Its about the journey not the destination

[Xue Sheng]

A College advisor is not a martial arts teacher and they are there for a different reason. Not to mention that most college advisors are not there talking about the class or what is being studied. They are there to help a student figure out a direction in college, not help them with their homework

 

[Tez3]

I would like to point out I've never heard of a college advisor telling a student to shut up and study. Students should and usually do feel comfortable about asking their advisor anything they feel they need to ask about getting a college degree and if its a good advisor, they will do a good job to make sure the student is comfortable asking such questions. An advisor who tells a student to shut up and study probably wouldn't keep their job.

College and university professors and teachers tell them to shut up tactfully.

 

[Gnarlie]

College and university courses are about learning to think in a certain way to analyse and retain information. That type of learning is supported to some extent by discussion.

Martial arts are about learning to think and behave in a certain way through actions. Absolute control of one's own body and mind. The key to understanding that is in the hard work, not in talk. The harder you work, the better you understand.

 

[pgsmith]

Actually Im pushing 40 and yes, I did start training in my main style at the age of 12, although I've had to take some time off in between.

I would like to point out I've never heard of a college advisor telling a student to shut up and study. Students should and usually do feel comfortable about asking their advisor anything they feel they need to ask about getting a college degree and if its a good advisor, they will do a good job to make sure the student is comfortable asking such questions. An advisor who tells a student to shut up and study probably wouldn't keep their job.

Sure waited a long time to start college.
People can play the anonymous game easily on internet fora, so those on the other end can only judge them by what they post. Going by your posting style and what you've posted in the past, I still think you're a teenager. I told myself I wouldn't argue, but evidently I lied.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That is highly unlikely to happen if one trains hard as per their instructor's guidance.

Working out your own problems is part of the process of maturing as a martial artist.

How about, if where the student trains you're supposed to take the initiative and sign up to test or at least ask to test without being invited. The student doesn't know that so they just keep waiting to be invited to test, they will just keep waiting and waiting and not ever test as long as they keep waiting to be invited. I know I mentioned this before but you've dodged it so Im pointing it out again.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So did you ask? When you got the answer did you embrace it and do what you were told?
If so, there you go.
If not, there you go.

I agree, but you might not get any answer if you don't ask in the first place.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Sure waited a long time to start college.
People can play the anonymous game easily on internet fora, so those on the other end can only judge them by what they post. Going by your posting style and what you've posted in the past, I still think you're a teenager. I told myself I wouldn't argue, but evidently I lied.

I finished college. You want to think Im a teenager? fine. All too often I do wish I was younger.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That is the ideal but...

...this unfortunately is simply not the case. You can come across reasonably high ranked - into the dans - practitioners that are not well rounded at all in the application of their given style.

I wish what you were saying was true but there are just too many examples out there going against this. I've come across quite a few myself and, while I don't agree with the concept of "if it ain't on Youtube, it ain't real", there are many examples on youtube of "high ranked" persons or persons holding themselves out there to be of high rank that look terrible, both with their fighting application and also with their kata "displays".

I've seen some pretty shocking examples in TKD and across numerous karate styles.

I know there are tons of dojos out there that hand out belts, or they might sell belts where if you pay them enough they will let you pass, even if you do terrible on the test. I would not go to such a dojo, though. I would only go to a dojo that required good skill for rank.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I don't follow this, is TonyD just joking or did you really not get your belt because you failed to sign a form??! No way!

Because I failed to ask for the form, fill it out, turn it in along with the fee, and take the test. I mistakenly believed, along with some of the other students, that you had to wait for the Sensei to tell you that you could take the black belt test.

Are you saying you got to brown belt and then it took you another ten or twelve years to get the black? Or that it took you ten years in total, which is a long hard grind but not unusual at all for getting a black belt at some clubs, particularly if you are throwing travel and/or work disruptions into the mix.

I got to brown high, and then from there it took me almost ten years to go up that one rank to black. Why? See above.

What were your "plans"? Did you want to get the bb or dan belt relatively quickly/early so you could get on with opening up your own school/classes at an early age (all fine if you got the skills and understand the content)?

For one thing I wanted to get a black belt before I turned 20. Getting a black belt was one of the things I wanted to do when I was a teenager.

 

[Gnarlie]

How about, if where the student trains you're supposed to take the initiative and sign up to test or at least ask to test without being invited. The student doesn't know that so they just keep waiting to be invited to test, they will just keep waiting and waiting and not ever test as long as they keep waiting to be invited. I know I mentioned this before but you've dodged it so Im pointing it out again.

Are you telling me that in all of the time it took to reach first dan, you never managed to figure this out?

All that contact with other students and black belts. All that contact with instructors and masters. All the times when instructors talk about what testing is about and what is expected. All those Kyu gradings, your own and those of others. All those opportunities in social circumstances outside of training where it could have come up in conversation. All those times when it could have been discreetly discussed without the need to directly ask the question 'Am I ready and can I test' to an instructor?

Sorry, but if you weren't aware of that by the time other people were grading, then perhaps you really weren't ready...by the time you reach first dan, you're training so often that you see your fellow trainees and instructors more than you see your family. Add to that any extracurricular socials, and there's plenty of opportunity for a socially adept young candidate to find out how the application process works.

Are you seriously telling me that no senior in your club ever gave you a nudge and asked when you intended to test? Never?

 

[Tez3]

Because I failed to ask for the form, fill it out, turn it in along with the fee, and take the test. I mistakenly believed, along with some of the other students, that you had to wait for the Sensei to tell you that you could take the black belt test.

It took ten years to work out you needed a form to grade?

 

[Gnarlie]

It took ten years to work out you needed a form to grade?

That's the too long; did not read summary of my previous post!

Something doesn't add up with this story.

Approaching 1st Dan, one should already be such an asset to one's instructor, even in a club where the initiative lies with the student, the instructor would give a nudge where a student would be potentially beneficial as a first dan. If the student is actually an asset i.e. Making the club a pleasant place to be socially for newbies, visitors and colleagues and supporting the instructor as much as possible - in other words READY on more than a technical level.

The question is what were you bringing to the table, PG?

 

[Tez3]

It took me ten years from white to black, it suited me to take my time because I had a full time job working 12hr shifts two school age children, a home to look after and a husband who went on regular deployments. I learnt a lot, not just techniques but how to compete as well as judge and to instruct. There was never a need to hurry. Some of the younger ones overtook me but they didn't boast about it, they knew my situation and in the end I think I actually know more and have more experience for taking my time.

 

[Chris Parker]

There is a relationship in that skill is required for rank.

No there isn't.

Seriously.

There is no universal requirement for rank at all. None. It doesn't matter what your idealised, romanticised, largely unrealistic beliefs are… while some systems might be purely technical in terms of rank being awarded, that's actually not even the most important aspect in many cases. If you look to traditional systems, ranking is more about hierarchy and authority within a system… which might have skill-based aspects to it… or be about time-in-system… or relationships… or political reasons… or anything else.

Your insistence on applying your own beliefs and idealised imagery on all martial arts, and dismissing anything that doesn't fit it (when challenged on this, you talk about other schools that might let you buy a belt/rank… but you'd "never train there"… doesn't matter fi you would or not, their presence shows that you're wrong… and they're not even the more important example) simply shows a real lack of being able to grasp anything that's already outside your beliefs. There's more of that coming, of course…

So somebody with a high rank is not going to get the high rank without high skills, as I've said countless times.

You can say it as many times as you want, it's both currently and historically wrong.

I would like to point out I've never heard of a college advisor telling a student to shut up and study. Students should and usually do feel comfortable about asking their advisor anything they feel they need to ask about getting a college degree and if its a good advisor, they will do a good job to make sure the student is comfortable asking such questions. An advisor who tells a student to shut up and study probably wouldn't keep their job.

Bluntly, you have not ever, and continue not to have any grasp of what "shut up and train" actually refers to… and this attempted simile of a college advisor is just idiotic. You might as well say that you've never heard of a chef telling you to shut up and cook… and you'd be wrong again.

Assuming that you're meaning a professor, or tutor, or some other form of teacher, rather than an advisor (which would at least be closer to what you're trying to say), then yeah, they do. You want this degree, you do the study. You don't just turn up and have the teacher fill out the test for you, or just give you the answers without you having done some work for it.

But that's still kinda besides the point… so I'm going to try to spell this out for you.

Shut up and train means, simply, that, if you want the skills and answers, they're not found in whining on a forum, gossiping at the school, standing around and hypothesising about it all… they're found in the physical training itself. You want to get a black belt? Stop whining and put in the work. You want the skill? Stop whining and put in the work. You want to understand this technique? Stop standing around talking about what you think it might be, and do it.

Martial arts are "doing" things. Do them.

And, yes, I know this is some psychosis from your past, and you can't do anything about it now, although frankly what you can do (and should) is to let it go… you're never going to change it, and you're never going to get past it otherwise… but you keep bringing it up.

I get it. You wanted to get your black belt in your timetable. You didn't. The reason doesn't matter. You might have known about the form, asking, or whatever bureaucratic lunacy you're blaming, and still not gotten it in your schedule. Deal with it, get over it, and move on.

Seriously, dude.

Shut up and train.

 

[Danny T]

I agree, but you might not get any answer if you don't ask in the first place.

My question that you didn't answer was, "So did you ask?"

There is a relationship in that skill is required for rank. So somebody with a high rank is not going to get the high rank without high skills, as I've said countless times.

No not really.
I was recently awarded the 2nd highest level one can achieve within a system and organization because of my time and continued support throughout the past 30 years. I continue to teach and bring in highly skill members to the system. My personal skills/abilities have waned over the years due to injuries and age.

 

[pgsmith]

I finished college. You want to think Im a teenager? fine. All too often I do wish I was younger.

If that's the case, the fact that a man of your (supposed) age and experience can be mistaken for a teenager in your way of thinking and expressing yourself indicates much deeper problems. You should get professional help for that in my opinion. It would do you much more good than endless invalid arguments in a martial arts forum.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Are you telling me that in all of the time it took to reach first dan, you never managed to figure this out?

All that contact with other students and black belts. All that contact with instructors and masters. All the times when instructors talk about what testing is about and what is expected. All those Kyu gradings, your own and those of others. All those opportunities in social circumstances outside of training where it could have come up in conversation. All those times when it could have been discreetly discussed without the need to directly ask the question 'Am I ready and can I test' to an instructor?

Sorry, but if you weren't aware of that by the time other people were grading, then perhaps you really weren't ready...by the time you reach first dan, you're training so often that you see your fellow trainees and instructors more than you see your family. Add to that any extracurricular socials, and there's plenty of opportunity for a socially adept young candidate to find out how the application process works.

Are you seriously telling me that no senior in your club ever gave you a nudge and asked when you intended to test? Never?

The reason it took me so long to figure this out is because I didn't as the head instructor.

 

[PhotonGuy]

My question that you didn't answer was, "So did you ask?"

No I didn't. A mistake on my part.

No not really.
I was recently awarded the 2nd highest level one can achieve within a system and organization because of my time and continued support throughout the past 30 years. I continue to teach and bring in highly skill members to the system. My personal skills/abilities have waned over the years due to injuries and age.

In some systems, the ranks beyond 5th degree are earned not through testing and not through skill but rather through how much you put into the art, how much you contribute to the art, how well you teach the art, ect. Not all systems might be like that but I know some are such as my main system. So personal skills and abilities don't come into play when earning really high ranks at least with some systems.

 

[PhotonGuy]

No there isn't.

Seriously.

There is no universal requirement for rank at all. None. It doesn't matter what your idealised, romanticised, largely unrealistic beliefs are… while some systems might be purely technical in terms of rank being awarded, that's actually not even the most important aspect in many cases. If you look to traditional systems, ranking is more about hierarchy and authority within a system… which might have skill-based aspects to it… or be about time-in-system… or relationships… or political reasons… or anything else.

Your insistence on applying your own beliefs and idealised imagery on all martial arts, and dismissing anything that doesn't fit it (when challenged on this, you talk about other schools that might let you buy a belt/rank… but you'd "never train there"… doesn't matter fi you would or not, their presence shows that you're wrong… and they're not even the more important example) simply shows a real lack of being able to grasp anything that's already outside your beliefs. There's more of that coming, of course…

At my dojo good skill is required for rank. I can't speak for other dojos but at my dojo you're not going to advance in rank if you don't have the required skill.

 

[PhotonGuy]

It took ten years to work out you needed a form to grade?

No it took me close to ten years to figure out that I had to register for the test and take the test without being asked first.