I have and I honestly don't know. If I continue to train WC I will at some point have more of an opinion on that. That video made me re-think the idea that WC had to look just like WC. I don't have enough experience with it to really say.
Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?
- Thread starter geezer
- Start date
I think that the example of boxing in the video is one of the clearest explanations of the difference between basic form and application.
Forms are only templates. Even drills only capture part of the picture. The ability to find and create openings through striking, distancing and body movement, as well as forcing them through physical manipulation, is 90% of the fight and it's largely the part the forms can't teach.
Great point DaveB. I've always been a sucker for Kung Fu, probably because I grew up like the rest of us with Bruce Lee. I should probably let that go LOL. My dad was always into boxing, and I too loved boxing. I don't have a formal background in martial arts. I grew up practicing all the basic boxing punches on a heavy bag we had for years. I became pretty good with my hands in terms of speed and power because that's literally all I did. When I went to the WC school for 2 months, and spared, I felt very confident and did well against even their most seasoned students. As we were sparing, I felt it was so linear. It was head on. All I would have done in a real situation, is move quickly to either side, and used hooks. Also, the speed at which one can throw punches renders most of the blocking almost impossible. WC is a great art and offers a lot, but I think you have to make it your own and take the good that comes from it. You also need to use more kicking, elbows and just better overall movement. IMO.
The guys that make WC work - Adam Chan, Orr etc....talk about these things. Adhering to strictly a traditional approach will likely get you killed in a real fight. I can't comment though on where structure is lost etc. when you do so because I do not have nearly enough training in WC to know that.
I like this video on forms from Adam Chan:
The guys that make WC work - Adam Chan, Orr etc....talk about these things. Adhering to strictly a traditional approach will likely get you killed in a real fight. I can't comment though on where structure is lost etc. when you do so because I do not have nearly enough training in WC to know that.
I like this video on forms from Adam Chan:
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I watched these videos, and I think this guy is on the right path. One point I feel was omitted is when he says that forms are a collection of useful ideas (my paraphrase) that have application use. In addition to that, in my experience forms also drill things like generation of power, while practicing those useful technical ideas. I think that idea isn’t often specifically expressed, and therefore can be overlooked.
This has an important impact because often the movement used to drill that power generation can be exaggerated, as a tool for helping someone understand how to make a full body connection with their power generation. Exaggerated movements can simply help in that understanding. But this exaggerated movement can be seen as being heavily stylized, and that is where outsiders get the notion that Kung Fu forms are just flowery dance. As exaggerated movement those techniques are not often as directly applicable, but they are not meant to be, in that format. Rather, once the power generation is understood, that same power can be done without the exaggeration, and that is how the techniques are really meant to be used.
This is why I say that as long as you understand the principles of the system, meaning things like power generation, then the technique does not need to look any certain way. A wing chun guy does not need to look like a wing chun guy when he fights. Fighting can look like anything. But if his power principles come from his wing chun training, even if the techniques do not look exactly as they do in the forms, he is still using his wing chun. But outsiders want to make this funny claim that wing chun fighting has to look a certain way or else the wing chun guy has abandoned his system in the chaos of the fight. That is simply not true.
One other comment: you state that adhering to a strictly traditional approach will likely get you killed in combat. I disagree. I believe that most people, even many people who train in traditional martial arts, do not understand what a traditional approach to training really means and entails.
Just picking up one point from here, Michael. I think a lot of forms use exaggeration for two reasons. Firstly, big movements are easier to remember than subtle ones, so students are more likely to approximate correctness. Secondly, it's easier to tell if a student is doing it right if it's exaggerated, so an instructor can oversee a number of students moving through the same form, and quickly spot where someone's making a significant mistake. There may be a third reason, as well: students tend to exaggerate movements when not working with a partner, so they might as well exaggerate them accurately.
I sometimes wish I'd figured a way to put more exaggeration in my forms, because I run into the problems exaggeration avoids.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I think those can also be reasons for exaggerated movement. Or why exaggerated movement can be useful even if that was not the original intention behind it. A lot of this does depend on how the forms were built in the first place. The skill and knowledge of the person who built them means a lot in the outcome.
The main reason for exaggeration is to push your body limitation to the maximum. If you can do a high kick, you should be able to do a low kick.
That's not the same as the exaggeration of a hand movement in a form, though.The main reason for exaggeration is to push your body limitation to the maximum. If you can do a high kick, you should be able to do a low kick.
That's ONE reason, but I'm not sure it's the main reason.
And if you can do high kicks, you SHOULD be able to do a low kick, but it's still important to practice them. I've seen more than one TKD student who was so focused on high kicks that they totally ignore opportunities for low kicks.
Of course, if they've spent their entire time only doing Olympic sparring, you can pretty much forget about them doing a leg kick, without a bit of re-training.
He keeps his back arm back to help his body to extend to the maximum. You will never fight like this. This training is the opposite of the WC square shoulder punch training. This is why the long fist system and the WC system are impossible to be integrated together.
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This remind me one time I sparred with a TKD guy. I stayed in a very low stance. Later on he refused to spar with he. He said, "You Kung Fu guy's stance are just too low."
I'd just take that as being polite. You know, bringing your head down where it's easier to reach.
And, too, very low stances also tend to put the front leg closer to me. Where it's easier to kick.
But to someone who restricts their training, this can be very very confusing.
This has an important impact because often the movement used to drill that power generation can be exaggerated, as a tool for helping someone understand how to make a full body connection with their power generation. Exaggerated movements can simply help in that understanding. But this exaggerated movement can be seen as being heavily stylized, and that is where outsiders get the notion that Kung Fu forms are just flowery dance. As exaggerated movement those techniques are not often as directly applicable, but they are not meant to be, in that format. Rather, once the power generation is understood, that same power can be done without the exaggeration, and that is how the techniques are really meant to be used.
----On this point I agree!
This is why I say that as long as you understand the principles of the system, meaning things like power generation, then the technique does not need to look any certain way. A wing chun guy does not need to look like a wing chun guy when he fights. Fighting can look like anything. But if his power principles come from his wing chun training, even if the techniques do not look exactly as they do in the forms, he is still using his wing chun. But outsiders want to make this funny claim that wing chun fighting has to look a certain way or else the wing chun guy has abandoned his system in the chaos of the fight. That is simply not true.
---On this point I disagree! If you are generating power in a specific way based upon your system, why would it not look somewhat like your system? I cannot learn to generate power the Pin Sun Wing Chun way, then throw a punch like a long fist style, and call it "Wing Chun." If I train to generate power from a somewhat narrow and sunken stance the Wing Chun way, and then end up doing large motions that generate power like a boxer when I spar, then how can I claim what I am doing is "Wing Chun"? And if I maintain my somewhat narrow and sunken stance to generate power the Wing Chun way when I spar, would it not then be recognizable as Wing Chun? Even if not "perfect" Wing Chun?
----On this point I agree!
This is why I say that as long as you understand the principles of the system, meaning things like power generation, then the technique does not need to look any certain way. A wing chun guy does not need to look like a wing chun guy when he fights. Fighting can look like anything. But if his power principles come from his wing chun training, even if the techniques do not look exactly as they do in the forms, he is still using his wing chun. But outsiders want to make this funny claim that wing chun fighting has to look a certain way or else the wing chun guy has abandoned his system in the chaos of the fight. That is simply not true.
---On this point I disagree! If you are generating power in a specific way based upon your system, why would it not look somewhat like your system? I cannot learn to generate power the Pin Sun Wing Chun way, then throw a punch like a long fist style, and call it "Wing Chun." If I train to generate power from a somewhat narrow and sunken stance the Wing Chun way, and then end up doing large motions that generate power like a boxer when I spar, then how can I claim what I am doing is "Wing Chun"? And if I maintain my somewhat narrow and sunken stance to generate power the Wing Chun way when I spar, would it not then be recognizable as Wing Chun? Even if not "perfect" Wing Chun?
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
When it comes to real application and you abandon the exaggerated/stylized movement that is often found in the forms, it will look different. It might look similar, or it might not, and it does not need to.
The principles are far more important on a foundational level than the techniques themselves. The principles can manifest in any number of ways, including techniques that do not even look like “proper” techniques.
Honestly there is a whole lot of room to recognize a technique within an application that does not look identical to the form.
Maybe the disconnect here is that Wing Chun doesn't really have a lot of overly exaggerated moves in the forms.
I read in Look Beyond the Pointing Finger that WSL only used about 3 moves or techniques to win most of his fights and wasn’t even sure if the others worked because he never used them. Found that interesting.
Related to what Bruce Lee always said.
Related to what Bruce Lee always said.
Danny T
Senior Master
There a lot more to wc than power generation and specific body mechanics at all times. The body structure within the pole work and drills as well as in the last aspect of biu jee is quite different from the structure within snt or ck. One doesn't stay in those structures but rather should be transitioning through them when required. The power generation and moves within are not as condensed as well.
Agreed...in most of the system however, there are instances.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
