Is Toshindo still Ninjutsu?

[Obi Wan Shinobi]

I agree and for the most part I consider it as SKH's interpretation of what he learned out of all his training. As for the actual Ninjutsu part well you pretty much have to really look around for an instructor who
1. Has actually been taught and trained in the actual Ninjutsu aspect of Bujinkan.....and
2. Is willing to pass on and teach that training.
Ninjutsu was a by product of centuries of war and oppression in Feudal Japan. Pretty much after the Tokugawa Shogunate was in place and Japan was at peace there was no longer a need for such skills. Now its all about taijutsu and self development.

 

[ToShinDoKa]

Well you must likewise realize, Bujinkan is Dr. Hatsumi's translation of ninpo. Shoto Tanemura-sensei believes different from him, although they both claim to be grandmasters of Ninpo (claims which I dare not deny).

 

[ToShinDoKa]

...IMO, no martial art taught today is *exactly* taught as it was hundreds of years ago. However, that doesn't lessen it's roots nor deny it's right to be called by the original style name.

I agree whole-heartedly. It is the responsibility of teachers to transmit the arts as they've seen practical and most beneficial. Hatsumi-sensei saw a value in joining the schools together and teaching everyone world wide (although Takamatsu-den is said to wouldn't have done either). Mr. Hayes has chosen to cater the art he mastered to the benefit of those in his nation.

 

[ToShinDoKa]

Yes in deed.

 

[kwaichang]

Well you must likewise realize, Bujinkan is Dr. Hatsumi's translation of ninpo. Shoto Tanemura-sensei believes different from him, although they both claim to be grandmasters of Ninpo (claims which I dare not deny).

Indeed.
Yet one must remember, Takamatsu Sensei chose Hatsumi as his successor and gave him the scrolls of empowerment.
Tanemura was a senior teacher under Hatsumi and had "interpretive differences" as to how and what should be taught. He therefore, left the Togakure Ryu and started his own style. As the "soke" of a new style, he is entitled to be called a grandmaster.

personal note: I had the fortunate experience of training in Japan when Tanemura Sensei was still with Hatsumi Sensei. He was a great teacher; hard but great; and helped me immensely. ...especiall how to get up off of the very hard ground.:wink:

 

[ToShinDoKa]

True, but being a family rite, after Takamatsu-den's passing, and Hatsumi-sensei's and Tanemura-sensei's disagreements, it was said Tanemura gained the approval of sokeship from Takamatsu-den's wife. Honestly, though, this is of no business or concern of mine, personally, so I'll probably leave it at that. Either way, I've seen Tanemura's teachings and though though his teaching styles seems a little more ridged due to the deep samurai teachings, and family roots, and the karate style he headmasters, his is still classical ninjutsu.

You can't take ninjutsu from someone who's already learned and mastered it because they don't agree with the way you teach it, especially when you were together fellow students and not so much Master and Student. Anshu Hayes referred to his first instructor (Tanemura-sensei) as the Grandmaster's ASSISTANT, not his subordinate or best student. (Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art)

 

[Kreth]

True, but being a family rite, after Takamatsu-den's passing....

I thought at first this was a typo, but you do it consistently. -den is not an honorific like -san, mmm'kay?

 

[kwaichang]

True, but being a family rite, after Takamatsu-den's passing, and Hatsumi-sensei's and Tanemura-sensei's disagreements, it was said Tanemura gained the approval of sokeship from Takamatsu-den's wife.

I never heard of this but then I don't know everything. Normally only the soke can confer leadership not a relative. :angel:

You can't take ninjutsu from someone who's already learned and mastered it because they don't agree with the way you teach it, especially when you were together fellow students and not so much Master and Student. Anshu Hayes referred to his first instructor (Tanemura-sensei) as the Grandmaster's ASSISTANT, not his subordinate or best student. (Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art)

hmm, I wasn't taking it away from anyone, or am I misinterpreting your remarks?

and, yes, indeed, Tanemura-sensei was Hatsumi's assistant, also known to us lower ranks as a senior student...don't let semantics change the deference or honor bestowed upon him...even SKH, up until being made Shidoshi (and even afterwards in some cases) when asked what his ranking was referred to himself as a "senior student and teacher".

 

[Hoteki]

Ok, hi just a few things:


<<True, but being a family rite, after Takamatsu-den's passing, and Hatsumi-sensei's and Tanemura-sensei's disagreements, it was said Tanemura gained the approval of sokeship from Takamatsu-den's wife.>>
<<I never heard of this but then I don't know everything. Normally only the soke can confer leadership not a relative>>

Noone from the Genbukan has ever claimed that Tanemura Sensei received any sokeships from Takamatsu Sensei's wife. He went to see her and talk to her and tell her about his plans for the Genbukan and to receive her "blessing" in that respect only back in 1984

As for the rest Tanemura Sensei was a student of Hatsumi Sensei, but after leaving he became a student of other students of Takamatsu Sensei and received sokeship from them, for example Gikan ryu, is hotly debated, however in the Genbukan it comes from Sato Kinbei Sensei who received it from Takamatsu Sensei after the passing of Akimoto Sensei, also Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu from Sato Sensei and Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu from Masaji Kimura Sensei. There are many elements that make up the Genbukan as pertains to reasoning for leaving the Bujinkan, etc, Tanemura Sensei has an official statement here: dated 5-8

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?331&ceService_serviceID=1&ceTopic_topicID=1

 

[kaizasosei]

i think Toshindo is just an offshoot or even merely a copy of Bujinkan.
is toshindo ninjutsu? tough question because i see people constantly playing around with definitions of ninjutsu and often there are people that practice for a long time only to end up asking themselves the same question in respect to their training.
In my opinion, the only major flaw of toshindo, is that it does not realize the importance of the japanese cultural aspects of the arts. Toshido is very optimistic to think that such a drastic shift of cultur will end up successful over the long run. not that i am overly against anyone. it's just i think that much of what we value as ninjutsu and ninja arts, is deeply intertwined with japanese history and culture. indeed, the spiritual aspects are very feelable in various ma.

then again, it's just an idea. With Hayessensei experience with tibetan buddhism and all kinds of other cultures, it may well work out. good luck to toshindo.
however, i myself personally cannot understand the break not to mention some of the explainations for the separation.



j

 

[kwaichang]

Ok, hi just a few things:

Excellent statement. I still maintain that students, no matter how highly ranked, cannot convey soke status. Tanemura-Sensei could and did start his own schools and that alone entitles him to the titles, respects and continuing of lineage for his school of thought.

 

[kwaichang]

i think Toshindo is just an offshoot or even merely a copy of Bujinkan.
is toshindo ninjutsu? tough question because i see people constantly playing around with definitions of ninjutsu and often there are people that practice for a long time only to end up asking themselves the same question in respect to their training.
In my opinion, the only major flaw of toshindo, is that it does not realize the importance of the japanese cultural aspects of the arts. Toshido is very optimistic to think that such a drastic shift of cultur will end up successful over the long run. not that i am overly against anyone. it's just i think that much of what we value as ninjutsu and ninja arts, is deeply intertwined with japanese history and culture. indeed, the spiritual aspects are very feelable in various ma.

then again, it's just an idea. With Hayes-Sensei experience with tibetan buddhism and all kinds of other cultures, it may well work out. good luck to toshindo.
however, i myself personally cannot understand the break not to mention some of the explainations for the separation.j

Indeed.

IMO, the heart of the ninja teachings has never gone away, just gone underground and now reserved for the highest of rankings.

 

[Toshindo4ever]

Indeed.

IMO, the heart of the ninja teachings has never gone away, just gone underground and now reserved for the highest of rankings.

You can still get it in Toshindo. But according to Anshu, the highest teachings can't be taught in the Bujinkan because there was a whole lot of only superficial students who were more interested in back stabbing him and feeding their ego than gaining knowledge. But if you are good enough, you can still get that type of knowledge from Anshu.

 

[Kreth]

You can still get it in Toshindo. But according to Anshu, the highest teachings can't be taught in the Bujinkan because there was a whole lot of only superficial students who were more interested in back stabbing him and feeding their ego than gaining knowledge. But if you are good enough, you can still get that type of knowledge from Anshu.

So you've received some of this special training?

 

[Toshindo4ever]

So you've received some of this special training?

I know of it. Have you ever seen kuji kiri training in the Bujinkan? Well, it is taught to some people in Toshindo. Considering the dangers involved, I can understand why Hatsumi sensei would only teach it to a person with the time and knowledge of someone like Anshu. All the folks that claim to be more skilled with more time in Japan show just how little they matter when they admit they have never been shown things like that.

 

[Kreth]

Have you ever seen kuji kiri training in the Bujinkan?

Personally? No. But then again, I'm not living in Japan and training with Hatsumi sensei and the shihan on a regular basis.
Have you ever *seen* kuji kiri training in Toshindo?

Considering the dangers involved, I can understand why Hatsumi sensei would only teach it to a person with the time and knowledge of someone like Anshu.

What dangers would those be?

All the folks that claim to be more skilled with more time in Japan show just how little they matter when they admit they have never been shown things like that.

I don't think anyone here claimed to be more skilled than Hayes. I certainly did not. I did say that I have trained with mere mortals who started after Hayes, and in my opinion they are more skilled and more knowledgeable.
Take it with a grain of salt, though. I only started my Bujinkan training 16 years ago, so I may be a poor judge of skill.

 

[jks9199]

You can still get it in Toshindo. But according to Anshu, the highest teachings can't be taught in the Bujinkan because there was a whole lot of only superficial students who were more interested in back stabbing him and feeding their ego than gaining knowledge. But if you are good enough, you can still get that type of knowledge from Anshu.

Y'know... that's a pretty suspect justification there.

"It's all those evil people attacking poor little me that keep this from the rest of you..."

Sorry, I find reasoning like that kind of suspect.

I'm not suggesting that Mr. Hayes isn't skilled, or isn't teaching what he believes to be the best way, or is being deliberately dishonest. There's plenty of room for simply having different views of the same event -- especially when there's issues of cross-cultural communication (or lack thereof).

I'd like to refer you to an intersting article I recently read:http://www.ichinendojo.com/article6.html It may off you a new take on these events.

 

[Toshindo4ever]

Personally? No. But then again, I'm not living in Japan and training with Hatsumi sensei and the shihan on a regular basis.
Have you ever *seen* kuji kiri training in Toshindo?

That is a silly question. It is a well known fact that Anshu is ordained and that he teaches these things.

 

[Toshindo4ever]

I'm not suggesting that Mr. Hayes isn't skilled, or isn't teaching what he believes to be the best way, or is being deliberately dishonest. There's plenty of room for simply having different views of the same event -- especially when there's issues of cross-cultural communication (or lack thereof).

I'd like to refer you to an intersting article I recently read:http://www.ichinendojo.com/article6.html It may off you a new take on these events.

People are indeed trying to say that Anshu is a liar. And since he is such an honorable man, I take offense at that. If he is telling us that he is still a student of Hatsumi sensei when he is not, that would be a lie. And he is not a liar. He has proven to be the most honorable man in martial arts today.

That article was written by someone who in the first sentence says he is not an expert. At no point does he say that he witnessed what was going on. And I have it on good authority that he does not really live in Japan.

 

[jks9199]

People are indeed trying to say that Anshu is a liar. And since he is such an honorable man, I take offense at that. If he is telling us that he is still a student of Hatsumi sensei when he is not, that would be a lie. And he is not a liar. He has proven to be the most honorable man in martial arts today.

That article was written by someone who in the first sentence says he is not an expert. At no point does he say that he witnessed what was going on. And I have it on good authority that he does not really live in Japan.

At this point, it's clear to me that you have a great deal of respect for the founder of your style, which is a good thing. It's possible for others to respect him without believing the same things you do. Let me politely suggest that the discussion move towards training, instead of what Toshindo is or is not. Maybe it's time to simply agree to disagree, and leave a 2+ year old event in the past -- whatever it may have been or not been.