Its about the journey not the destination

[PhotonGuy]

It took me ten years from white to black, it suited me to take my time because I had a full time job working 12hr shifts two school age children, a home to look after and a husband who went on regular deployments. I learnt a lot, not just techniques but how to compete as well as judge and to instruct. There was never a need to hurry. Some of the younger ones overtook me but they didn't boast about it, they knew my situation and in the end I think I actually know more and have more experience for taking my time.

Its not uncommon for it to take ten years time total for a person to get a black belt if you start counting from day one. You have your own reasons why it took you ten years, you were very busy with lots of other stuff going on.

For people to bypass you in rank, its nothing to boast about. Everybody has their reasons why they might advance faster or slower.

What I think is ridiculous though, is for somebody who wants to advance, for them to take ten years to go up just one rank. For it to take somebody ten years to go from brown to black is a bit absurd.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If that's the case, the fact that a man of your (supposed) age and experience can be mistaken for a teenager in your way of thinking and expressing yourself indicates much deeper problems. You should get professional help for that in my opinion. It would do you much more good than endless invalid arguments in a martial arts forum.

As a matter of fact posting here and getting responses here has helped me out a great deal.

 

[Dirty Dog]

No it took me close to ten years to figure out that I had to register for the test and take the test without being asked first.

Ok... So you're a little slow on the uptake. We get that. Believe me, we are all abundantly clear on that.
So do you really need to whine about your deficiencies for ten years?



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Ok... So you're a little slow on the uptake. We get that. Believe me, we are all abundantly clear on that.
So do you really need to whine about your deficiencies for ten years?

There were some people on this thread asking and I was explaining. And are you saying I was deficient?

 

[Gnarlie]

The reason it took me so long to figure this out is because I didn't as the head instructor.

You are missing the point. Go back and read my post again.

My point is, there are a myriad of opportunities to obtain this information WITHOUT asking the instructor.

If you are a well liked and technically capable student, other people will push you forward, will ask you when you are planning to test. How did this not happen to you in ten years??

 

[Gnarlie]

As a matter of fact posting here and getting responses here has helped me out a great deal.

If you are not going to read and address the points people make, I very much doubt that.

 

[Zero]

As a matter of fact posting here and getting responses here has helped me out a great deal.

I hope it has, I really do! Look PGSmith may have come on a bit harsh but he is actually trying to be positive and helpful I think. I have to confess, I took you to be much, much younger also from many of your posts and the form of your responses. I find it hard to reconcile to you saying you are around 40 years old. I am not having a go at you at all, I am just pointing that out.

 

[Zero]

I know there are tons of dojos out there that hand out belts, or they might sell belts where if you pay them enough they will let you pass, even if you do terrible on the test. I would not go to such a dojo, though. I would only go to a dojo that required good skill for rank.

Look, I think there may be another angle here.

First off, I find it a terrible mix of black humour and tragedy that you didn't move up from brown to black for like ten years, all because of some misunderstanding about having to register to do so. It is very hard to believe that a student capable of reaching brown belt would be spinning his cogs for ten years without the sensei coming over to him and asking questions. To me something doesn't add up there.

But my bigger concern is what the hell was the sensei (and possibly his senior assistants) thinking? What was his game? It seems poor form (almost tantamount to robbing you of your monthly subs) that he had a student who had made it to brown belt level and that he let them continue to come to class but spin their wheels for TEN years without going to them and saying, "yo, homes, wot up? Why you never registered or filled in that form to go up to black belt, don't you wanna grade, are you happy just putting in the hard work and hours, because if you are, that's cool but I would just like to know???"

If your sensei and club was that disinterested in a student's progression, I would be thinking about putting them at a level possibly worse in some respects than your black belt conveyor belt schools and mcdojos.

 

[Zero]

At my dojo good skill is required for rank. I can't speak for other dojos but at my dojo you're not going to advance in rank if you don't have the required skill.

No, it sounds like at your school what was required is filling in a form and registering for the rank.

Right?

Otherwise, if you had the skill to get to brown at your school and had soaked up more skill and understanding from being there for an additional ten years on top of that, you should have been graded up to black in any event!

 

[PhotonGuy]

You are missing the point. Go back and read my post again.

My point is, there are a myriad of opportunities to obtain this information WITHOUT asking the instructor.

If you are a well liked and technically capable student, other people will push you forward, will ask you when you are planning to test. How did this not happen to you in ten years??

Many of the students and even some of the assistant instructors mistakenly believed that you had to get approval by the head instructor to test for the black belt before you could test. For the lower belts you didn't have to get the head instructor's approval but the mistaken belief that you had to get his approval to test for black belt was a longstanding myth in my dojo.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I hope it has, I really do! Look PGSmith may have come on a bit harsh but he is actually trying to be positive and helpful I think. I have to confess, I took you to be much, much younger also from many of your posts and the form of your responses. I find it hard to reconcile to you saying you are around 40 years old. I am not having a go at you at all, I am just pointing that out.

I take what PGSmith says, and what a lot of other people here say, with a grain of salt. As it was I thought PGSmith got tired of what I was saying and had put me on ignore but supposedly he's taken me off since he's directly responding to my posts. If you thought I was much younger than I am that's fine, I once thought Tez was much younger than she was. I often do wish I was younger.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Look, I think there may be another angle here.

First off, I find it a terrible mix of black humour and tragedy that you didn't move up from brown to black for like ten years, all because of some misunderstanding about having to register to do so. It is very hard to believe that a student capable of reaching brown belt would be spinning his cogs for ten years without the sensei coming over to him and asking questions. To me something doesn't add up there.

But my bigger concern is what the hell was the sensei (and possibly his senior assistants) thinking? What was his game? It seems poor form (almost tantamount to robbing you of your monthly subs) that he had a student who had made it to brown belt level and that he let them continue to come to class but spin their wheels for TEN years without going to them and saying, "yo, homes, wot up? Why you never registered or filled in that form to go up to black belt, don't you wanna grade, are you happy just putting in the hard work and hours, because if you are, that's cool but I would just like to know???"

If your sensei and club was that disinterested in a student's progression, I would be thinking about putting them at a level possibly worse in some respects than your black belt conveyor belt schools and mcdojos.

Some people don't care about advancing any further in rank and if you're one of those students the sensei won't say anything about it. I know a student who is at low brown which is three ranks lower than black and he's been at that rank for many years and he says he doesn't care to advance any further, he just wants to keep coming to class to get better in general but he doesn't care for rank anymore. My sensei doesn't push him to test for rank because he respects it if a student doesn't care to test, so if you don't ask to test the sensei won't say anything about it, he will just assume that you don't care to test.

I am actually going to make reference, believe it or not to something Dirty Dog has said that some students just care about skill not rank and those students my sensei does not push to test. My dojo really helps students to develop skill but if you want rank aside from having adequate skill you also have to test which not all students do. Some students just don't care to test.

So if a student is spinning their cogs for ten years my dojo will definitely help them develop skill, but rank also requires testing.

As for caring about rank vs caring about skill, I care about both, at least at my dojo. I don't care much about rank from other dojos, certainly not dojos that I don't attend.

 

[PhotonGuy]

No, it sounds like at your school what was required is filling in a form and registering for the rank.

Right?

Otherwise, if you had the skill to get to brown at your school and had soaked up more skill and understanding from being there for an additional ten years on top of that, you should have been graded up to black in any event!

No you fill in the form to register to test. Then you have to do good enough on the test to pass and only then do you get the rank. Students do fail. It doesn't matter how good your skill is, you aren't going to go up in rank if you don't pass the test, and passing a test would obviously require taking it in the first place.

 

[Gnarlie]

Many of the students and even some of the assistant instructors mistakenly believed that you had to get approval by the head instructor to test for the black belt before you could test. For the lower belts you didn't have to get the head instructor's approval but the mistaken belief that you had to get his approval to test for black belt was a longstanding myth in my dojo.

What about the people who had already done the test? Why not ask someone who has been through it?

Were you the only person with this problem?

Why didn't you ask how the process works? Instead of 'can I test', or 'when can I test', perhaps a pertinent but less direct and more fitting question would be 'how does the testing process work here?'.

I still view this as a problem of your own creation.

 

[Geo]

Hi guys

After 273 replies this thread is going nowhere. If anyone bothered to actually read the original post before posting a reply one would perhaps be more inclined with PG regarding the martial arts journey. Does any one really object or disagree with martial arts being the journey and not so much the destination?

A lot of mud has been slung, a lot of integrity questioned, a lot characters shot down. All these without a shred of hesitation, courtesy and self control. As martial artists do we want to personify the resultant flaws that we endeavour to overcome through the practice of philosophical aspects of our art? How we have behaved towards PG is nothing short of mobocracy (in my books). If we teach martial arts is this a practice that we wish to impart to our students?

PG is standing in a soap box articulating issues that are very personal to him and perhaps in his view relevant to the martial arts community. All of us in this forum have two options; one stop and debate PG or, two stop, listen (in this case look/read) and move on. If members stop and debate PG he will stay on his soap box if we move on ..well.. the result is obvious.

In my dojang I teach hosinsul (self defence) first rule I teach is to avoid situations which may compromise your person, in every sense of the word. We don't get paid to break our faces and spirit like those poor souls at the UFC. So if we believe that we may potentially be spiritually aggrieved by lingering in this thread do we really want to linger?

Avoidance - staying away from people, places and things that can get you hurt or get you in trouble.

Have a great day everyone!

 

[Zero]

Some people don't care about advancing any further in rank and if you're one of those students the sensei won't say anything about it. I know a student who is at low brown which is three ranks lower than black and he's been at that rank for many years and he says he doesn't care to advance any further, he just wants to keep coming to class to get better in general but he doesn't care for rank anymore. My sensei doesn't push him to test for rank because he respects it if a student doesn't care to test, so if you don't ask to test the sensei won't say anything about it, he will just assume that you don't care to test.

I am actually going to make reference, believe it or not to something Dirty Dog has said that some students just care about skill not rank and those students my sensei does not push to test. My dojo really helps students to develop skill but if you want rank aside from having adequate skill you also have to test which not all students do. Some students just don't care to test.

So if a student is spinning their cogs for ten years my dojo will definitely help them develop skill, but rank also requires testing.

As for caring about rank vs caring about skill, I care about both, at least at my dojo. I don't care much about rank from other dojos, certainly not dojos that I don't attend.

I'm sorry but I cannot follow the logic here. You have put yourself forward as a prime example of someone who was spinning their clogs with respect to the grading/rank side of things and who wanted very much so to be graded up.

That is very different to someone also at a similar rank but that was very happy not to focus on the belt/grade side of things.

Your club was not at all helpful to you - it appears they did not once say, hey, by the way, just letting you know if you want to progress in rank, you need to fill in a form and register. The fact that no senior or the school head/owner once took the time over ten years to discuss what your desires and goals were, reeks of a place that has no real interest in their members or their members' development. Now, I'm not a school owner or sensei but have trained many junior students and actually a lot of seniors and I don't just assume what the student's desire or goal is or even if they comprehend what I am teaching. I watch their execution to see if they really understand, I spar with them to test their ability and talk with them. Seems like your sensei wasn't doing any talking/communication...now, this could be understandable if it was a huge/McDojo class so there no time to discuss things or focus on the individual from time to time...

Sorry but that's my take on this.

 

[Zero]

Hi guys

After 273 replies this thread is going nowhere. If anyone bothered to actually read the original post before posting a reply one would perhaps be more inclined with PG regarding the martial arts journey. Does any one really object or disagree with martial arts being the journey and not so much the destination?

A lot of mud has been slung, a lot of integrity questioned, a lot characters shot down. All these without a shred of hesitation, courtesy and self control. As martial artists do we want to personify the resultant flaws that we endeavour to overcome through the practice of philosophical aspects of our art? How we have behaved towards PG is nothing short of mobocracy (in my books). If we teach martial arts is this a practice that we wish to impart to our students?

PG is standing in a soap box articulating issues that are very personal to him and perhaps in his view relevant to the martial arts community. All of us in this forum have two options; one stop and debate PG or, two stop, listen (in this case look/read) and move on. If members stop and debate PG he will stay on his soap box if we move on ..well.. the result is obvious.

In my dojang I teach hosinsul (self defence) first rule I teach is to avoid situations which may compromise your person, in every sense of the word. We don't get paid to break our faces and spirit like those poor souls at the UFC. So if we believe that we may potentially be spiritually aggrieved by lingering in this thread do we really want to linger?

Avoidance - staying away from people, places and things that can get you hurt or get you in trouble.

Have a great day everyone!

Thanks Geo, sound words of wisdom here.

That said, personally, I am not suffering any hurt whatsoever (not on a spiritual level or otherwise), I don't see the need to "avoid" and don't even see this as a confrontation, more like an extended dialogue, primarily with PG. PG himself/herself has stated, surprisingly (or not) as it may seem, that this (what you may call) soapbox diatribe is actually of some benefit to him/her.

Maybe, the opposite to your approach is what is required. Maybe we owe PG more, more than just moving on. Maybe we owe it to PG to keep up this discussion, in the hope that someday PG will see some sense in what many of the posters on this thread are saying. Now, that may be a less than hopeless case - but that is just when hope is needed most.

As an aside, I don't even know what you are referencing when you talk about philosophical aspects of our arts. My art has no spiritual or philosophical side, it is about being a better fighter, and I tailor that myself to ring competition and separately for SD. If I am sitting cross legged on tatami in front of some incense, it's only to clear my mind better to comprehend some teachings or to prepare for a fight to come. The only times we get philosophical is about things like "man, you sure got hurt that time"..."yeah, people can get hurt when they fight, huh, imagine that".

peace

 

[Zero]

...and passing a test would obviously require taking it in the first place.

Not always, sometimes not taking the test (or in your case, failing to take the test) is the test in itself.

Oss

 

[PhotonGuy]

What about the people who had already done the test? Why not ask someone who has been through it?

I do know that some of the people who had taken the test had asked the Sensei if they were ready prior to taking the test. I didn't find that out until after I had learned that you didn't have to be invited to take the test. The reason I didn't ask Sensei that was because its sometimes considered disrespectful, as some of the people on this board have pointed out.

Were you the only person with this problem?

I do know of one other student who, like me, was waiting to be told he could test. He found out that you didn't have to be invited to test around the same time I did.

Why didn't you ask how the process works? Instead of 'can I test', or 'when can I test', perhaps a pertinent but less direct and more fitting question would be 'how does the testing process work here?'.

I still view this as a problem of your own creation.

That does make sense, perhaps I didn't think to ask that or perhaps I was afraid to.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Your club was not at all helpful to you - it appears they did not once say, hey, by the way, just letting you know if you want to progress in rank, you need to fill in a form and register. The fact that no senior or the school head/owner once took the time over ten years to discuss what your desires and goals were, reeks of a place that has no real interest in their members or their members' development. Now, I'm not a school owner or sensei but have trained many junior students and actually a lot of seniors and I don't just assume what the student's desire or goal is or even if they comprehend what I am teaching. I watch their execution to see if they really understand, I spar with them to test their ability and talk with them. Seems like your sensei wasn't doing any talking/communication...now, this could be understandable if it was a huge/McDojo class so there no time to discuss things or focus on the individual from time to time...

You could say that there was some lack of communication at my dojo in regards to what you just pointed out. My Sensei is from Japan so there is the language and cultural barrier. But, communication also involves the student, the student has to play their part too in terms of communication for it to work.