Is wing chun effective at all?

[mook jong man]

For Wing Chun to work you must maintain proper structure, it excels in close quarters; there are other fighting styles that move more freely with less restrictions on body movement for greater reach. And your three meter charging knee would get you knocked out if you tried that against me; don't presume you know everything there is about fighting either :asian:

I said my master could bridge a gap of about 3 metres in the blink of an eye , I didn't say I could.
I do it a lot closer , from just out of kicking range .

You think we just charge right in without our hands up in the guard position ? , the hands are up ready to intercept anything that comes in.
The charging knee is just there to cover you from getting kicked so you can get into close range and use your hands to knock the other person out.

Maintaining proper structure is about keeping your spine straight and the proper angles of your arms , we can still do that whilst moving from long range to close range or even out of range.

 

[mograph]

I get it. It's all good. Just seemed a little like ganging up on a new guy to me. I think it's easy to forget when we were new and didn't know what was what. If the original post was genuine and not a troll, I think it warrants an honest, non-sarcastic answer.

Fair enough, mea culpa.

Maybe now would be a good time for the OP to come back in, having been given more info, and give some feedback on the replies. Have they addressed his/her concerns? Have the replies led to new questions or concerns? Is clarification required? Is there anything mentioned that the OP would like expounded upon?

 

[JzHernandez77]

First thanks to everyone that answerd I appreciate it I am a newbie to martial arts especially wing chun I haven't started learning but I plan to,I won't ask a question to troll or to screw around so take my newbie questions seriously cause I seriously don't know, so if you use wing chun has it helped in any situation where you had to defend yourself like for example a random guy going crazy and swinging at you something around that situation

 

[Mr. President]

Wing Chun, like any martial art, is only as effective as you make it. There is no "effectiveness scale" where you can place each art. That being said, WC is a close range, rapid street style self defense method that, if applied correctly, can easily overwhelm an opponent.

Bottom line - Find a good teacher, dedicate yourself and push yourself to always do better, and WC will work just fine.

 

[Argus]

First thanks to everyone that answerd I appreciate it I am a newbie to martial arts especially wing chun I haven't started learning but I plan to,I won't ask a question to troll or to screw around so take my newbie questions seriously cause I seriously don't know, so if you use wing chun has it helped in any situation where you had to defend yourself like for example a random guy going crazy and swinging at you something around that situation

Wing Chun is well known as a very practical art for self defense. It is, however, very hard to use in a sportive context - especially if all you've ever trained is Wing Chun.

The reason for this is primarily distance management. Wing Chun is a close-quarters system - it's not designed for, and doesn't work in long distance fighting, as you see in boxing, for example. So if you are going to use Wing Chun in the ring, you need to really train to deal with boxers, grapplers, and the like.

However, Wing Chun is very easy to apply in self defense because if someone is actually trying to hurt you, they're not going to dance around out of range and try to take potshots at you (or, at least, if they do, you're free to ignore them and disengage.) They will move in on you. This is where Wing Chun works very well, and is very efficient.

Now, there are skilled practitioners who used Wing Chun very successfully in combat by mutual agreement. Lok Yiu and Wong Shun Leung were noted for competing in Beimo matches in the 50's. But to use Wing Chun competitively like that, I believe you need to be very intelligent, very skilled, and very experienced.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The only problem I have ever come across in Wing Chun effectiveness, and I have come across this in other arts as well (Aikido, Aikijutsu, Taijiquan, Karate, TKD, etc.), is the propensity to only train with Wing Chun people. They become very effective against other Wing Chun people but when they come up against another style they have problems and then they are surprised by that. I saw that in a guy who I think is a highly skilled martial arts and his art is Wing Chun.

I was a student and having issues because of my CMA background (Taiji and Xingyi) and all of the other students were having real issues with my attacks and defenses. I was trying real hard to do Wing Chun but every defense I used was Taiji and al my attacks were Xingyiquan. They finally asked the sifu what they could do against me. I apologized and told them all it was me and I was trying real hard to go with Wing Chun but things were happening automatically. The sifu told me to do an attack and I did and we ended up locked. I knew if I moved he could strike me and he knew if he moved I was in a position to take him down and then he said... he had no idea what to do, other than stopping me, which he had done.

He is an incredibly skilled Wing Chun person in a rather solid lineage but he had only been dealing with Wing Chun people for years.

But this can be any martial art, not just Wing Chun.

Fast forward with another incredibly skilled Wing Chun sifu, who is much more relaxed than the first one; he can and has stopped me and pummeled me and it was mighty cool. He has also said he can't give me time to connect or my Taiji might win the day so he does not give me the time. Interesting call there because in the first case my next move, if he moved, was Cao (Shoulder strike from Taiji)

 

[mook jong man]

One of the problems that I see with people getting locked up in chi sau , is that people try and think of some sort of pivoting move to try and get out of it.
They seem to forget that they have legs , don't stuff around with pivoting , immediately low heel kick him in the shin , that should break the stale mate as well as his leg.
Any Wing Chun person worth their salt should be adept at kicking the opponents legs within chi sau range without being detected and while still having control of the opponents arms.

 

[Argus]

The only problem I have ever come across in Wing Chun effectiveness, and I have come across this in other arts as well (Aikido, Aikijutsu, Taijiquan, Karate, TKD, etc.), is the propensity to only train with Wing Chun people. They become very effective against other Wing Chun people but when they come up against another style they have problems and then they are surprised by that. I saw that in a guy who I think is a highly skilled martial arts and his art is Wing Chun.

I was a student and having issues because of my CMA background (Taiji and Xingyi) and all of the other students were having real issues with my attacks and defenses. I was trying real hard to do Wing Chun but every defense I used was Taiji and al my attacks were Xingyiquan. They finally asked the sifu what they could do against me. I apologized and told them all it was me and I was trying real hard to go with Wing Chun but things were happening automatically. The sifu told me to do an attack and I did and we ended up locked. I knew if I moved he could strike me and he knew if he moved I was in a position to take him down and then he said... he had no idea what to do, other than stopping me, which he had done.

He is an incredibly skilled Wing Chun person in a rather solid lineage but he had only been dealing with Wing Chun people for years.

But this can be any martial art, not just Wing Chun.

Fast forward with another incredibly skilled Wing Chun sifu, who is much more relaxed than the first one; he can and has stopped me and pummeled me and it was mighty cool. He has also said he can’t give me time to connect or my Taiji might win the day so he does not give me the time. Interesting call there because in the first case my next move, if he moved, was Cao (Shoulder strike from Taiji)

Very true. And I think this is one of the biggest problems most TMA practitioners have -- being stuck in a bubble.

I wonder though, what chance do you have to train with people of different arts? I'm not aware of many schools that actually invite people from other arts to practice with them, and I don't think that approaching other schools for any reason other than enrolling is likely to be well received. Everyone seems pretty content in their bubbles.

 

[StormShadow]

Very true. And I think this is one of the biggest problems most TMA practitioners have -- being stuck in a bubble.

I wonder though, what chance do you have to train with people of different arts? I'm not aware of many schools that actually invite people from other arts to practice with them, and I don't think that approaching other schools for any reason other than enrolling is likely to be well received. Everyone seems pretty content in their bubbles.

I believe a reason that could be is no one wants to truly face the "holes" in their art; especially in front of students. Now students are questioning, themselves, the art, the training and possibly the instructors. Likely only very confident schools, secure in their beliefs would "cross-spar" with other schools. I love wing chun though I do not believe wing chun is the absolute system of perfection. I believe no system on planet earth is of absolute perfection. Every system has holes that can be exploited, though some exploited easier than others.

I do not have any experience cross-sparring with other schools but references videos that I've seen of it being done, it looked like a mma spectator sport taking place. It seemed like the schools involved was out to prove something instead of trying to learn. In one video I can recall, this one particular school was incredibly dishonorable with their instructors laughing at a student from another school if he slipped or happened to get hit. These attitudes may also what some sifu's are looking to keep their students from witnessing first hand in what should be a learning experience and not made into a competitive sport to be gawked at with taunts and comments.

 

[Danny T]

We train several different arts and spar against the different arts often. We also have an open policy with the different schools in Louisiana. Anyone from any school is welcome to our open sparring sessions and we travel to a lot of different schools to spar. There many schools which do not participate but many who do. Some TMA schools do participate and most all the MMA gyms do participate. Of those who do not all but a few are TMA.
Our rules,
'Leave your Ego at the door',
'There are NO WINNERS or LOSERS',
'This is not a Test of Your Skill but a Test of your ability to Learn and Grow.'
'Leave as a Friend'
'If you can not do that then don't come in'.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Many years ago I was at a Chinese Marital Arts school where the Sifu allowed us to stay a couple extra hours after all his classes were done and beat the heck out of each other. There were a lot of different styles there, Aikido, TKD, Southern Mantis, Judo, etc. And it was an incredible learning experience.

More recently I took my Taijiquan push hands to work with some Wing Chun guys, that too was pretty cool

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Once a long time ago I was at an informal workout with a whole bunch of people with different backgrounds. After just training with everyone we also did some very heavy contact sparring. I watched a Wing Chun guy dismantle a kickboxer only to be dismantled later on by a point fighter. (who trained in Shotokan) I also had the opportunity to watch a collegiate wrestler get knocked senseless by a boxer. A couple of the Tae Kwon Do guy's also were kicking serious butt during almost all of their sparring matches. Everything was fun, friendly and a good workout. Bottom line is that the individual is responsible for making their training work (ie. style) and an individual with the right physical and mental attributes will usually be successful! If you do not have those attributes you probably will be mediocre at best.

 

[wingchunguy]

I would like to clarify about range management. Since wing chun IS a close combat system, it is strongest at close combat range (about 2 feet or less). Now the problem with most wing chun systems, ESPECIALLY the modified systems like Moy Yat and that fraud, Lueng Ting, is that they do not teach you how to properly close the distance or gap (the first one is when contact is made, the second when no contact is made), and don't teach you to ENTER when the contact is released, or when you are close enough and an opening in your opponent's defenses occur. This is a MAJOR flaw because staying at mid range is dangerous and leaves you open to attack from kicks, punches, and even the take down. You must understand that these modified systems are lacking and inferior to the real traditional, as in William Cheung's lineage, or even Wong Shun Leung's lineage, who, even though it is modified, was extremely smart and wise enough to know that you have close the gap for this system to be effective. His is the only modified lineage that does this, and this is what makes his lineage so good. Also, Moy Yat's and Leung Ting's lineage DO NOT SPAR against other systems, which is also a big mistake on their part. You need this to get the ability to judge distance, timing, and to hone your response against other systems and other fighters, because each fighter, even in the same system, has their own unique style and peculiarities that might cause trouble for the wing chun practitioner.

 

[yak sao]

.........that fraud, Lueng Ting, .................................... and Leung Ting's lineage DO NOT SPAR against other systems

Not going to win many friends on here with that approach. I am from LT lineage...we spar other lineages, in fact I have a standing invitation to any WC guy of any lineage and any MAist of any style, including boxers and wrestlers, to come and train/spar with me or my group.

And yes, we spend a lot of time closing the gap as well.

 

[Danny T]

I would like to clarify about range management. Since wing chun IS a close combat system, it is strongest at close combat range (about 2 feet or less). Now the problem with most wing chun systems, ESPECIALLY the modified systems like Moy Yat and that fraud, Lueng Ting, is that they do not teach you how to properly close the distance or gap (the first one is when contact is made, the second when no contact is made), and don't teach you to ENTER when the contact is released, or when you are close enough and an opening in your opponent's defenses occur. This is a MAJOR flaw because staying at mid range is dangerous and leaves you open to attack from kicks, punches, and even the take down. You must understand that these modified systems are lacking and inferior to the real traditional, as in William Cheung's lineage, or even Wong Shun Leung's lineage, who, even though it is modified, was extremely smart and wise enough to know that you have close the gap for this system to be effective. His is the only modified lineage that does this, and this is what makes his lineage so good. Also, Moy Yat's and Leung Ting's lineage DO NOT SPAR against other systems, which is also a big mistake on their part. You need this to get the ability to judge distance, timing, and to hone your response against other systems and other fighters, because each fighter, even in the same system, has their own unique style and peculiarities that might cause trouble for the wing chun practitioner.

I've yet to see 'Any' wc system that was not modified is some manner.
Don't get hung up in the marketing or the politics and I respectfully request that you don't come here spewing it either.
I've seen some good wc from most every wc system/style I've been exposed to. I've also seen bad wc from the same.

 

[Mephisto]

Lots of conjecture in this thread, hiding behind the accolades of an instructor, and "common knowledge" appeal. WC is probably fine for self defense against an averaged sized untrained attacker any training is better than nothing. But what about a skilled fighter? Someone accustomed to violence? Schools that spat and train hard contact will best prepare you for this kind of violent encounter. If you are used to dealing with an aggressive opponent you will be prepared for reality. Some wc schools train this way but many do not. Wc is a striking art there is no reason wc can't dominate other striking arts in a sparring match, save the fact that a lot of wc guys can't apply the art to a resisting opponent. If you can't apply your craft to a resisting opponent in a sparring situation what makes you think it will work in real life? People see sporting events and compare it to reality. In reality a person will probably enter and unload, this happens in sports matches too when fighters are not evenly matched. We've all seen plenty of ko under the 30sec mark. But for the "play" to happen in a sport one fighter must demonstrate a defense. Keep in mind sports display a fight between skilled fighters, if you can defend a skilled attack you can defend an unskilled attack. If you think this is untrue go to a fighting gym, they are used to guys coming in to spar, they don't take it as an insult, and they oblige. They'll even find you a guy of equal weight and time spent training.

 

[WcForMe]

I am no where near as experienced as some of these guys posting but the point of a wc man/women not doing so well agaist other styles is a point I have raised in the past. The main reason for this is as said before if a wing Chun fighter only fights a wing fighter you learn and rely on those specific angles of attacks IMO. When I have sparred other styles the attack angles of there hands and feet change dramatically. Wing Chun is not a dead system it relies on the person using it to have the foresight and brains to understand that you need to make the system work for you and your body type. Just because your teacher/Sifu/coach can make something work doesn't mean you can if he's 6ft 2 and your 5ft 7 or visa versa. So my point is if you don't train agaist odd angles of attacks or a guy that's a brawler swinging wildly you will fail. Yes you need structure and correct arm angles but tell me on the street relastically how many times are you going to come across say a straight punch which you've been training to stop since you started? Food for thought I think! But if you disagree let me know.

 

[Transk53]

I am no where near as experienced as some of these guys posting but the point of a wc man/women not doing so well agaist other styles is a point I have raised in the past. The main reason for this is as said before if a wing Chun fighter only fights a wing fighter you learn and rely on those specific angles of attacks IMO. When I have sparred other styles the attack angles of there hands and feet change dramatically. Wing Chun is not a dead system it relies on the person using it to have the foresight and brains to understand that you need to make the system work for you and your body type. Just because your teacher/Sifu/coach can make something work doesn't mean you can if he's 6ft 2 and your 5ft 7 or visa versa. So my point is if you don't train agaist odd angles of attacks or a guy that's a brawler swinging wildly you will fail. Yes you need structure and correct arm angles but tell me on the street relastically how many times are you going to come across say a straight punch which you've been training to stop since you started? Food for thought I think! But if you disagree let me know.

I asked a similar question at class the other night of a 1st Technician, who also happens to be a boxer and has experience in other Kung Fu. I never realized this, but when the IRIS is done right (trying to remember the acronym) and the stance is right, IE the quads and what not strengthens, it is not as unfluid as it it seems. Sorry I am not up on a lot of the WC terminology just yet, but from what I saw, a brawler would be taken in seconds, if not milliseconds. Of course this may well not just be confined to WC, but what I saw from the higher grades the other night, it works!

 

[Dylan9d]

An art is as good as it's practitioner!

That said, the type of art has to be for you specifically. I tried some Wing or Ving Tsun and i had the feeling that i had to adjust my body (postures, stances etc) to much. I was used to using more natural stances in the Silat i did and couldn't used to WC/VT.

So just take some classes and see if it's for you, if it's not just look for something else, simple

 

[yak sao]

, but when the IRIS is done right (trying to remember the acronym) and the stance is right, IE the quads and what not strengthens, it is not as unfluid as it it seems. Sorry I am not up on a lot of the WC terminology just yet,

IRAS. Internally Rotated Adduction Stance

The EWTO coined this term to describe the Character Two stance (Yee Gee Kim Yuen Ma).

And you're right, this stance, while very restrictive feeling in the beginning, is very mobile and fluid. In fact, I would say that about WT/WC as a whole. At first you are consumed with structure, stance etc. but the time comes when you break through all of that and it becomes about movement.