but I find it difficult to get history on these...especially exact dates. I was wondering if you had any good resources for me.
Yes, resources are hard to come by. The few that i have found you have already cited in this or other threads. If I do find any others i'll be sure to post them.
Here is a script from people discussing Bolos vs Moro type blades in the FMA...
BladeForums.com: The Leading Edge of Knife Discussion > Tactics & Training > Filipino Combat Arts Forum > sword preferences...
TheMorningStar
07-22-2001, 06:03 PM
it seems the general consensus nowadays is toward the usage of moro blades, yet many respective systems were never traditionally geared toward them... would anyone like to come forward and explain why so?
don't get me wrong, personally there is almost nothing like a moro blade in comparison, but does anyone here have any other native sword preferences then those moro/islamic in nature?
bayani
07-23-2001, 01:24 AM
Y'know, as far as I understand it, apart from the long utilitarian bush knives that are generically known in the Northern and Central Philippines as "bolos", the only true Filipino *swords* ARE the Muslim blades...Not to say that there aren't different types of Bolos--the Pinuti, the Matulis, the Itak, the Ginunting, etc....and I guess they can be kinda lumped into the sword category (and it's not to say that they aren't awesome battle blades when made well), but they don't have the same level of mystique and history that the Filipino Muslim blades have...nor were they intended to have it...again, they were meant for work...
Just a thought, be safe and well.
~bayani~
Federico
07-23-2001, 02:21 AM
Gotta agree with Bayani. Most of the Filipino blades used by Christians were primarily just bolos. Now there is precedence for the use of European blades by various police and military, but in general these werent used in the fashion as seen in arnis. Instead they were primarily used as they were intended, and more or less were for dress. For a long time Spain outlawed much weaponry so that would explain why bolos were used instead of more combat oriented blades such as used by the Moros.
As for the use of moro blades in modern FMA well to really understand how they function and what works with them you gotta handle and antique. As for reasoning why most FMA isnt really traditionally geared towards them is simple. Most FMA taught in the US isnt/wasnt invented or used by Moros. So most FMA wasnt developed around Moro swords. If you ever watch Cecil Quirino's Sailing the Sulu Seas they have a Moro do some moves in traditional silat and kuntaw. Very different than most FMA, though there are similarities.
TheMorningStar
07-23-2001, 11:32 PM
thanks guys, i really appreciate your feedback on this topic... i guess i just put that out there due to the extensive insistent usage of some fma practicioners for moro blades when their very systems were geared toward bolos and the like. i guess it also has to do w/ my feelings towards those few that take advantage of the pilipino culture and it's weaponry for granted, never fully understanding the gravity of the weapon's place in history and in my heart...
Bukidnon
07-24-2001, 12:01 PM
I would have to disagree with Bayani and federico. There are non-moro swords in the RP. The pinuti and talibon are combat weapons, not field blades. The lumad (non-muslim tribes of Mindinao bukidnon, manobo, t'boli etc.) have there own swords. Bolo is generic term for blade although it does generally refer to a utlitiy blade. But if you were to show a Barong to Pinoy they would probably call it a bolo.
This kris and kampilan were not strictly used buy the Moro either. There use was common in the Visayas in pre-hispanic Philippines. Only with the arrival of the Spanish did its use decline.
Why the use of Moro blades in modern FMA ? Romantacism(sp?). If you use a moro blade this somehow connects you to the fact that the moros were never conquered. Its the same reason some systems try to draw a connection to silat. That is that systems that are connected to silat are older and therefore more "authentic".
But I think the most significant reason for the use of moro swords in modern FMA it that they look really cool. Which I see nothing wrong with that.
Regards,
V
Federico
07-24-2001, 02:17 PM
Bukidnon hello. While I wont argue with you that the non-muslim tribes of Mindanao had their own swords I would have to say for many they still fall under the term Moro. In saying this I would have to say look under who made the term Moro in the first place, The Spanish. It was a generic term that they applied to most people of the Southern Philippines not just the Muslims. It is also a very very perjurative word, and I dislike using it but unfortunately it is so widespread it is too difficult to speak of these peoples without using the term. Anyways the yakan (questionably muslim) and bagabo have had strong ties with the sultanates, so easily would be viewed by outsiders as Moros.
As for the use of the kris and kampilan during pre-hispanic PI that would delve into the original spread of mohomedism and also the common cultural traits possessed by most Filipinos. So the abandoning of these cultural artifacts would be a key signifier when considering the denotation of usage. There is also some disagreement over the use of the word kampilan whe used in reference to Northern Filipinos. It is possible that though the name was used it was for a different blade.
Bukidnon
07-25-2001, 12:57 PM
I guess the term moro depends on were you come from. The tribes of Mindanao are generally refered to by the christians of Mindanao as belonging to two groups Moro or Manonbo ( muslim or pagan). The spanish also refered to them in this way. The Manobo are actually a specfic group, but the term is used generally to refer to all pagan tribes by christians in Mindanao.
The term used by the native pagan peoples is 'Lumad'.
We should do our best in forums such as this one to educate. Thus my distingishing of the two. Just because others are ignorant we should not incourage this ignorance.
I still stand by my statement that there are as bayani out it "true non-moro swords" both inregards to the lumad and now predominatly christain population. Its all in the way we use the term bolo and moro. Can a sword be a bolo? yes. Are all bolos swords? no.
Regards
Vince
bayani
07-25-2001, 01:47 PM
Hey, Bukidnon...just wanna say thanks for the heads up on the term for the non-Muslim pagan tribes of the Southern P.I....and, yes I KNOW that this is kinda outside the scope of the original topic, but (and this question is directed to Bukidnon, Federico, and anybody else that cares to jump in) just WHAT (and HOW) do they worship? I've heard variously that they are "animists", worshipping nature and the like--but is it the old "Bathala" religion ("Bathala" being a name used for God by the ancient Pinoy, FYI) or what? Coz, frankly I don't know...How does their worship impact upon/reflect their warrior culture (if at all)? The Muslims of the Southlands have "parang sabbil/juramentado", that I know...and the Christian Eskrimadors often retain many practices/beliefs that go back to the "old ways" (anting-anting, etc.)...does the pagan religion(s) date back to the pre-Muslim times (Shri Vijaya, as opposed to Majapahit--which was staunchly Muslim), etc? Any info on this would be most appreciated, coz I really don't know all that much on the topic, and I'm finding this all quite fascinating...
Good thread so far, till later, be safe and joyful...
~bayani~
Bukidnon
07-26-2001, 09:57 AM
Bayani,
There are many groups. Off the the top of my head bukidnon, manobo, western manobo, matigsalug, bagobo, hinuguan(sp?), t'boli, tagoloan . This is only a few examples. I don't know what there individual practices are, but for the most part they are animist. I don't think it is same as the "Bathala" religion which was a specfic belief system, I believe of the Tagalogs. I witnessed a Bukidnon tribe cermoney in bukidnon province back in 97. Were there was ritual sacrafice of pigs and chickens. I do not really know that much about the other groups. I honestly don't know how religion affects there warrior culture.
This does date back before the arrival of islam. The Bukidnon,Tagoloan and Hinuguan (basically the same group) maybe a glimps of what the ancient visayans were like because there oral tradition is that they came from the sea and coast. They went inland to escape islam. The city of Cagayan de Oro takes its name for a bukidnon word (if I remember correctly 'Kagayyan') "Place of Shame", were they lost a battle against the Maranao.
What I can tell you about there warrior art is that it is the spear (not the sword) which plays the more important role in combat and ceremony. This is similar to the ancient visayans according to the great pre-historian on the Philippines W.H. Scott.
If you are interested in more email me privately.
BTW: Bayani, we have met. J. Jacobo introduced us at Bakbakan's Masters of the Blade.
Regards,
Vince
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. The fact is that mankind tailors tools to fit the needs of the job, and to make jobs easier. If we tailor knives today for combat rather then simple utility, then why would it be so far fetched to believe that the Filipino's would do the same? Furthermore, simple physics and a little understanding of history will tell you that a top heavy blade with a rounded, or less drastic point is more suited for swinging and hacking...ie. cutting folige or crops. A little history and physics will also tell you that a clip point was less effecient for daily work because you had more risk of breaking the tip then with the other points, but the clip point (which traces back to the spanish saber) is specifically designed for combat (opening a wound, stabbing, and reverse or back cut specifically). However, to realize things from a historical perspective may require a trip to the library, and may require (gasp) a little research. I know, I know...what fun is that.
