Is there a distinction between the "Agricultural Bolo" and the "Fighting Bolo"?

[arnisandyz]

but I find it difficult to get history on these...especially exact dates. I was wondering if you had any good resources for me.

Yes, resources are hard to come by. The few that i have found you have already cited in this or other threads. If I do find any others i'll be sure to post them.

Here is a script from people discussing Bolos vs Moro type blades in the FMA...
BladeForums.com: The Leading Edge of Knife Discussion > Tactics & Training > Filipino Combat Arts Forum > sword preferences...


TheMorningStar
07-22-2001, 06:03 PM
it seems the general consensus nowadays is toward the usage of moro blades, yet many respective systems were never traditionally geared toward them... would anyone like to come forward and explain why so?
don't get me wrong, personally there is almost nothing like a moro blade in comparison, but does anyone here have any other native sword preferences then those moro/islamic in nature?

bayani
07-23-2001, 01:24 AM
Y'know, as far as I understand it, apart from the long utilitarian bush knives that are generically known in the Northern and Central Philippines as "bolos", the only true Filipino *swords* ARE the Muslim blades...Not to say that there aren't different types of Bolos--the Pinuti, the Matulis, the Itak, the Ginunting, etc....and I guess they can be kinda lumped into the sword category (and it's not to say that they aren't awesome battle blades when made well), but they don't have the same level of mystique and history that the Filipino Muslim blades have...nor were they intended to have it...again, they were meant for work...

Just a thought, be safe and well.

~bayani~

Federico
07-23-2001, 02:21 AM
Gotta agree with Bayani. Most of the Filipino blades used by Christians were primarily just bolos. Now there is precedence for the use of European blades by various police and military, but in general these werent used in the fashion as seen in arnis. Instead they were primarily used as they were intended, and more or less were for dress. For a long time Spain outlawed much weaponry so that would explain why bolos were used instead of more combat oriented blades such as used by the Moros.

As for the use of moro blades in modern FMA well to really understand how they function and what works with them you gotta handle and antique. As for reasoning why most FMA isnt really traditionally geared towards them is simple. Most FMA taught in the US isnt/wasnt invented or used by Moros. So most FMA wasnt developed around Moro swords. If you ever watch Cecil Quirino's Sailing the Sulu Seas they have a Moro do some moves in traditional silat and kuntaw. Very different than most FMA, though there are similarities.

TheMorningStar
07-23-2001, 11:32 PM
thanks guys, i really appreciate your feedback on this topic... i guess i just put that out there due to the extensive insistent usage of some fma practicioners for moro blades when their very systems were geared toward bolos and the like. i guess it also has to do w/ my feelings towards those few that take advantage of the pilipino culture and it's weaponry for granted, never fully understanding the gravity of the weapon's place in history and in my heart...

Bukidnon
07-24-2001, 12:01 PM
I would have to disagree with Bayani and federico. There are non-moro swords in the RP. The pinuti and talibon are combat weapons, not field blades. The lumad (non-muslim tribes of Mindinao bukidnon, manobo, t'boli etc.) have there own swords. Bolo is generic term for blade although it does generally refer to a utlitiy blade. But if you were to show a Barong to Pinoy they would probably call it a bolo.

This kris and kampilan were not strictly used buy the Moro either. There use was common in the Visayas in pre-hispanic Philippines. Only with the arrival of the Spanish did its use decline.

Why the use of Moro blades in modern FMA ? Romantacism(sp?). If you use a moro blade this somehow connects you to the fact that the moros were never conquered. Its the same reason some systems try to draw a connection to silat. That is that systems that are connected to silat are older and therefore more "authentic".

But I think the most significant reason for the use of moro swords in modern FMA it that they look really cool. Which I see nothing wrong with that.

Regards,

V

Federico
07-24-2001, 02:17 PM
Bukidnon hello. While I wont argue with you that the non-muslim tribes of Mindanao had their own swords I would have to say for many they still fall under the term Moro. In saying this I would have to say look under who made the term Moro in the first place, The Spanish. It was a generic term that they applied to most people of the Southern Philippines not just the Muslims. It is also a very very perjurative word, and I dislike using it but unfortunately it is so widespread it is too difficult to speak of these peoples without using the term. Anyways the yakan (questionably muslim) and bagabo have had strong ties with the sultanates, so easily would be viewed by outsiders as Moros.

As for the use of the kris and kampilan during pre-hispanic PI that would delve into the original spread of mohomedism and also the common cultural traits possessed by most Filipinos. So the abandoning of these cultural artifacts would be a key signifier when considering the denotation of usage. There is also some disagreement over the use of the word kampilan whe used in reference to Northern Filipinos. It is possible that though the name was used it was for a different blade.

Bukidnon
07-25-2001, 12:57 PM
I guess the term moro depends on were you come from. The tribes of Mindanao are generally refered to by the christians of Mindanao as belonging to two groups Moro or Manonbo ( muslim or pagan). The spanish also refered to them in this way. The Manobo are actually a specfic group, but the term is used generally to refer to all pagan tribes by christians in Mindanao.

The term used by the native pagan peoples is 'Lumad'.

We should do our best in forums such as this one to educate. Thus my distingishing of the two. Just because others are ignorant we should not incourage this ignorance.

I still stand by my statement that there are as bayani out it "true non-moro swords" both inregards to the lumad and now predominatly christain population. Its all in the way we use the term bolo and moro. Can a sword be a bolo? yes. Are all bolos swords? no.

Regards

Vince

bayani
07-25-2001, 01:47 PM
Hey, Bukidnon...just wanna say thanks for the heads up on the term for the non-Muslim pagan tribes of the Southern P.I....and, yes I KNOW that this is kinda outside the scope of the original topic, but (and this question is directed to Bukidnon, Federico, and anybody else that cares to jump in) just WHAT (and HOW) do they worship? I've heard variously that they are "animists", worshipping nature and the like--but is it the old "Bathala" religion ("Bathala" being a name used for God by the ancient Pinoy, FYI) or what? Coz, frankly I don't know...How does their worship impact upon/reflect their warrior culture (if at all)? The Muslims of the Southlands have "parang sabbil/juramentado", that I know...and the Christian Eskrimadors often retain many practices/beliefs that go back to the "old ways" (anting-anting, etc.)...does the pagan religion(s) date back to the pre-Muslim times (Shri Vijaya, as opposed to Majapahit--which was staunchly Muslim), etc? Any info on this would be most appreciated, coz I really don't know all that much on the topic, and I'm finding this all quite fascinating...

Good thread so far, till later, be safe and joyful...

~bayani~

Bukidnon
07-26-2001, 09:57 AM
Bayani,

There are many groups. Off the the top of my head bukidnon, manobo, western manobo, matigsalug, bagobo, hinuguan(sp?), t'boli, tagoloan . This is only a few examples. I don't know what there individual practices are, but for the most part they are animist. I don't think it is same as the "Bathala" religion which was a specfic belief system, I believe of the Tagalogs. I witnessed a Bukidnon tribe cermoney in bukidnon province back in 97. Were there was ritual sacrafice of pigs and chickens. I do not really know that much about the other groups. I honestly don't know how religion affects there warrior culture.

This does date back before the arrival of islam. The Bukidnon,Tagoloan and Hinuguan (basically the same group) maybe a glimps of what the ancient visayans were like because there oral tradition is that they came from the sea and coast. They went inland to escape islam. The city of Cagayan de Oro takes its name for a bukidnon word (if I remember correctly 'Kagayyan') "Place of Shame", were they lost a battle against the Maranao.

What I can tell you about there warrior art is that it is the spear (not the sword) which plays the more important role in combat and ceremony. This is similar to the ancient visayans according to the great pre-historian on the Philippines W.H. Scott.

If you are interested in more email me privately.

BTW: Bayani, we have met. J. Jacobo introduced us at Bakbakan's Masters of the Blade.

Regards,

Vince
[email protected]

vBulletin v3.0.3, Copyright ©2000-2004, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

 

[Cruentus]

Notice the overlap? Clip Points can also be used as utility/camp knives and Drop points can also be used as fighters.

There is definatily an overlap.

My point isn't relating to what the blade COULD be used for...it is why was it designed or developed that way.

The earliest evidence that I have found (if you find something different, please let me know) of the "Clip point" is with the European sabers. A clip point is where the back edge of the tip is concave, creating a point that can stab with both a forward or backward cut. This clearly acts as an aid for fighting, rather then anything else. Now...I have kitchen knives with clip points, but that is besides the point. The point is, where'd it come from and why was it designed that way.

Examples of points:

Clip point on the SOG Bowie: http://www.knifeoutlet.com/catalog/SOG_Knives/SOG2.htm

Drop point on the microtech "dropoint":
http://www.innerpointcutlery.com/display_item.php?id=107&PHPSESSID=6d8b3f606ec5c38cd4ebc121100346fa

If you compare the Presas Bolo, and the WWII Bolo with Dieters agricultural Bolo, you'll see the very slight difference. The agricultural one is a drop point, although barely. The WWII bolo is barely a clip point, where the clip starts about half way down the blade.

I guess you kind of have to be a knife enthusiest to notice the difference. However, you will gather a much more noticable difference if you actually do target cutting with both tools for comparison.

Regardless...enthusiest or not, most of this stuff is conjecture, as historical references on this subject is difficult to find. And, I think I should note here, that "Martial Arts Masters" and "Historians" are not the same thing. I put more credit on what historians and archeologists and anthropologists say then what someones "master" says, unless we are talking about a primary source.

PAUL

 

[Cruentus]

Hi,

have a look at this link here.

Then scroll down to the middle, Plat 12

There they have a variety of bolos, all different shapes.

Regards


Dieter

Awesome link. I wish there was a way to tell how far back those designs go.

 

[Black Grass]

but I find it difficult to get history on these...especially exact dates. I was wondering if you had any good resources for me.

Yes, resources are hard to come by. The few that i have found you have already cited in this or other threads. If I do find any others i'll be sure to post them.

Here is a script from people discussing Bolos vs Moro type blades in the FMA...
BladeForums.com: The Leading Edge of Knife Discussion > Tactics & Training > Filipino Combat Arts Forum > sword preferences...

Ha thats some stuff i wrote 3 yrs ago come back to haunt me. glad i didn;t put any BS there.

Vince
aka Black Grass

 

[loki09789]

I'm a bit confused. isn't a drop point considered to be stronger than a clip point? Could the drop point design be almost a compromise? Adding the thrusting ability to the bolo while still maintaining chopping ability?

The heavier tip would make more effective chopping strikes because of the tip weight. The clip point is not as effective as a drop/tapered point because of simple mechanics.

As far as chopping, consider that the longer the ax handle the more penetrating/forceful the cut can be/theoretically of course.

 

[Cruentus]

this pertains to what we're talking about...

http://cssdsc.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=592

 

[loki09789]

As interesting as this type of intrastyle/historical discourse may be, isn't the ultimate purpose and goal of a 'conceptual art' how well the current players can translate, adapt, adopt and apply the conceptual understanding in an artistic and tactical ways?

Isn't the 'journey' the important thing? I think Bram's DVD reviews would indicate that he has done some honor to the past by applying his conceptual mastery, research and hard work to a chosen topic of artistic/stylistic research and 'made it his own.'

Others have also chosen to organize, instruct or publish by synthesizing what RP/direct instructors have taught them, instructors from other arts possibly and their own investigations and research.

 

[Dan Anderson]

1. Isn't the 'journey' the important thing? I think Bram's DVD reviews would indicate that he has done some honor to the past by applying his conceptual mastery, research and hard work to a chosen topic of artistic/stylistic research and 'made it his own.'

2. Others have also chosen to organize, instruct or publish by synthesizing what RP/direct instructors have taught them, instructors from other arts possibly and their own investigations and research.

1. Absolutely.

2. Are you obliquely pointing a finger at me? If not, I'll do it. And shame on you for not pointing a finger at me. I'd horsewhip you if I had a horse. :roflmao:

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS :whip: I like this one.
PPS I stole the last line from Grouch Marx.

 

[OULobo]

Isn't the RP family design also known as a Negrito Bolo?

I have always heard the "RP family design" call the Negrito and what Deiter gave as examples from D. Canete as the Bonafacio or Bowie.

Negrito from the tribe / area and Bonafacio after the PI hero that supposedly carried the same design.

 

[arnisandyz]

I have always heard the "RP family design" call the Negrito and what Deiter gave as examples from D. Canete as the Bonafacio or Bowie.

Negrito from the tribe / area and Bonafacio after the PI hero that supposedly carried the same design.

I've also heard the Bonifacio design called the Katipunan design.

 

[OULobo]

As I also mentioned... there probably aren't linguistic differences between the two. It would make more sense that the tools would be linguistically seperated by purpose (Tusok or tabak) rather then "fighting" or "not fighting."

And, thinking of the different PI blades you mentioned...

Kampilan: Resembles the arabic scimitar. THis would make sense, as it was donned by seafaring Moro's.
Barong: Doesn't resemble anything I could find in history...design seems completely native to the PI/islander peoples.
Pinuti: Isn't this basically a Bolo, but Visiyan? Interestingly the one they sell at Kris cutlery is a "1800's design" and resemblesa fighting bolo.
Gununting: Hmmm...resembles some arabic blades as well, but not sure.

The reason I am thinking of these, is because you mention that they predate the bolo, and were used as fighting tools. I am not in disagreement with you (except I thought pinuti was just a visiyan bolo), but I find it difficult to get history on these...especially exact dates. I was wondering if you had any good resources for me.

PAUL

The kampilan is actually most likely gleaned from the mandaus of the Dayak tribes in Borneo, from which the kampilan gets both it's decorative hilt and its straight flat chopper like blade shape.

The barong in myopinionis indeed truly unique to the PIs.

The pinuti is likely based of the spanish swords of the day in it's slender profile and clip point.

The gununting traces to the tenegre or "monster hilt" bolos of the visayans. I would venture to the agricultural choppers of various design from there.

Another design that relates to the flat or rounded tiped weapons that are indeed fighters are the Indo. klawang.

 

[arnisandyz]

The kampilan is actually most likely gleaned from the mandaus of the Dayak tribes in Borneo, from which the kampilan gets both it's decorative hilt and its straight flat chopper like blade shape.

The barong in myopinionis indeed truly unique to the PIs.

The pinuti is likely based of the spanish swords of the day in it's slender profile and clip point.

The gununting traces to the tenegre or "monster hilt" bolos of the visayans. I would venture to the agricultural choppers of various design from there.

Another design that relates to the flat or rounded tiped weapons that are indeed fighters are the Indo. klawang.

How about the golok? I think variations found its way into the PI through Indonesia, they pretty much serve the same purpose as the bolo.

 

[OULobo]

I've also heard the Bonifacio design called the Katipunan design.

That would make sense considering, if I have my PI history right, he was a Katipunan.

 

[OULobo]

How about the golok? I think variations found its way into the PI through Indonesia, they pretty much serve the same purpose as the bolo.

I have always seen the term golok and bolo as terms for machetes with a local flare. I don't really think there is a definite shape or example of either. I would even go so far as to say the same thing about the term parang with the differance between aa parang and a golok being that the parang seems to be reserved for the longer machetes and swords and golok reserved for the shorter.

 

[Cruentus]

I'm going to sort of steer things back on track here...

There are a lot of Filipino and Indonesian blades out there with different histories behind them. However, the main questions and answers are...

#1. Is it possible that some Bolo's were designed more for combat, and that others were designed more for agricultural use?

Naw...not possible at all. And if you believe that then I have a left handed hammer to sell you to screw in that phillips head screw... . The fact is that mankind tailors tools to fit the needs of the job, and to make jobs easier. If we tailor knives today for combat rather then simple utility, then why would it be so far fetched to believe that the Filipino's would do the same? Furthermore, simple physics and a little understanding of history will tell you that a top heavy blade with a rounded, or less drastic point is more suited for swinging and hacking...ie. cutting folige or crops. A little history and physics will also tell you that a clip point was less effecient for daily work because you had more risk of breaking the tip then with the other points, but the clip point (which traces back to the spanish saber) is specifically designed for combat (opening a wound, stabbing, and reverse or back cut specifically). However, to realize things from a historical perspective may require a trip to the library, and may require (gasp) a little research. I know, I know...what fun is that.

#2. What about now a days? Now a days, you can find kitchen knives with clip points. Now a days, your utility knives can have Tanto tips. Heck...now a days I realize that paste has more uses beyond being a tasty, pre-school snack. None of this matters...what we are talking about is what was the original purpose of the design was for, and the history behind it. If you know a little something about blade design, when you simply look at the design of the WWII bolo's and the Presas bolo's, the message of "what's this for" is fairly easy to decifer, especially when compared to other blades.

#3. What about a Filipino/Spanish connection? Hmmm....lets see. Origin of the clip point: European/Spanish Sabers. Spain....occupied PI for a few hundreed years, starting in the 1500's. Historical comparison: Bowie knife w/ clip point was designed from Spanish Sabers. Also, Bowie's resemble many "fighting" Bolo's (by design, a Bolo can be thought of as longer, more slender Bowie, when you really compare the 2), and in fact some of the more drastic clip points have been termed "bowie tipped" bolo's.

Now, based on this basic information, can one make the crazy conjecture that Spain MAY have influenced the Filipino Blade design? And if that part is true, then MIGHT have Spain also influenced some of the fighting techniques and methods regarding the tool?

I know, I know...real far fetched isn't it. However, when you make that trip to the library to check on the other stuff, you might wanna check on this one as well. YOu might find that the answer to this is most likely a "yes" then a "no."

In the mean time, I'll be practicing my #5 and my #12 blocks...


Anyways....

The above 3 are the main theories that I had in mind in this discussion. So far on this thread I haven't run into a strong arguement against any of the above 3.

:asian:
PAUL

 

[arnisandyz]

#1. Is it possible that some Bolo's were designed more for combat, and that others were designed more for agricultural use?

YES! as you mentioned, evolution of tools. a sawed-off shotgun that was originally made for hunting birds becomes a formidable weapon.

#3. What about a Filipino/Spanish connection? Spain MAY have influenced the Filipino Blade design? And if that part is true, then MIGHT have Spain also influenced some of the fighting techniques and methods regarding the tool?

YES! I myself am a product of Spanish influence in the Philippines. The Spanish occupation influenced the people, food, language, arts and overall culture.

I know, I know...real far fetched isn't it....I haven't run into a strong arguement against any of the above 3.

Why do you think we think it is far fetched? You haven't run inot a strong arument against because what you stated is a fairly obvious assumption. The replys that I and others were giving wasn't to prove your statements wrong, only to add to the discussion.

Peace,

andy

 

[arnisandyz]

The post I made earlier about a tabak bolo for chopping vs a tusok bolo for killing pigs, etc.

Would it not also be an assumtion that these tools already existed for performing various tasks and when the time came for someone to choose a tool for combat they picked the one that was better at killing? I'm not trying to prove you wrong, only stating that we really don't know what came first, the tool or the designer.

It would also be naive to believe that the clip point ONLY existed in combat application as applied to the bolo. Even considering that the clip point IS a combat design, with the Philippines history of warefare with itself and other cultures (including Spain), and if you see the vast array of wild blade shapes both for war and agriculture, could the clip point have been used even by coincidence or accident before the bolo was ever used for war? again, not to prove you wrong, but just another assumtion.

So in the end, my assumtions are just as valid as yours and just as difficult to be proven wrong. WHO KNOWS?

 

[Flatlander]

My thought here is, given that many people in th Phillipines exist in poverty, and have for awhile, it seems likely that some may have required an "every purpose" bolo. Would numbers #4 and #2 from plate 12 of Datu Deiter's link fit this possibility?

 

[Cruentus]

[B
Why do you think we think it is far fetched? You haven't run inot a strong arument against because what you stated is a fairly obvious assumption. The replys that I and others were giving wasn't to prove your statements wrong, only to add to the discussion.

Oh...no, I don't REALLY think that it is far fetched at all, I was just letting my natural sarcasm get the better of me! :uhyeah:

For some reasons that I have yet to figure out, Bram Frank seems to be taking heat by making the distinction between "fighting" and "agricultural" bolo. I am not a Bram Frank student (although I can say I like his work), but I have done a little bit of my own independent research prior to his Bolo DVD release and commentary, and I can say at least on this point (and really, the 3 points above) that this is true.

Yet, some want to argue with me, without bringing any real evidence to the table of course. So, some of my sarcasm is run-off from other threads/forums/discussions. I apologize for it...as I hope that you don't take it the wrong way. Most of you here HAVE been good contributors to the discussion here! :asian:

:ultracool

 

[loki09789]

Check out the Rick Mitchell article on the "INteresting Topic" discussion.