs work, and have another chance to re-test get it right.

Well that's good. A student should be told what they need to work on if they fail although some people might say that's spoon feeding. If a student has not been told they can test or has not been promoted and they've been at their current rank for longer than average I see two reasons why that's so, either they aren't doing it right or they're not working hard enough. If they're not doing it right that's where the instructors come in, its their job to correct the student. If the student isn't working hard enough, than that's something the student has to fix.