Is tradition important?

[Kframe]

That does not answere how in hell a low block can represent a shoulder throw!! The shoulder is up high, the block goes low. if anything it represents a different throw, or toss. The movements, no matter how you turn, or face, do not in any way resemble that of a shoulder throw....

 

[Sukerkin]

Honestly, just wait and don't worry about it. If you find you can't wait then go and do something else.

 

[K-man]

Nor did rthis answer my question as to how in the heck a "low block" can possibly represent a shoulder throw. The movements of the two maneuvers do not match up in the least...

Not knowing what throw you are describing it is hard to comment but to me there are at least four throws, or takedowns that spring to mind, one of which may be called a shoulder throw. In a kata it depends on context.

Kman I was using the term that the instructor told me during the class. He used the term low block, I didn't just make it up.

As we probably were all told. For centuries people believed the Earth was flat because that is what they were told. It doesn't mean it is true.

I want you to explain how one can get a shoulder throw from a low block. For that is exactly what that instructor told me the low block represented in that form. He also said it could be a bunch of other different moves, all represented by the low block.

OK. For a simple one. Let's assume that in the situation you have hold of both your partner's wrists with a cross grip. Your right hand is on top. In this example the 'blocking' hand is the right hand. By pulling the left hand into carriage as you turn to the right and pull down with the right hand you will perform a shoulder throw.

So your instructor is quite right, just I would never have called it a 'block' to begin with.


Tell me, how can a low block represent a move, if the movements in the low block, look nothing like the movements they supposedly represent. A low block in no way looks like the shoulder throw he told me it was.. It does not move in the same way a shoulder throw moves in.

In kata, the low 'block' can represent many things. The secret is to work out what it means to you.

Secondly, if there are no blocks, then stop using the term block.

I did, years ago!

That statement pisses me off to no end. I keep hearing, there is no block, yet those same people keep using the same terminology.

Hey! Don't shoot the messenger.

I can accept that those movement are layered in there application. That at the basic level it is indeed a defensive movement.(I prefere the term deflection, its more appropriate) As experience expands, your usage of the basic deflection can also be coupled with more complicated moves. Such as traps and throws and locks..... I may do a more modern martial art, but we have some deflections that come straight out of my instructors previous TMA. At the basic level they are just basic moves to prevent attacks from hurting you. As you gain experience they become more. We call them blocks because that is what the kids in the class know them as..

OK, you're on the right track. But as I've said, I don't teach these as blocks, even to kids.

Lastly the TKD place I was at, stated that all the "blocks" he teaches are In fact limb destruction techniques. I get that, sure they will probably hurt the limb you deflect with it. That does not change the fact that properly using the deflection will redirect the attack in a less threatening manner. All the limb destruction in the world does no good if the original attack still hits you in the face.

That is one application certainly.

Thusly these "blocks" are more properly termed striking deflections.

Exactly.

Boxing as art has hard blocks, I consider the movements in TMA to be more along the lines of striking deflections. They do both, strike the incoming attacking limb and deflect it away using less force then the attacking limb is generating.

"We call them blocks because that is what the kids in the class know them as.. " And that says it all.

I don't teach blocks to anyone. I refer to the body's instictive protective response as a block, but as it is instictive I don't have to teach it. If you read my posts you will find I sometimes refer to 'schoolboy' karate. It is a problem endemic to karate and that translates into TKD from its Shotokan origins. It does not apply to other Japanese arts like ninjutsu, jujitsu or even aikido, and it doesn't occur in kung fu or more specifically WC.

The problem arises when you take an empty hand system designed to kill or at least badly injure your assailant, and teach it to children to make them fit and strong. That is 'schoolboy' martial art and that is what was taught to the Western world after the war. Fortunately, now a lot of people have, or are developing, a deeper understanding, but there are still plenty of 'dinosaurs' in our MA schools.

The word is 'uke' which means receive, not block. If I use the term 'block' when referring to uke, I use parentheses. So let's look at the lower 'block'. We normally refer to it as gedan barai, not gedan uke. Used against a kick for example it is a sweep, not a block, therefore 'barai'. Not that I would ever use it against a kick as there are many better ways of dealing with a kick. Receiving a lower level strike, say to the lower abdomen, gedan uke, to me, would be deflecting the strike by pushing across with the lower arm and striking the ear and pulling the head down with the 'blocking' hand. Another technique might be to redirect the attacker by pulling the upper arm down and across. If I choose to use it as a strike to the attacking arm, I could, but that leaves both my hands down and no protection against the other hand. If you think that 'Gedan Uke' is a 'lower block' can you please explain to me the reason for the sweep across the upper chest before the downward motion. :asian:

 

[Kframe]

Ok, k man thank you, you made sense... by shoulder throw I mean this..

This is one variant of how we practice it. Maybe in this case the "low block" is a groin shot?

Thank you for the info on uke, tho I already knew it and had been reading a lot on Dan djurivics blog on the subject.

With regards to gedan uke, we actually do some thing similar. if a mid level kick is coming, we move with the kick or up the circle past the apex. It looses a lot of power with that maneuver. Then we do a pivot and I scoop the kick with the "low block" while grabbing and pulling for a throw with the upper hand.. The most important part of our kick defenses is the movement part. We don't stand and take it, we move and negate it.. Tho I do check low level kicks on occasion with my shins.

One move I shamelessly stole from karate/tkd is the soto uke, or inner body block in tkd. I have added it to my defensive drills, its a great move with lots of applications.

I don't know if your reference to what we teach to the kids is a slam on my coach, but lets face the facts. My new gym is new, and right now kids are paying the bills for the coach. I get TONS of one on one time in the adult class's.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Kframe, I am sure you must have been asked this already so forgive me for asking it again but how long have you been studying martial arts?

Never mind that. How old is he?

 

[The Last Legionary]

In my mind that is the biggest drawback to learning a TMA, everything is so hidden, and so buried, so obscure and not obvious that many of its practitioners don't even agree on applications of specific movements.. It was ultimately what turned me off, after my intro practice at the TKD place. So much of the art is "hidden", I don't want to have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out weather or not a specific move means anything or is just there for fluff.

Kframe, I am sure you must have been asked this already so forgive me for asking it again but how long have you been studying martial arts?

Has no bearing on this conversation, but Im coming up on 2 years...

2 years in and it's not clear yet. Wow. I feel incredibly stupid, what with 20+ years studying and still finding new things in the kata's.
Seriously kid, if you want simple and nothing hidden, with easy plain jane meaning, this might not be the stuff for you. Take up dance class or accounting. I've talked to people with 50+ years in who are still finding new insights in techs that were old when they were in diapers. Ok, some of them are again in diapers, you might not want to roll with them, but still, they keep looking. A block is a strike, a strike is a block. There are no strikes, there are no blocks.

I think that it is this hiddenness that hinders the TMA more then anything. I don't understand why it cant be more open, with move A actually being move A, not also B,C,and D.

That's a dance.
I strike at your head.
If you block then I counter with this strike.
If you dodge then I counter with this other strike.
If you counter my strike with one of your own I ....

and so on.

You want a simple abc123. For newbs, that is what it is. But once past that, then it gets interesting and you write the script.
But at a mere 2 years in, bluntly put, you don't know enough to know what you don't know or what you don't know.

The one truth I've learned is a simple one. In martial arts, there are no secrets, no hidden meaning. Just the ability to see things clearly. It's all there, it's all in plain sight. But like anything else, it takes time, experience and understanding to see things for what they are. Kinda like how when you're 10 you might think this text was "blue", but when you see things like an artist you'll know the pantone code by heart.

 

[K-man]

Ok, k man thank you, you made sense... by shoulder throw I mean this..

This is one variant of how we practice it. Maybe in this case the "low block" is a groin shot?

Thank you for the info on uke, tho I already knew it and had been reading a lot on Dan djurivics blog on the subject.

With regards to gedan uke, we actually do some thing similar. if a mid level kick is coming, we move with the kick or up the circle past the apex. It looses a lot of power with that maneuver. Then we do a pivot and I scoop the kick with the "low block" while grabbing and pulling for a throw with the upper hand.. The most important part of our kick defenses is the movement part. We don't stand and take it, we move and negate it.. Tho I do check low level kicks on occasion with my shins.

One move I shamelessly stole from karate/tkd is the soto uke, or inner body block in tkd. I have added it to my defensive drills, its a great move with lots of applications.

I don't know if your reference to what we teach to the kids is a slam on my coach, but lets face the facts. My new gym is new, and right now kids are paying the bills for the coach. I get TONS of one on one time in the adult class's.

The shoulder throw here is not normally a move I would do. The guys that grab me do so in a way I couldn't move forward. Therefore I classify it as a low percenter. As to it being an application of lower 'block', my imagination is good but not that good!

I'm not having a go at your instructor. You put enough in your post to suggest that he understands far more than the average instructor. As for kids? If you are running a commercial operation you need kids. I am lucky. I don't teach for money, I teach for pleasure. I handed my kids off to another school about 5 or 6 years ago. Now I will only accept a student under 18 in special circumstances. But my point is this ... if I know a 'block' is not a block, why do I need to tell kids it is a block? :asian:

 

[arnisador]

Seriously kid, if you want simple and nothing hidden, with easy plain jane meaning, this might not be the stuff for you. Take up dance class or accounting.

It's not that simple. In boxing or BJJ or JKD, there are many techniques that are subtle, whose nuances will take years to fully appreciate; in many traditional Oriental martial arts, however, there are techniques that are hidden. That's different. Although I appreciate the puzzle aspect--the intellectual and creative challenge--of finding new interpretations of old techniques, the success of people who study straight-forward arts like Muay Thai, Sombo, MMA, etc., make it far from clear that there being a cornucopia of potential applications deeply buried within each move of a kata will make you a better fighter. That is to say, if you want simple and nothing hidden, with easy plain Jane meaning, TMAs might not be the stuff for you. Take up WMAs like fencing or savate--where the ability to apply the techniques may require years of practice, but the meaning and use of them are not purposefully hidden from you. Your implication that if you don't like the notion of hidden techniques then you must either develop patience--that may never be rewarded; I think some of these arts with hidden techniques are worthless--then you should move on to "dance class or accounting" is at best a false dichotomy. You could spend 20 years looking for hidden techniques that are not there. In fact, in the case of George Dillman, who has championed hidden techniques in the Okinawan kata (and whose kata interpretation principles have really opened my mind), it led him from the good (finding hidden or alternative interpretations) to the absurd (no-touch knock-outs). I could list arts that claim this sort of hidden depth where I feel that there's no "there" there.

Never forget that boxing does very, very well with only five punches. No, it's not that simple, but it's also not very complex. I've heard Dan Inosanto speak about the martial arts. True to his high school P.E. teacher background, he makes analogies between the martial arts and football, not between the martial arts and Dante's Inferno. I've many times heard Maung Gyi speak about the advantages of a simple system that is more like a dump truck than a Porsche (his words). Over the years I've come to appreciate the non-nonsense, no-secrets approach of the FMAs, while still appreciating the very different appraoch taken in iaido--where I truly was not ready to understand the strategy behind the techniques at first and had to be brought slowly to the deeper truths.

If someone doesn't want to wait for the hidden techniques, send them to MMA. If you feel your hidden techniques are the deadliest secrets known to man, prove it in an MMA match. Otherwise, both approaches are OK.

 

[Kframe]

Tll I am not a kid, please don't disrespect me, im 31 and have 2 young kids of my own... 2 years in a mma style is different then 2 years into a TMA style..

You seam to be under the impression im currently studying a traditioinal art, im not. Im doing a more modern art, MMA if you will. My instructor has a long history of doing various traditional arts as well, as BJJ and Kickboxing, so we have some movements and concepts from his traditional side thrown in as well. I started in boxing, and went to kickboxing and BJJ. You must understand that when I went and took that TKD intro class, all the hidden and subtle meanings behind every single move, that is not clear till you are a 5th dan was a little disconcerting to me.

I have a need to know not only what im doing but why. In my mind, it needs to make sense. I have no intent of taking up GD dance class, and how dare you suggest it. Why saddle those poor sods with my uncoordinated ****. I don't like dancing any ways, punching people in the head is more fun.

With all of your attitude and bluster, you have yet to tell me why it is so important that stuff remains hidden in the kata. Do you consider it some right of passage that your students must somehow puzzle there way through the meaning of a kata or there not deemed worthy in your eyes? IF there are steps not shown in the kata, yet some how are hidden in the meaning, then why the hell arnt those steps in the kata? How hard would it be to include all the hidden steps.

Having hidden steps and meanings can lead to problems of interpretation. One movement series may mean one thing to one instructor and something totally different to the next one, both of whom can be in the same organization or heck even the same school. It leads to no set standard, no one uniformity between practitioners of the art from one school to the next.

 

[K-man]

With all of your attitude and bluster, you have yet to tell me why it is so important that stuff remains hidden in the kata. Do you consider it some right of passage that your students must somehow puzzle there way through the meaning of a kata or there not deemed worthy in your eyes? IF there are steps not shown in the kata, yet some how are hidden in the meaning, then why the hell arnt those steps in the kata? How hard would it be to include all the hidden steps.

Having hidden steps and meanings can lead to problems of interpretation. One movement series may mean one thing to one instructor and something totally different to the next one, both of whom can be in the same organization or heck even the same school. It leads to no set standard, no one uniformity between practitioners of the art from one school to the next.

There were a number of reasons for important techniques to be concealed. In China, where the kata originated, they were often the difference between life and death. The less than successful systems tended to die out with their owner, sometimes prematurely, while others were passed down, father to son. By concealing the true meaning, the forms could be openly practised without divulging their real intentions.

Why it remains hidden is because we were never shown the real meaning. If any of the Japanese ever knew, and some obviously did, they never passed the knowledge on to Westerners. So it's not a right of passage but more a sign of maturity when you begin to explore and understand the kata. I couldn't and probably wouldn't teach what I know although I do try to help my students understand parts that they may have difficulty understanding. That is not because am trying to keep it to myself, but that it is what the kata means to me and what works for me. I suggest there are a number of good references available on kata and reading these will help anyone in there studies. In particular I suggest Iain Abernethy's books or videos and another by Wilder and Kane.

Your last para is 100% correct. There is no single explanation. I bought a set of DVDs on interpreting kata in the context of Kyusho. One kata, one organisation, three practitioners and three totally different explanations in three separate DVDs. That is the beauty of kata. Everyone learns the kata, then you make it work for you. The problem in interpretation of kata is maturity, not that different people see different things. There can be a standard for the kata but there can never be a standard for the bunkai. :asian:

 

[Cyriacus]

That does not answere how in hell a low block can represent a shoulder throw!! The shoulder is up high, the block goes low. if anything it represents a different throw, or toss. The movements, no matter how you turn, or face, do not in any way resemble that of a shoulder throw....

Actually, it does. Youre looking at the block, not the motion of the block. Youre seeing the end result, and not how you get to it.

 

[Kframe]

Cyriacus, can you provide more depth and detail? I have been going over the movements and I still find them dissimilar. The only way is see a low block working is if im grabbing his crotch, instead of using both arms to grab his arm and shoulder as I was taught a shoulder throw.

 

[Cyriacus]

Cyriacus, can you provide more depth and detail? I have been going over the movements and I still find them dissimilar. The only way is see a low block working is if im grabbing his crotch, instead of using both arms to grab his arm and shoulder as I was taught a shoulder throw.

Well, to begin with, it depends on the exact techique. So lets go with this:

https://sites.google.com/site/fantastrid/AraeMakki.PNG
1; The right hand is holding the arm or elbow, the left is holding the bicep. At this point, its already pulled over his shoulder. Raising your hands to this position does that. Just throw in a 180 turn and youre golden.
2; Pull the arm over your body and down, whilst pulling the upper arm down towards your hip. Since you lean forward for a throw like this, its a bit different to the formal movement.

 

[Danny T]

A few points to ponder.

Kata is movement. Movement to position. Position to movement to position.

It is dancing.

The technique is application of movement to position.

Something I do with my students is count the positions and use the word 'and' during the movement. "aaannnd 1, aaannnd 2, aaannnd 3. The action happens during the 'aaannnd' (the movement) the number is the end not the actual technique. What happens during the movement is what is important. F - D - A Forms, Drills, Application. Kata is Form; Form is Form not application; Drills work timing, range, and develop attributes; Application is applying the movements in a manner that allows you to survive the encounter. That is all.

Application will change with your understanding and is based upon the spatial relationship with the opponent.

What is hidden is your interpretation or expression of the movement.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Something I've been thinking about a lot lately: is tradition important to martiala arts? I tend to be a traditionalist, but I'd like to hear other peoples views on this.

What do you think tradition provides to your art, and is it important?

I day and night must scramble for a living, feed the wife and children, say my daily prayers and I have the right as master of the house to have the final word at home. Now that's traditon.

Really, every art has traditions. Boxers traditionally wear gloves, boxing shorts, perform certain actions prior to and following a fight, and box within a square boundary. Fencers traditionally wear white long-Johns, knickers, salute prior to a match, and fence in a straight line on a piste. Karateka tradtionally wear white pajamas and use colored belts to denote one's training progress. Taekwondoits don't wear gloves but instead wear hogo and headgear.

However, boxers could box in white pajamas, use belts to denote their training progress. Karateka could fight in a stright line on a piste, and fencers could fence in a square boundary area rather than in a straight line on a piste. Taekwondoists could dispense with the hogu and headgear and instead wear boxing gloves and foot pads with as much padding.

All of these things are "traditional" and usually have their origin in something that was relevant at the time. Fencing on a piste made it easier to judge fencing exhibitions, but with electric scoring, that could be changed. Karateka and taekwondoists wear belts to denote their training and wear white, pajama like garments. But they could just as easily wear a long sleeve/long pant track suit and either display no rank or receive a patch or stripe to be sewn or ironed onto the suit.

Traditions are fine so long as they don't define or take away from what you do, or used to undermine what someone else does.

 

[Rich Parsons]

That does not answere how in hell a low block can represent a shoulder throw!! The shoulder is up high, the block goes low. if anything it represents a different throw, or toss. The movements, no matter how you turn, or face, do not in any way resemble that of a shoulder throw....

Do you "cock" you hand or arm before your block? Usually to the opposite side of your body to get body dynamics and hip action. Yes?

If you do no put someone behind you and hand onto them and do the motion. Could that not be a throw?

As to waiting, sometimes you have to learn something first to understand it. Yes obtuse I am.


Please explain to me why is 1 + 1 = 2? I will accept three of the majors proofs. (* Also please do not google or just link a page to answer *).

We learn that 1 + 1 = 2. Later after we know it and have accepted then one may have enough mathematics to ask why? and also to learn why?


Yes, I just related Martial Arts to Mathematics. Get over it. Any other subject with a similar situation could have been used, I just like this one as EVERYONE know that 1 + 1 = 2. But very few people know why.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Something I've been thinking about a lot lately: is tradition important to martiala arts? I tend to be a traditionalist, but I'd like to hear other peoples views on this.

What do you think tradition provides to your art, and is it important?

Why does a person train?

Are they training for pure self defense? If so then they might not care where the techinques came from, just how they work.

Are they training for fun or weight loss or because their parents put them into it to learn respect or self control or what have you? The last is important to have tradition asn it builds a structure. Structure builds disipline and displine can build respect and or self respect in the right environments.


That being said, I think a class needs to be formal at least in the minimal stance that it has an opening, a leader (Temperary Leaders during the class is good as well) and a closing. This structure lets people take it seriously . If it just is an open lets get together type training then Discourse/conversation will occur and this leads to no one taking it seriously.




As to secret techniques, I do not keep things secret, but I also do not teach certain things right away. Knife fighting is something I teach to those I know, not just the average person off the street.


One of the easiest ways to teach nothing is to try and teach everything. So If I teach you everything about a single move and mak sure it is perfect before I even discuss another technique, then one might never get to a second techinque. Most will get frustrated after they are confused on why it has to be a certain way as they do not understand yet. Such as when I am teaching sensitivity and ask them to listen to their body or their weapons and to feel the movement of their opponent through them. Try this with someone just off the street and they will be totally confused. But one can put them into the proper place with a good technique so that when they are ready they can begin to learn.

 

[aaradia]

Kframe,

Have you gone to your Instructor, told them you don't understand this move, and asked them for clarification? Whenever I am not getting something taught to me, I ask, ask again. If I am still not getting it, I ask different instructors hoping their slightly different take will get through etc. I apologize for being slow on the uptake, then ask again - however many times I have to until I get it! (Ok, it usually doesn't take that many times to ask to figure it out, but you get the idea.)

Seriously, the teacherss are there to help you understand. Let them know you are stuck. If they are good teachers (and I am assuming they are) , they will continue to try different ways to explain it to you until they help you understand.

 

[GaryR]

“Tradition is the living faith of the dead, traditionalism is the dead faith of the living."
― Jaroslav Jan Pelikan, The Vindication of Tradition: The 1983 Jefferson Lecture in the Humanities

I have learned to think that I am not better or wiser than those that came before me in my system.
What I've usually found is that there are very ,very good reasons why something is done in a particular way.
Anytime I ever get tempted to think I might modify something , I remember the couple of hundred years of accumulated wisdom that has been handed down to me.
Who the hell do I think I am to try and mess around with that?

One definition of tradition is that it is “an inherited pattern of thought or action”. We do what we do because it’s always been done that way. To many cultures in many eras slavery was tradition. The red coats thought it tradition to line up and have a stand off to fight wars. There are countless "traditions" that have been tossed away, and rightly so.

Think about where the above logic takes us. One guy say a thousand years ago created a system, afterwards everyone says the same as above "I am not better or wiser than those that came before me in my system", thus the same emulation gets passed on and on done in that "particular way" and unchanged. In fact, some would say the information gets lost as the years go by, and as people try to cling to it a De-evolution happens, the followers are more concerned about discovering what was "traditional", and not what might be most effective or evolutionary. Just because a guy lived 2000 years ago does not make him magically more qualified creatively.

Does the foregoing mean we should toss aside the knowledge handed down--no. But it should not be given ultimate deference, and assume things cannot be added or subtracted. You don't want to be that bad new manager who walks into an office and changes everything without first learning how it works or doesn't work to begin with.

KFRAME:

Sometimes it's best to think of forms like a bible verse. They are often vague and befuddled, and if you ask 10 clerics you will get 10 different answers. To feel like an authority they will twist the movement enough to make it into a throw, X, or Y application, even though they are in fact dissimilar to the forms movement. Trying to cram in the physics and biomechanics of a throw into a low block is doing you a disservice. All to often teachers will break down forms into applications that are so far afield the movement, they shouldn't bother with the correlation-it does more harm than good.

That said, there are basic concepts and principles of movement that can yield multiple applications. If you can learn one concept/principle of movement and use it to manifest 100 techniques then great. Sometimes one has to be taught 100 techniques in order to figure out the concept, but I would say if that is so your teacher is inadequate.

There are layers of skill to many movements and applications that you will in fact not see (or feel) until much later. But that doesn't mean you are off base in this instance.

best,

G

 

[Kframe]

Kframe,

Have you gone to your Instructor, told them you don't understand this move, and asked them for clarification? Whenever I am not getting something taught to me, I ask, ask again. If I am still not getting it, I ask different instructors hoping their slightly different take will get through etc. I apologize for being slow on the uptake, then ask again - however many times I have to until I get it! (Ok, it usually doesn't take that many times to ask to figure it out, but you get the idea.)

Seriously, the teacherss are there to help you understand. Let them know you are stuck. If they are good teachers (and I am assuming they are) , they will continue to try different ways to explain it to you until they help you understand.

Aaradia, this was only a intro class, I was trying to be respectful and listen to him. As to asking question I learned something at the previous mma school I attended. That I ask to many questions, and over complicate things. So I am endeavoring to ask my instructors at my new mma gym and at any places I visit, as few a questions as possible.

So apparently kata is excruciatingly complicated... I don't know, its tobad people who created the arts had not heard of the K.I.S.S principal...

I guess I just don't have enough time in a TMA to understand it. Problem is, I don't have the time to dedicate to actually training one.. I would find important skills getting no attention. Maybe when I hit 40 and ill have the time to actually do it...