Its about the journey not the destination

[PhotonGuy]

Not always, sometimes not taking the test (or in your case, failing to take the test) is the test in itself.

Oss

I guess you could say that, but if you fail to take the test, that's certainly not passing its failing.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yes..... but failing to take the test would be defined as "neglecting to do something". Failing the test would be defined as "being unsuccessful in achieving one's goal"

 

[Chris Parker]

At my dojo good skill is required for rank. I can't speak for other dojos but at my dojo you're not going to advance in rank if you don't have the required skill.

Well, you seem to have missed pretty much everything I said there, but I'm going to throw another spanner in the works here…

What makes you think that "good skill" is required at your dojo? How do you know what "good skill" is?

What I think is ridiculous though, is for somebody who wants to advance, for them to take ten years to go up just one rank. For it to take somebody ten years to go from brown to black is a bit absurd.

Maybe they are just, well, not good enough.

Here's the thing… you (generic "you") might want to advance… but, if you're not advancing, perhaps it's because you're just not good enough. Not everyone is, after all…

As a matter of fact posting here and getting responses here has helped me out a great deal.

How? I'm genuinely curious here… as it's not the type of "help" that Paul was suggesting you need… I mean… this is one of about half a dozen threads you've had on these ideas… over the last two years or more… and you've never really shown any change, growth, or broadening of your grasp of what's been said, or your own concepts and understandings in all that time. So, how has it helped? It really doesn't look like it's done anything at all.

Many of the students and even some of the assistant instructors mistakenly believed that you had to get approval by the head instructor to test for the black belt before you could test. For the lower belts you didn't have to get the head instructor's approval but the mistaken belief that you had to get his approval to test for black belt was a longstanding myth in my dojo.

Needing approval is not the same as not being able to broach the subject. For instance, if my guys want to grade, they'll ask me what they need to work on for their next assessment… or if they can be assessed (note: assessed, not graded). I can (and have) said to them that they're not in a position to be assessed yet… in other words, not given approval… but I have also told them what needs to be worked on for them to be ready.

I take what PGSmith says, and what a lot of other people here say, with a grain of salt.

I suggest you don't. Instead, I suggest you take each comment as being more of a "tough love" response… something that, ideally, is meant to be taken to heart. To take them with "a grain of salt" is to miss much of the intended message.

Some people don't care about advancing any further in rank and if you're one of those students the sensei won't say anything about it. I know a student who is at low brown which is three ranks lower than black and he's been at that rank for many years and he says he doesn't care to advance any further, he just wants to keep coming to class to get better in general but he doesn't care for rank anymore. My sensei doesn't push him to test for rank because he respects it if a student doesn't care to test, so if you don't ask to test the sensei won't say anything about it, he will just assume that you don't care to test.

I am actually going to make reference, believe it or not to something Dirty Dog has said that some students just care about skill not rank and those students my sensei does not push to test. My dojo really helps students to develop skill but if you want rank aside from having adequate skill you also have to test which not all students do. Some students just don't care to test.

So if a student is spinning their cogs for ten years my dojo will definitely help them develop skill, but rank also requires testing.

As for caring about rank vs caring about skill, I care about both, at least at my dojo. I don't care much about rank from other dojos, certainly not dojos that I don't attend.

None of this has anything to do with you and your situation as you have presented it… and is filled, as usual, with your assumptions that often fall down in the face of reality.

Hi guys

Hi Geo.

After 273 replies this thread is going nowhere. If anyone bothered to actually read the original post before posting a reply one would perhaps be more inclined with PG regarding the martial arts journey. Does any one really object or disagree with martial arts being the journey and not so much the destination?

Look, I'm going to say a few things here… I'm not sure how much you've followed PGs posts (or this thread, really), but there are a number of reasons that the thread went the way it did… and, as far as the OP itself, that was PG attempting to express what he's been told, with little to no real grasp of the concepts he's talking about… instead, more parroting what he's heard… which is why you had people on the first page asking why he was posting it (a question, a statement… ?).

A lot of mud has been slung, a lot of integrity questioned, a lot characters shot down. All these without a shred of hesitation, courtesy and self control. As martial artists do we want to personify the resultant flaws that we endeavour to overcome through the practice of philosophical aspects of our art? How we have behaved towards PG is nothing short of mobocracy (in my books). If we teach martial arts is this a practice that we wish to impart to our students?

Believe me, there has been plenty of courtesy and self control… but, after going through the same thing many, many times over with the OP, it has been found that bluntness is the only way to communicate and get any form of response. Is it optimal? Maybe… or maybe not. However, nothing else has worked, or even come close to working.

I would also ask, though, what you are identifying as the "philosophical aspect of our art"? I mean… how would you know what such aspects of my arts are, for instance? Even then, would you not agree that finding the most effective way of dealing with a situation is within martial arts philosophy? Or that the idea of facing reality is part of it?

Can you see how the idea of pacifistic fantasy, we should all get along ideals are actually not much to do with actual martial arts, no matter how much people like to think they are?

PG is standing in a soap box articulating issues that are very personal to him and perhaps in his view relevant to the martial arts community. All of us in this forum have two options; one stop and debate PG or, two stop, listen (in this case look/read) and move on. If members stop and debate PG he will stay on his soap box if we move on ..well.. the result is obvious.

This is a discussion forum. Are you seriously suggesting that we don't engage in discussion?

In my dojang I teach hosinsul (self defence) first rule I teach is to avoid situations which may compromise your person, in every sense of the word. We don't get paid to break our faces and spirit like those poor souls at the UFC. So if we believe that we may potentially be spiritually aggrieved by lingering in this thread do we really want to linger?

"Those poor souls at the UFC"?? "Spiritually aggrieved"??

Right…

Avoidance - staying away from people, places and things that can get you hurt or get you in trouble.

Have a great day everyone!

Sure.

 

[Tgace]

What I think is ridiculous though, is for somebody who wants to advance, for them to take ten years to go up just one rank. For it to take somebody ten years to go from brown to black is a bit absurd.

Maybe this has been addressed upthread, but Im too lazy to dig through it.

Are we talking about a school that makes EVERYONE take that long to advance? Is this some sort of money making scam to hold paying students for as long as possible?

Or are we discussing a single person (or two or three) who just cant pass promotional tests?

 

[Tgace]

This is a discussion forum. Are you seriously suggesting that we don't engage in discussion?

Well...there can be some confusion between discussion, argument and lecturing around here sometimes.

 

[RowdyAz]

Too true, some very knowledgeable martial artists on here whom look down on anyone that doesn't see things there way and speak fluently as though to intellectual for the average student. Still I remain unfazed and read all such posts with a grin and feel deeply for these wisemen who in there minds have seen it all and they loathe peasants like me.

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

 

[PhotonGuy]

Well, you seem to have missed pretty much everything I said there, but I'm going to throw another spanner in the works here…

What makes you think that "good skill" is required at your dojo? How do you know what "good skill" is?

I've been training in the martial arts for more than a score, most of the training has been done at my primary dojo but I've been to multiple other dojos and I've seen what their standards are. My dojo has very high standards for advancement compared to most of the other dojos I've been to. I've also been to many tournaments where many students from many other dojos compete. Students at my dojo tend to do very well against students of other dojos. Also, there are students who start out at other dojos and then transfer to my dojo and at my dojo they say that advancement is harder and that they get more out of training at my dojo than they did at their former dojos. So that is what I base my judgement of good skill on, how my dojo matches up to many of the other dojos that I've visited or attended or have seen performances of from their students.

Maybe they are just, well, not good enough.

Here's the thing… you (generic "you") might want to advance… but, if you're not advancing, perhaps it's because you're just not good enough. Not everyone is, after all…

Than you need work. If you're not good enough that's where hard work comes in, so you can make yourself good enough.

How? I'm genuinely curious here… as it's not the type of "help" that Paul was suggesting you need… I mean… this is one of about half a dozen threads you've had on these ideas… over the last two years or more… and you've never really shown any change, growth, or broadening of your grasp of what's been said, or your own concepts and understandings in all that time. So, how has it helped? It really doesn't look like it's done anything at all.

Well I have gone though change and growth from posting on these boards and from some of the responses. Whether or not you've seen it is a different story.

Needing approval is not the same as not being able to broach the subject. For instance, if my guys want to grade, they'll ask me what they need to work on for their next assessment… or if they can be assessed (note: assessed, not graded). I can (and have) said to them that they're not in a position to be assessed yet… in other words, not given approval… but I have also told them what needs to be worked on for them to be ready.

Well that's good. In this case I do agree with your methods. There is no reason why a student shouldn't be able to ask what they need to work on or if they can be assessed. And if they aren't assessed than they should know why they weren't given approval which as you just pointed out, you tell them why.

Failure or not being ready isn't necessarily a bad thing, what's bad is if you don't know why you've failed or why you're not ready.

I suggest you don't. Instead, I suggest you take each comment as being more of a "tough love" response… something that, ideally, is meant to be taken to heart. To take them with "a grain of salt" is to miss much of the intended message.

I take it as I see it. I've come to the point where I've realized its not worth it to get worked up over what people say on the internet.

None of this has anything to do with you and your situation as you have presented it… and is filled, as usual, with your assumptions that often fall down in the face of reality.

I was just explaining out how my dojo is run by the head instructor.

I would also like to point out that many people might find some of your posts to be offensive. As for me, like I said Im past the point of getting worked up over what somebody says on the internet, its simply not worth it, but other people will no doubt get offended by some of your posts.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yes..... but failing to take the test would be defined as "neglecting to do something". Failing the test would be defined as "being unsuccessful in achieving one's goal"

How about if there are certain prerequisites that must be met before you can take the test?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Maybe this has been addressed upthread, but Im too lazy to dig through it.

Are we talking about a school that makes EVERYONE take that long to advance? Is this some sort of money making scam to hold paying students for as long as possible?

Or are we discussing a single person (or two or three) who just cant pass promotional tests?

We're discussing the latter.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Well...there can be some confusion between discussion, argument and lecturing around here sometimes.

True enough, especially when its done on message boards and not face to face.

 

[Xue Sheng]

How about if there are certain prerequisites that must be met before you can take the test?

Then that is "neglecting to do something"

 

[Tez3]

No it took me close to ten years to figure out that I had to register for the test and take the test without being asked first.

That's what I said.

 

[Geo]

Hi guys sorry for this, teething problem. Please see my replies below. Thanks.

 

[Geo]

Thanks Geo, sound words of wisdom here.

That said, personally, I am not suffering any hurt whatsoever (not on a spiritual level or otherwise), I don't see the need to "avoid" and don't even see this as a confrontation, more like an extended dialogue, primarily with PG. PG himself/herself has stated, surprisingly (or not) as it may seem, that this (what you may call) soapbox diatribe is actually of some benefit to him/her.

peace

Hi Zero, first of all apologies if I have suggested that this forum is confronting. Perhaps due to the nature of the discussion a late comer to the fora may be justified in believing that, nevertheless thanks for the clarification.

As you said PG's rants are diatribes, however it won't be diatribes if it misses its mark. I'm sure you are well versed in the efficacy of strikes in our art which are rendered useless if it doesn't land. Perhaps PGs rants have hit its mark/s in someway and have exposed some of us (me included).

As an aside, I don't even know what you are referencing when you talk about philosophical aspects of our arts. My art has no spiritual or philosophical side, it is about being a better fighter, and I tailor that myself to ring competition and separately for SD. If I am sitting cross legged on tatami in front of some incense, it's only to clear my mind better to comprehend some teachings or to prepare for a fight to come. The only times we get philosophical is about things like "man, you sure got hurt that time"..."yeah, people can get hurt when they fight, huh, imagine that".

Once again my apologies for the generalisation. I'm sure that whatever martial art you practice, you subscribe to a guiding principle that keeps you seeking higher skills in your chosen art. Our mental picture of martial arts philosophy is what Master Po dished out to young Kwai Chang or Miyagi San to Daniel they aren't too far off the mark. In my opinion there are two kinds of martial artists who who advocates preservation and another who brings destruction. The Taijitu brings these two opposing forces together in harmony and balance, one cannot exist without the other. Peace.

 

[Geo]

Believe me, there has been plenty of courtesy and self control… but, after going through the same thing many, many times over with the OP, it has been found that bluntness is the only way to communicate and get any form of response. Is it optimal? Maybe… or maybe not. However, nothing else has worked, or even come close to working.

Hi Master Chris

Thanks for that. As far as dealing with OP or PG is concerned I didn't mean to be to prescriptive about it. Mine was simply a suggestion however if the community sees it fit to adopt an stronger approach when communicating with OP or PG then by all means I won't stand it the way

I would also ask, though, what you are identifying as the "philosophical aspect of our art"? I mean… how would you know what such aspects of my arts are, for instance? Even then, would you not agree that finding the most effective way of dealing with a situation is within martial arts philosophy? Or that the idea of facing reality is part of it?

Can you see how the idea of pacifistic fantasy, we should all get along ideals are actually not much to do with actual martial arts, no matter how much people like to think they are?

I didn't mean to second guess the aspects of your chosen martial art. I'm sure that whatever martial art you practice, you were taught, shown or even indoctrinated with a guiding principle that keeps you seeking higher skills in your chosen art including how to deal with any situation in real life.

I don't want to get to cliche'ed here for fear of being laughed out of the forum as I'm sure some of you are already snickering at my comments, that's alright though. I never suggested 'pacifism' but in practicing your art haven't you developed a thought system that dictates an attitude of rationality in face of any situation, whatever your course of action is? To me that separates us from lower order beings whose instincts are primal not rational.

This is a discussion forum. Are you seriously suggesting that we don't engage in discussion?

No sir not at all. However we can opt to keep it moving productively.

Avoidance - staying away from people, places and things that can get you hurt or get you in trouble.

Master Chris with all due respect, allow me to quote the above once again. Perhaps its the community where I live that gives rise to that and as a martial arts teacher I stand by that philosophy.

You and I both know that in our environment here in Australia we don't so much fear for our lives, we don't so much live under a dark cloud that a person with a gun will suddenly shoot and kill others in a public place, we don't so much fear that the person sitting beside us on the train or in the bus will stick a knife up us...YET!!!!

That perhaps is why as a teacher I choose to concentrate on life skills through martial arts and combine that with the combative aspects harmoniously.

Thank you for time. It's a nice day today good for fish and chips please have a great day.

 

[Tez3]

Hi guys

After 273 replies this thread is going nowhere. If anyone bothered to actually read the original post before posting a reply one would perhaps be more inclined with PG regarding the martial arts journey. Does any one really object or disagree with martial arts being the journey and not so much the destination?

A lot of mud has been slung, a lot of integrity questioned, a lot characters shot down. All these without a shred of hesitation, courtesy and self control. As martial artists do we want to personify the resultant flaws that we endeavour to overcome through the practice of philosophical aspects of our art? How we have behaved towards PG is nothing short of mobocracy (in my books). If we teach martial arts is this a practice that we wish to impart to our students?

PG is standing in a soap box articulating issues that are very personal to him and perhaps in his view relevant to the martial arts community. All of us in this forum have two options; one stop and debate PG or, two stop, listen (in this case look/read) and move on. If members stop and debate PG he will stay on his soap box if we move on ..well.. the result is obvious.

And yes I read your last post.
In my dojang I teach hosinsul (self defence) first rule I teach is to avoid situations which may compromise your person, in every sense of the word. We don't get paid to break our faces and spirit like those poor souls at the UFC. So if we believe that we may potentially be spiritually aggrieved by lingering in this thread do we really want to linger?

Avoidance - staying away from people, places and things that can get you hurt or get you in trouble.

Have a great day everyone!

Whoa, hold your horses here, you are jumping to some pretty big conclusions here.
Most of us read the original post when it first went up, there has also been similar posts by the OP.
It sounds a fine thing coming on castigate people for what you think you have read but you are reading it wrong, no mud has been flung, characters haven't been shot down and I would seriously suggest you read as many of PG's threads and get to know his online character as we have before you start making accusations we are 'mobbing' him.
As for you UFC comment, really? is that how you respect other martial artists?
As for being 'spiritually aggrieved', I 've no idea what that means but I'm pretty sure it applies to no one here, far from it we persevere with PG because we do actually want his questions answered so that he can understand better, I assume you don't know why he has problems in this direction because unlike us you have just jumped in feet first , sized up the situation incorrectly and come up with the rubbish you have.
yes I read your last post.

 

[Chris Parker]

I've been training in the martial arts for more than a score, most of the training has been done at my primary dojo but I've been to multiple other dojos and I've seen what their standards are. My dojo has very high standards for advancement compared to most of the other dojos I've been to. I've also been to many tournaments where many students from many other dojos compete. Students at my dojo tend to do very well against students of other dojos. Also, there are students who start out at other dojos and then transfer to my dojo and at my dojo they say that advancement is harder and that they get more out of training at my dojo than they did at their former dojos. So that is what I base my judgement of good skill on, how my dojo matches up to many of the other dojos that I've visited or attended or have seen performances of from their students.

Okay, so comparative observation. Cool. However, that's not quite what I was getting at… I was more wondering how you would be able to tell what "good skills" are if seen independent of contrast or comparative examples. What I mean is… if I was to show just a single clip, devoid of ranking or description, could you say if it was good or not? And how would you base such an observation?

Than you need work. If you're not good enough that's where hard work comes in, so you can make yourself good enough.

You've missed the point. The simple reality is that some people, no matter how much they work, will never be at the skill level of "black belt" (depending on the organisation and system, of course). Sadly, it's not just a matter of "well, they have to work harder". If you don't have it, in some cases, you just don't have it.

Well I have gone though change and growth from posting on these boards and from some of the responses. Whether or not you've seen it is a different story.

Okay. To be frank, no, it doesn't show.

Well that's good. In this case I do agree with your methods. There is no reason why a student shouldn't be able to ask what they need to work on or if they can be assessed. And if they aren't assessed than they should know why they weren't given approval which as you just pointed out, you tell them why.

Which you've been told, repeatedly, over and over, by many, many posters here each time you've brought this up over the last 2 and a half years.

Failure or not being ready isn't necessarily a bad thing, what's bad is if you don't know why you've failed or why you're not ready.

None of this is different to anything anyone has said. The fact that you see the need to state these things as if informing others is why it's hard to see any growth that you feel you've made.

I take it as I see it. I've come to the point where I've realized its not worth it to get worked up over what people say on the internet.

Again, that's not the point. If you're taking people's comments "with a grain of salt", it means to apply a level of distrust and skepticism to what they're saying… I'm saying that that is exactly the opposite of what you should be doing. It's nothing to do with getting worked up over what they say… it's more a matter of recognising what they're actually saying, and why.

I was just explaining out how my dojo is run by the head instructor.

Okay… but it's still irrelevant, and has nothing at all to do with your situation. You described the way your instructor handled someone who explicitly said they weren't interested in further ranking… so, unless you also made similar comments, it's got nothing to do with anything you've been talking about… and, if you did, then you've been presenting a very false image of the situation.

I would also like to point out that many people might find some of your posts to be offensive. As for me, like I said Im past the point of getting worked up over what somebody says on the internet, its simply not worth it, but other people will no doubt get offended by some of your posts.

So… what are you saying here? People might be offended, but you aren't, but people might be, so….?

Look. Yeah, I speak bluntly. I'm more of a "tough love" kinda guy. And, frankly, nothing less than that has been close to getting through to you.

Hi guys sorry for this, teething problem. Please see my replies below. Thanks.

Cool, thought as much.

Hi Master Chris

Just Chris. Please.

Thanks for that. As far as dealing with OP or PG is concerned I didn't mean to be to prescriptive about it. Mine was simply a suggestion however if the community sees it fit to adopt an stronger approach when communicating with OP or PG then by all means I won't stand it the way

Yeah, I got that. Which is why I was highlighting the history for you. While I may personally have a somewhat harsher (blunter) approach than others, everything is said with the intention of helping… and is structured based on interactions with the person I'm dealing with at the time.

I didn't mean to second guess the aspects of your chosen martial art. I'm sure that whatever martial art you practice, you were taught, shown or even indoctrinated with a guiding principle that keeps you seeking higher skills in your chosen art including how to deal with any situation in real life.

Yeah… look, the thing is that that really doesn't mean anything at all. I mean… yes, there are "guiding principles" to my arts… one of which is boiled down by someone else "walk up to the other guy and kill him"… another might be seen as "just hit them!"… another is based around subduing and controlling (in a rather different expression than BJJ, for the record)… so what influence should that have on my conduct?

My point is that the idea of "shouldn't martial artists behave better?" is a largely false, empty, and baseless ideal… it's an artificial addition which, when looked at honestly, contradicts much of martial teachings.

I don't want to get to cliche'ed here for fear of being laughed out of the forum as I'm sure some of you are already snickering at my comments, that's alright though. I never suggested 'pacifism' but in practicing your art haven't you developed a thought system that dictates an attitude of rationality in face of any situation, whatever your course of action is? To me that separates us from lower order beings whose instincts are primal not rational.

Rationality? No. And if they're a part of a martial system, then that's not a good sign… when dealing with violence, you're not dealing with rationality, so applying it is a rather bad idea… violence is incredibly primal. The idea of "separat(ing) us from lower order beings"… well… huh?

No sir not at all. However we can opt to keep it moving productively.

Sure, but "productive" can change depending on the context…

Master Chris with all due respect, allow me to quote the above once again. Perhaps its the community where I live that gives rise to that and as a martial arts teacher I stand by that philosophy.

Well, that's not a philosophy, it's a tactic (plan of action)… and I don't have an issue with it as a first-line tactic for self defence… but I don't see any relevance to anything else said.

You and I both know that in our environment here in Australia we don't so much fear for our lives, we don't so much live under a dark cloud that a person with a gun will suddenly shoot and kill others in a public place, we don't so much fear that the person sitting beside us on the train or in the bus will stick a knife up us...YET!!!!

Okay… still not sure what this has to do with anything…

That perhaps is why as a teacher I choose to concentrate on life skills through martial arts and combine that with the combative aspects harmoniously.

As do I.

Thank you for time. It's a nice day today good for fish and chips please have a great day.

Okay.

 

[Tez3]

You get fish and chips in Oz? Still they won't be burnt as we have the Ashes........................................woowoo, sorry couldn't resist!!

 

[PhotonGuy]

Okay, so comparative observation. Cool. However, that's not quite what I was getting at… I was more wondering how you would be able to tell what "good skills" are if seen independent of contrast or comparative examples. What I mean is… if I was to show just a single clip, devoid of ranking or description, could you say if it was good or not? And how would you base such an observation?

If I was to see a single clip I could make my own judgements on whether or not I considered it good. And I would base that on how it matches up to all the numerous other demonstrations I've seen of martial arts performances both in my own dojo and many other dojos that I've visited. Even if I don't take classes at a dojo I sometimes will visit and observe the students perform, particularly the higher ranking students. I would also use my own knowledge and experience in the martial arts to determine if I thought the clip was good or not, how well the techniques were done, how good the form was, ect.

You've missed the point. The simple reality is that some people, no matter how much they work, will never be at the skill level of "black belt" (depending on the organisation and system, of course). Sadly, it's not just a matter of "well, they have to work harder". If you don't have it, in some cases, you just don't have it.

If somebody who wants to advance has been at a rank for longer than the usual length of time I see two reasons why they're not advancing, either they're not working hard enough or they're not doing it right. All the hard work in the world won't do you any good if you're not doing it right. You will only get better at doing it the wrong way.

So what you're saying is theres more to it than that, that some people just don't have the potential to reach certain ranks or levels and that no matter how hard they work or how much they try to do it right they will never go beyond their potential I take it?

Okay. To be frank, no, it doesn't show.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean its not there. Then again, its practically impossible to know every little detail about somebody based on messages they post on a board.

Which you've been told, repeatedly, over and over, by many, many posters here each time you've brought this up over the last 2 and a half years.

Some posters but not all. Some people have said its disrespectful to ask such stuff and that you should just, as its said many times before, shut up and train. Shutting up is good when you actually are training but there are also proper times to ask questions, such as before and after class.

None of this is different to anything anyone has said. The fact that you see the need to state these things as if informing others is why it's hard to see any growth that you feel you've made.

To know why you failed you might have to talk to your sensei, including asking your sensei why you haven't been told you could test yet.

I would reply to the rest of the thread but my computer battery is running low and I am not at home where the charger is. When I charge up my computer I will finish.

 

[Geo]

Whoa, hold your horses here, you are jumping to some pretty big conclusions here.
Most of us read the original post when it first went up, there has also been similar posts by the OP.
It sounds a fine thing coming on castigate people for what you think you have read but you are reading it wrong, no mud has been flung, characters haven't been shot down and I would seriously suggest you read as many of PG's threads and get to know his online character as we have before you start making accusations we are 'mobbing' him.
As for you UFC comment, really? is that how you respect other martial artists?

Hi Tez

Fist of all, didn't mean to put anyone's knickers in a knot. Apologies if I inadvertently pushed anyone's buttons, I am now beginning to realise that this issue is extremely vexing to you inasmuch as it is to PG/OP.

Just for the avoidance of doubt I am not castigating anybody here. I'd like to believe that all of us in this forum have mature outlooks and that we can co-exist with each others' differences unfortunately it appears that some of the community members would rather be exclusive.

It is my observation only and not meant to pontificate to any one about it. If you are slighted by it then I'm sorry you feel that way.

I'm also sorry you feel that way about my UFC comment, leave it at that. Once again for the avoidance of doubt I respect martial artists. It's not a blanket though.

As for being 'spiritually aggrieved', I 've no idea what that means but I'm pretty sure it applies to no one here, far from it we persevere with PG because we do actually want his questions answered so that he can understand better, I assume you don't know why he has problems in this direction because unlike us you have just jumped in feet first , sized up the situation incorrectly and come up with the rubbish you have.
yes I read your last post.

As for my 'spiritually aggrieved' comment, you are a 'pommie' right as you avatar suggest, so I'm sure you are familiar with the saying " if the shoe fits?".

I don't need to read PG's other post. Why? I do not wish to diagnose why he behaves as such. After all what we are seeing here is his/her online persona'. All these can just be figments of his/her imaginations and it appears that a lot of you have heavily invested in it. Whoever PG/OP is might be having the time of his or her life spinning this thread and watching how he plays the community.

Perhaps if the community wishes to invite relevant comments to discussion threads someone might consider moderating and contextualising the discussion.

By the way - I love fish and chips with malt vinegar and salt. Not a big fan of tartare sauce.

As for the Ashes - out of 322 games played since 1882 the score stands at:

Australia 129 won vs. England 104 won

Hey Tez have a great day.