Is there a distinction between the "Agricultural Bolo" and the "Fighting Bolo"?

[Guro Harold]

Say what you will, but Bram is doing his thing and minding his own business. Why would anyone have a problem with that?

Sometimes we try to pigeon-hole people into the image of we want them to be but that is only in our own minds. If a person is mature, they are not worrying about how others perceive or have perceived them or worrying about previous personal mistakes or the mistakes of others. They concentrate on their continued personal development.

So can there be critical discussion of facts and figures? By all means. That is what intellectual discourse is about. Should we rub people's nose into our perceived expectations? How can we do so when it is so hard to even please ourselves and meet our own expectations.

Therefore much respect to the goes to those senior students who have lead the way in expanding the knowledge and capturing in video, book, or teaching their research in the arts.

Palusut

 

[Guro Harold]

Well said.

It never ceases to amaze me how brave people are when seated at a keyboard.

Yeah, I didn't need a secret id to hide behind when I said it either!!! :wink2: :wink:

 

[Dan Anderson]

I hope you're not saying anything about Dan's MA-80. I know for a FACT that he gives credit to Remy when ever possible!


:whip:

Tim,
Thanks for having my back. Tim K and I have spoken a number of times on the subject of MA-80 and he's not referring to me.

Boy, has this thread gotten way heated about several things.

[So,] again, who knows if there is a proper noun "jungle bolo"?

[If] there are covert or overt cheap shots being take at Bram, too bad so sad. He's worked his butt off getting to the core of the blade use of Modern Arnis and has gotten recognition for it from others.

I was talking to him tonight and one thing he wants known is that his love of the blade/bolo is no way any kind of dis for the stick. He admires the hell out of what the "stickers" can do. His way is the blade and he's happy that this aspect of Modern Arnis is finally coming to the surface.

Cool. I can live with that. It gives me more to work on. What he learned from Prof. Presas is what he learned, whether in the open of behind closed doors. Here's a question for all of you out there in cyberland:

Did Prof. Presas ever do tai chi's pushing hands with you? Nighty-o. It's late and I've been through a full day of CSSD training. I'm tired.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Tom - congratulations on your promotion.

 

[DoxN4cer]

I hope you're not saying anything about Dan's MA-80. I know for a FACT that he gives credit to Remy when ever possible!

Nope, and your effort to instigate something between Dan and I won't work. Your comment would appear as though YOU are making some sort of inferrence though. There's a history there as well, but readers can review the archives for themselves.

As Dan has already stated, he and I have spoken about MA-80. I am on record both here and in print supporting Dan's efforts. Dan gives credit where it is due. IMHO, Dan makes an unadulterated presentation of the art. He doesn't present material from another system and call it his own creation added to MA with the Professor's seal of approval.

MA-80 is pure RP MA, codified by Dan Anderson, not MA mixed with BJJ, JKD and a smattering knife and stick work from various outside sources to fill in the gaps.

TK

 

[DoxN4cer]

Yeah, I didn't need a secret id to hide behind when I said it either!!! :wink2: :wink:

Amen to that.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

He doesn't present material from another system and call it his own creation added to MA with the Professor's seal of approval.

Then who were you referring to?

 

[DoxN4cer]

Then who were you referring to?

Sorry, not going to enetertain you. You know exactly who I'm talking about, and that's why you asked the question. Clever, Tim; trying to draw me into making an inflamatory comment that could get me suspended from the forum again. You're going to have to try harder than that.

Anyway, we're all still waiting for you to contribute something other than inflamatory emoticons, snide comments on my rep board and nebulous statements aimed at creating negative press for someone else.

We now interrupt the degradation of the thread and return you to our regularly scheduled program...

Ahem...

Back to agriculural and fighting bolos:

I think that the classification and purpose of a bolo is in it's design, and in who made it.

In my collection, I have what I would classify as a "Farmer's Bolo". It's like the bolos seen in Apocolypse Now, the one they killed the carabaw with (... ah I hear you guys in the back... yes the movie was supposed to happen in Cambodia, but it was filmed in Pangasinan). It is of average size and capable of cutting what ever I choose to swing it at. However, it is obviously designed as a multi-purpose tool rather than a weapon. It's heavy, too heavy to be used with any sort of finesse, and it's constrution lends itself to chopping, digging and even driving stakes and large nails. You would be at a serious disadvantage if you were to try and fight with it. The balance is terrible, as the end of the blade is very wide and heavy.

I have other bolos in my collection that I would call fighting bolos or jungle bolos. While many of them could be used for more than just hacking flesh from your enemies. It is quite clear, however, that they were not designed for utility. That is very evident when you pick them up the are balanced and designed to take pieces off of your enemy... big pieces.

Bram's Presas Jungle Bolo replicas fall into the latter category. They were designed with combat in mind.

The only blade from the PI that I know of that would fit into both categories is the barong. It's shape allows you to do all the things the farmer's bolo can do, and still affords enough balance to be used in combat. The weight is distributed differently due to its leaf shape.

Tim Kashino

 

[DoxN4cer]

... Did Prof. Presas ever do tai chi's pushing hands with you?
QUOTE]


No, but a few MA people have; Dr. Barber for one.

Now that you mention it, you can see a correlation in the passing movements.

Tell us more, Dan.


TK

 

[Emptyglass]

I think that the classification and purpose of a bolo is in it's design, and in who made it.

Tim Kashino:

This is the key point and a good one to make. Any bolo can be used to do Modern Arnis techniques. However, some will perform better than others for specific techniques due to the nature of their construction. The Presas family bolo utilized by Master Bram Frank in his video series is suitable for cutting and stabbing and is long enough to penetrate to a vital area on any human being.

Also, it has a hand guard which is a feature that would lead one to believe there is a reason for it. I believe it's there to keep a person's hand from sliding onto the blade (most machetes and bolos I have seen and none of the examples I own have this feature, their handles are shaped to keep your hand on them when using them to cut brush and other vegetation in a chopping motion) but more importantly to keep other things OFF of the hand during its use (like another blade which slides down its length).

As well as being useful for keeping the hand off of the blade on a forceful sak-sak or sungkit, the guard keeps the handle from entering the body as it is wider than the blade.

From what I can see, the Presas family bolo, is better designed for cutting flesh than chopping wood or hacking vegatables.

Rich Curren

 

[DoxN4cer]

Right on, Kapatid, toto-o.

TK

 

[Cruentus]

Back to agriculural and fighting bolos:

I think that the classification and purpose of a bolo is in it's design, and in who made it.

In my collection, I have what I would classify as a "Farmer's Bolo". It's like the bolos seen in Apocolypse Now, the one they killed the carabaw with (... ah I hear you guys in the back... yes the movie was supposed to happen in Cambodia, but it was filmed in Pangasinan). It is of average size and capable of cutting what ever I choose to swing it at. However, it is obviously designed as a multi-purpose tool rather than a weapon. It's heavy, too heavy to be used with any sort of finesse, and it's constrution lends itself to chopping, digging and even driving stakes and large nails. You would be at a serious disadvantage if you were to try and fight with it. The balance is terrible, as the end of the blade is very wide and heavy.

I have other bolos in my collection that I would call fighting bolos or jungle bolos. While many of them could be used for more than just hacking flesh from your enemies. It is quite clear, however, that they were not designed for utility. That is very evident when you pick them up the are balanced and designed to take pieces off of your enemy... big pieces.

Bram's Presas Jungle Bolo replicas fall into the latter category. They were designed with combat in mind.

The only blade from the PI that I know of that would fit into both categories is the barong. It's shape allows you to do all the things the farmer's bolo can do, and still affords enough balance to be used in combat. The weight is distributed differently due to its leaf shape.

Tim Kashino

This is the key point and a good one to make. Any bolo can be used to do Modern Arnis techniques. However, some will perform better than others for specific techniques due to the nature of their construction. The Presas family bolo utilized by Master Bram Frank in his video series is suitable for cutting and stabbing and is long enough to penetrate to a vital area on any human being.

Also, it has a hand guard which is a feature that would lead one to believe there is a reason for it. I believe it's there to keep a person's hand from sliding onto the blade (most machetes and bolos I have seen and none of the examples I own have this feature, their handles are shaped to keep your hand on them when using them to cut brush and other vegetation in a chopping motion) but more importantly to keep other things OFF of the hand during its use (like another blade which slides down its length).

As well as being useful for keeping the hand off of the blade on a forceful sak-sak or sungkit, the guard keeps the handle from entering the body as it is wider than the blade.

From what I can see, the Presas family bolo, is better designed for cutting flesh than chopping wood or hacking vegatables.

Rich Curren

Thanks, guys, for putting this thread back on subject.

I did intend to present what I found out through my research about the bolo's, and to spark a discussion about the tool. I did not intend for this thread to be a game of character assasination on Bram, or on any other party.

So, thanks again for getting things back on track!

Paul

 

[DoxN4cer]

Thanks, guys, for putting this thread back on subject.

I did intend to present what I found out through my research about the bolo's, and to spark a discussion about the tool. I did not intend for this thread to be a game of character assasination on Bram, or on any other party.

So, thanks again for getting things back on track!

Paul

You're welcome... but somebody had to do it.

I know you didn't intend for the thread to become a smear campaign, it was dragged it off course by some nasty little internet goblin. Gotta watch out for those things.... they should make a bug spay for 'em. Maybe it would be more like a fungicidal agent.

TK

 

[Cruentus]

Bart posted this in a different thread, and I thought it applied well here...

I don't know Bram Frank from Adam. But as a Tagalog speaker I do know that "bolong gubat" sounds pretty weird and kind of off. That's the direct translation of "jungle bolo". In my experience among the lay person a bolo is a bolo is a bolo. It's just as good for chopping coconuts as chicken heads. The differences are only in the manufacturer and the person using it. Filipinos think of a bolo much like Americans think of a hammer. It's a tool that almost everybody has around the house. The kids can't use it till there a certain age. And everybody accepts that it could be and has been used as a weapon. But to me "jungle bolo" has the same ring to it as "forest hammer". It's not too weird, but it makes just as much sense.

So my suspicion is that the term is used by a small minority of people in one part of Negros or that GM Presas coined the term himself and passed it on to Bram and others. Maybe "jungle bolo" sounds better in Bisaya than Tagalog. I concede that bolo could be used as a general term and that for instance a "pinuti" would be a type of bolo. Also, just because the term strikes me as odd, doesn't mean that the techniques won't work and that it's not legit blade work. I don't favor the blade anyway and I haven't seen the DVD's, so I don't know. People I respect seem to think it's good stuff and without looking at it myself, I'm not going to pass judgement. It's only the term that I have reservations about.

Just my two cents on the matter.

My feeling is that Bram just decided to call his product "Presas fighting jungle bolo." I see no evidence of there being a linguistic distinction between "fighting bolo" and "agricultural bolo" or "Jungle bolo" vs. "celery chopping bolo" or any such thing. The only distinctions that are made linguistically are tusok and tabak as Andyz mentioned. It is important to note here that having a name for every specific thing is more of a western/american thing. That's why we have stuff like, "parring knives, skinning knives, butter knives, steak knives, chef's knives, etc." Linguistically, distinctions often aren't made in other cultures in the same manner. A knife is a knife...a bolo is a bolo, regardless of design and use.

However, in America we often make linguistic distinctions to describe things. So, Bram labeling his product "Jungle fighting bolo" is a method of describing his product. There is nothing wrong with Bram making this distinction, considering that if you said "bolo" to most americans, they might wonder why you'd fight with a old western style neck-tie anyways. Besides, he was clear that it is just his name for his product, and not an actual filipino term or distinction.

Now, with that, just because there is no language distinction for something in a specific culture, this does not mean that things weren't designed for a purpose in mind. I think that a bolo with a slender clip pointed tip, a particular balance, and a guard to protect the hand from another blade was probably made with the purpose of self defense in mind.

:ultracool

 

[arnisandyz]

Bart posted this in a different thread, and I thought it applied well here...

from the newspaper stories thread i posted here http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15701&highlight=jungle+bolo

The writer makes reference to a "jungle bolo". Why didn't just say bolo?keep in mind the audience for these articles are Filipinos most of which are in the cities. Possibly the writer was making reference to "jungle bolo" as local color as there is a class distinction between "city folk and rural people. Most people living in the city would have no use for such a tool, when in rural (or jungle) areas it is very common.

could it possibly be Mr Bram Frank is also using the term "Jungle bolo" as a marketing tool to add some mystique to the name. it being marketed to Westerners and all? I'm not saying this is wrong, as a matter of fact it is quite smart to do so.

 

[Emptyglass]

could it possibly be Mr Bram Frank is also using the term "Jungle bolo" as a marketing tool to add some mystique to the name. it being marketed to Westerners and all? I'm not saying this is wrong, as a matter of fact it is quite smart to do so.

Hello:

Having met Senior Master Bram Frank and from conversing with him on an irregular basis I would think this is not the case. He doesn't tend to need or want to embellish anything. Just the straight facts. More likely, this is what he was told it was called (although having watched the DVDs more than once I'm still not sure he ever calls it a "jungle bolo". Presas bolo yes. I will watch again tonight. That term may have been put forth in the tangle of posts and e-mails that have occurred since the release of the video.) by Grandmaster Remy Presas. So that is the name he uses.

If you like, ask him yourself via the CSSDSC website (worth checking out by anyone interested in Modern Arnis by the way: http://www.cssdsc.com). I'm sure he would be happy to give you an answer as he is a very personable fellow.

One question though, other than myself and Senior Master Dan Anderson who have reviewed them, has anyone else purchased and watched these videos that are generating so much comment? Again, I highly recommend them and think they can show anyone interested in Modern Arnis (or FMA in general for that matter) some good material.

Rich Curren

 

[Emptyglass]

Having reviewed the DVDs again, it is Senior Master Bram Frank who uses the term Presas jungle bolo. He uses it in reference to the idea of this discussion. That some bolos are better suited for agriculture and others are better (by the nature of their design) for cutting flesh. It is his opinion that the Presas jungle bolo design falls into this category. However both <u>can</u> be used for either purpose, just like any other knife.


Rich Curren

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Did Prof. Presas ever do tai chi's pushing hands with you?

Yes-

At the 2nd Buffalo Modern Arnis camp Remy did demonstrate a pushing hands drill from trapping hands.

:asian:

 

[leomel pino]

actually a fighting bolo is quite longer than the farming one, and a fighting bolo is also called as pinuti in our language but often times the pinuti is not usually used for fighting but also for agricultural use like cutting trees for clearing the field.