Is the wing chun punch real?

[Kung Fu Wang]

The problem is a WC punch does not look powerful,...

Do you have any clip that someone uses WC punch to hit into the thin air or to hit on a heavy bag?

Every time when people discuss about "power generation", I always suggest to put up such clip. IMO, clip is better than 1000 words.

 

[KPM]

if there was a punch to develop a deadly punch without relying on muscles it would be really cool but i'm sceptical
somehow. i mean how are you supposed to punch hard without depending on the strength of your muscles? then
this would basically mean that a 12 year old girl could punch just as hard as a grown man if she uses the wing chun
punch.

Yes, physics is complicated....actually we're talking about biomechanics if you are applying physics to a punch. But the simple formula of F = M * A is useful because it helps us conceptualize what is going on. If you what to hit hard, two basic things are needed. Good mass, or good acceleration. It just goes without saying that a big guy is going to hit pretty hard! If you are a small person without much mass, then you are going to have to work harder to generate good power in a punch. The second element is acceleration or simple speed. So learning good technique that allows you to move your fist through the air as quickly as possible is going to add to the power you can generate. Of course, the physics and math get more complicated than that if you really want to analyze it. But most people aren't interested in analyzing it any deeper than this.

You cannot move the body without muscles. The challenge is to use those muscles in the most optimal way. If you are using a lot of excess tension you aren't using optimal biomechanics. This would be like trying to drive your car with one foot on the brakes. It holds you back. If you are using poor alignment and poor punching mechanics, this also affects the speed or acceleration of your punch. This is like trying to drive your car straight with the tires out of alignment and pulling to one side. So technique is important.

But different fighting systems use a different technique to do a punch. We could argue until the cows come home as to which system has the best punching method. But they all produce results within their way of doing things. There is no "magic punch."

The difference between a long range punch and a short range punch is a whole other discussion.

 

[kehcorpz]

If you punch and the enemy is very close to you does this mean the punch has less power cause the arm has less distance to travel and accelerate?
I watched a video of a wing chun teacher who said that when he punches he imagines his arm to be like a bullet and it doesn't matter how
close the enemy is. Does this mean he's wrong?

What's most interesting about the wc punch is this penetration stuff. But this can't be trained on your own right? I mean wether it works or not can
only be tested if you have somebody else to punch.

I also wonder can you use the wc punch with self defense items made for punching which have a small tip and focus all the power on a very small point? Did anyone test this?

 

[geezer]

If you punch and the enemy is very close to you does this mean the punch has less power cause the arm has less distance to travel and accelerate?
I watched a video of a wing chun teacher who said that when he punches he imagines his arm to be like a bullet and it doesn't matter how
close the enemy is. Does this mean he's wrong?

What's most interesting about the wc punch is this penetration stuff. But this can't be trained on your own right? I mean wether it works or not can
only be tested if you have somebody else to punch.

I also wonder can you use the wc punch with self defense items made for punching which have a small tip and focus all the power on a very small point? Did anyone test this?

Here's the answer to your questions:

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/60209978.jpg

Now, it's obvious WC/WT/VT interests you. So stop wasting time and get to a school. Commit to at least three months of instruction before asking any more questions like these. Otherwise you risk looking like an idiot. But do post to let us know how the training is going!

 

[kehcorpz]

Yes wc looks interesting but I'm really not sure if it would work for me and the prices are really high. The schools seem to make
a lot of money. If I could join and leave at any time I'd much more likely simply try it but where I live you have to join for 12 months!
The fact that they force you to join and pay for 12 months already shows that they are interested in making lots and lots of money..
I dont like that.
I also dont like doctors which do all kinds of expensive medical tests only to make much money.

 

[yak sao]

Yes wc looks interesting but I'm really not sure if it would work for me and the prices are really high. The schools seem to make
a lot of money. If I could join and leave at any time I'd much more likely simply try it but where I live you have to join for 12 months!
The fact that they force you to join and pay for 12 months already shows that they are interested in making lots and lots of money..
I dont like that.
I also dont like doctors which do all kinds of expensive medical tests only to make much money.

Martial arts has a very high dropout rate and wc is no exception.
many people quit before they give it a chance. By signing a contract not only are you committing to the school for 12 months but that school is committing to you for 12 months.

 

[Juany118]

Martial arts has a very high dropout rate and wc is no exception.
many people quit they give it a chance. By signing a contract not only are you committing to the school for 12 months but that school is committing to you for 12 months.

It depends on the rationale though. My Sifu/Guro owns his own Forensic Consulting firm that provides services to Corporate and LE organizations. The "School" is thus not a profit seeking venture. Obviously their are expenses but the left over money gets rolled into Charity Work like Wounded Veteran projects, LE Charities and Filipino Typhoon relief etc. As you said we do have a drop out rate similar to other Martial Arts schools but since profit isn't part of the equation he is easier going on the contract end.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Does anybody have "WC power generation" clip either punching into the thin air, or punching on a heavy bag?

Here are 2 "Baji power generation" clips. It's very easy to learn and everybody can pick it up within 10 minutes.

 

[Juany118]

Does anybody have "WC power generation" clip either punching into the thin air, or punching on a heavy bag?

Here are 2 "Baji power generation" clips. It's very easy to learn and everybody can pick it up within 10 minutes.

1:25 is a really interesting part, the difference between a "normal" and a "wing chun" punch in the next one

There is also also this episode of fight quest that goes into detail about everything. Not perfect mind you but a decent overview not only of the art but how there isn't really a single way to "Wing Chun tonight". I may have dated myself with that last joke lol.

 

[Callen]

That's a great clip of Sifu Lui Ming Fai. In my opinion, very good punching insight.

 

[Tez3]

The fact that they force you to join

Do they drag you in off the street and make you train holding you prisoner until you are ready for grading?
I'm betting they will let you have a trial lesson but don't be greedy and expect to have weeks of free training. Bear in mind that even non business martial arts places have expenses like rent and utilities to pay for. If there is a contract read it careful, they don't make you sign it, you decide whether to or not.

 

[Steve]

And this is kinda goes where I was going. No art has THE punch. They all work well, else why would people have practiced the art for hundreds of not thousands of years? The point is the boxer, the WC dude, the FMA guy, they all learn how to punch in a way that their predecessors proved was effective and HURT, otherwise it would have died our as it was ineffective.

I think in our "more civilized" world people forget these arts started as ways to REALLY fight, even kill, in real life. If you are not studying a "traditional" fighting art (FMA, WC, etc.) you are studying their child. Either way, if taken to the ultimate conclusion you are studying not to beat an opponent but to eliminate a threat to your life. They have all lasted, thus they all work.

This is one common line of reasoning. Another is that, in our "more civilized" world, the opportunity to apply technique is largely lost, and so arts that would otherwise have died out can perpetuate because they have a lot of fancy, pseudo-scientific rationale that sounds really, really cool. And because there is no application (and in fact,, the lack of application is part of the pseudo-scientific rationale), these styles can actually thrive while effective fighting styles fade significantly or die out because often what works isn't as sexy as something that is engineered to look cool.

Another line of reasoning is that, in our "more civilized" world, contemporary arts are better suited for a modern context, while the study of a "traditional" art is at least one or two (or more) generations from having anyone involved who has ever seen the art being used in context. I think of Scuttle, the seagull from Disney's the Little Mermaid, where he's just basically making stuff up about using a fork to comb your hair.

Once again, there is a lot of speculation, which it to be expected when you can't just simply demonstrate effectiveness, explaining how something works, and instead must explain how something could work or would work.

On a completely different note, there also seems to be a questionable premise that a WC strike is technical and grounded in sound science, while other strikes are not. Another questionable premise that seems to be underlying this conversation is that strength and technique are mutually exclusive. Isn't it possible that a striking technique can be a function of both strength and technique?

 

[JowGaWolf]

there isn't really a single way to "Wing Chun tonight". I may have dated myself with that last joke lol.

Yes you did. but only those around during that time know what you are talking about so it's more like, code words lol.

 

[Juany118]

This is one common line of reasoning.... ?

There is a reason for the conclusion I speak of. Many of the traditional Chinese Martial Arts (Wing Chun, Hung Gar, White Crane, etc) were developed hundreds of years ago and existed and spread, in a time where people fought challenge matches, sometimes even with signed death waivers. So they are solidly proven in terms of real world effectiveness of their punching techniques. No Martial art based only on "unproven" theory would survive in such an environment.

Also I never said that other arts punches aren't founded in science. What I said is they achieve the same goal via different methods. A simple difference in methodology does not by extension mean unscientific.

Some rely on using (for lack of a better term) body english (rotation and/or "snapping" at the waist) to align the mass behind a straight punch, WC simply uses body structure and elbow alignment along the centerline to achieve the same goal. The way it was described to me was "in Western Boxing you 'throw' your weight behind a punch, in WC you 'keep' your weight behind a punch."

Some arts in order to be able to launch a series of rapid attacks end up unconsciously needing more development of fast twitch muscle fibers so you can rapidly snap jabs back and forth from the shoulder. You may in boxing achieve this by constantly jabbing the heavy bag and working on timing with the speed bag. WC in order to accomplish the same uses a principle of relaxation at the point of impact, and rotating the fists one over the other to maintain the centerline. The idea being, and a biomechanical fact actually, that a relaxed muscle requires less energy to withdraw than one still in a state of opposing tension. You do this by punching a rice bag mounted on a wall repeatedly. The goal being that eventually even though your fist hits full force the first then automatically recoils (equal and opposite reaction) and the bag bounces due to the instant relaxation.

I am not saying WC has THE most power punch. Other punches can be more powerful, I won't deny that. It's why WC also puts a premium on the speed of repetitive attacks (see battering ram analogy). There is a reason tigers, bears and gorillas etc swing their arms in arcs, it's to rip the head off of what they are attacking. There are a couple of factors at play though with these more rounded attacks technique is equally important when you are throwing those wide punches muscle is a greater factor, because again instead of "keeping" your weight behind a punch you are "throwing" your weight behind it.

What WC is designed around is the following theory. Create an art that is specifically tailored around a smaller person so that they can fight a larger opponent. Rather than use techniques that require the parallel cultivation of muscle (more than a couple of traditional Chinese martial arts when taught in the traditional manner also had physical work out regimes along side them, such as what we now call "isometric" exercises such as holding buckets filled with stuff and/or VERY low static stances etc) for strength WC was designed around keeping the weight behind a strike for power, vs throwing, and then speed via straight-line punching and the use of relaxation so that one can accomplish the same goal.

Neither, is universally "better" than the other but WC still being around for ~300 years now and surviving in an environment where not only hand to hand combat was THE way of combat but where even in the rare time war was not happening you had challenge matches that could result in death, shows WC, and it's fellow traditional Chinese arts, are proven in terms of theory.

 

[Steve]

There is a reason for the conclusion I speak of. Many of the traditional Chinese Martial Arts (Wing Chun, Hung Gar, White Crane, etc) were developed hundreds of years ago and existed and spread, in a time where people fought challenge matches, sometimes even with signed death waivers. So they are solidly proven in terms of real world effectiveness of their punching techniques. No Martial art based only on "unproven" theory would survive in such an environment.

Also I never said that other arts punches aren't founded in science. What I said is they achieve the same goal via different methods. A simple difference in methodology does not by extension mean unscientific.

Some rely on using (for lack of a better term) body english (rotation and/or "snapping" at the waist) to align the mass behind a straight punch, WC simply uses body structure and elbow alignment along the centerline to achieve the same goal. The way it was described to me was "in Western Boxing you 'throw' your weight behind a punch, in WC you 'keep' your weight behind a punch."

Some arts in order to be able to launch a series of rapid attacks end up unconsciously needing more development of fast twitch muscle fibers so you can rapidly snap jabs back and forth from the shoulder. You may in boxing achieve this by constantly jabbing the heavy bag and working on timing with the speed bag. WC in order to accomplish the same uses a principle of relaxation at the point of impact, and rotating the fists one over the other to maintain the centerline. The idea being, and a biomechanical fact actually, that a relaxed muscle requires less energy to withdraw than one still in a state of opposing tension. You do this by punching a rice bag mounted on a wall repeatedly. The goal being that eventually even though your fist hits full force the first then automatically recoils (equal and opposite reaction) and the bag bounces due to the instant relaxation.

I am not saying WC has THE most power punch. Other punches can be more powerful, I won't deny that. It's why WC also puts a premium on the speed of repetitive attacks (see battering ram analogy). There is a reason tigers, bears and gorillas etc swing their arms in arcs, it's to rip the head off of what they are attacking. There are a couple of factors at play though with these more rounded attacks technique is equally important when you are throwing those wide punches muscle is a greater factor, because again instead of "keeping" your weight behind a punch you are "throwing" your weight behind it.

What WC is designed around is the following theory. Create an art that is specifically tailored around a smaller person so that they can fight a larger opponent. Rather than use techniques that require the parallel cultivation of muscle (more than a couple of traditional Chinese martial arts when taught in the traditional manner also had physical work out regimes along side them, such as what we now call "isometric" exercises such as holding buckets filled with stuff and/or VERY low static stances etc) for strength WC was designed around keeping the weight behind a strike for power, vs throwing, and then speed via straight-line punching and the use of relaxation so that one can accomplish the same goal.

Neither, is universally "better" than the other but WC still being around for ~300 years now and surviving in an environment where not only hand to hand combat was THE way of combat but where even in the rare time war was not happening you had challenge matches that could result in death, shows WC, and it's fellow traditional Chinese arts, are proven in terms of theory.

would you fly in a plane with a pilot who had never flown a plane, taught by a guy who had never flown a plane, but at a school founded buy pilots who flew planes in WWI?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I thought this discussion would have had 6 pages of WC anger by now.. lol. you guys are

Do you have any clip that someone uses WC punch to hit into the thin air or to hit on a heavy bag?

Every time when people discuss about "power generation", I always suggest to put up such clip. IMO, clip is better than 1000 words.

 

[geezer]

would you fly in a plane with a pilot who had never flown a plane, taught by a guy who had never flown a plane, but at a school founded buy pilots who flew planes in WWI?

No way in hell.

But I would fly in a plane that was an improvement on a plane designed a generation ago, whose design in turn evolved out of the best planes of a generation before that, etc. etc. all the way back to guys like Glen Curtiss and the Wright bothers.

So having a history can be a positive thing. So is evolution! ...Evolution demands that there be a big enough gene pool to have genetic variation and that there be evolutionary pressure for natural selection to occur.

WC purists seem to think they are exempt from this process. They are more like biblical creationists, looking for some pure, original form, like Adam before the fall. The perfect, God-created version from whom we, the imperfect humans of today have descended.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do you have any clip that someone uses WC punch to hit into the thin air or to hit on a heavy bag?

Every time when people discuss about "power generation", I always suggest to put up such clip. IMO, clip is better than 1000 words.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do you have any clip that someone uses WC punch to hit into the thin air or to hit on a heavy bag?

Every time when people discuss about "power generation", I always suggest to put up such clip. IMO, clip is better than 1000 words.

The one thing I noticed in many of these videos is that many of the practitioners had gloves on. Then it occurred to me that many WC practitioners probably scrape their knuckles when doing that circular motion. I can only assume that the WC punch is supposed to be straight in and straight back. Am I wrong?

 

[Juany118]

would you fly in a plane with a pilot who had never flown a plane, taught by a guy who had never flown a plane, but at a school founded buy pilots who flew planes in WWI?

First, you just moved a goal post. Initially you said...

. Another is that, in our "more civilized" world, the opportunity to apply technique is largely lost, and so arts that would otherwise have died out can perpetuate because they have a lot of fancy, pseudo-scientific rationale that sounds really, really cool.

So I answered this. WC was perpetuated up into the 20th century through war and challenge matches. The teachers in Hong Kong in the post WWII period were trained during this earlier period and their students even used it in fights in the chaos of the Communist take over of he main land. So it is proven to be based on sound scientific (both in physics and biomechanically) and functional.

So you move the goal post and go to the modern teacher and whether they can, in essence, teach a fighting art if they don't fight. Well first I would hazard that 95% of all martial arts instructors have not used their Martial arts, outside of sanctioned competition

That said my Sifu's Sifu learned from one of these Hong Kong guys who put it into practice in street fights. Then, perhaps I am lucky in this respect, my Sifu used it in practice as a Law Enforcement Operator, whether it be serving High Risk Search Warrants for illegal drugs or arresting Outlaw Motorcycle Gang members in raids on the bars and club houses they frequent. I am also used its techniques, and the Kali he also teaches, in the course of my duties as well.

Additionally GM William Cheung worked with the Sailors and Marines of the 7th fleet in the 70's and 80's as well as teaching the Australian Royal Airforce (Cheung lives is Austrailia). A friend of mine who was a Force Recon Marine was taught it in the 90s, and well as Kali, by James Keating. While Paul Vunak, pissed of the Navy via advertisements that he was THE trainer for the Navy SEALS (resulting in his contract not being renewed), he was hired under government contract to teach Wing Chun to East Coast SEAL Teams in the 70s and 80s. In Germany a number of SWAT Teams study it under the Leung variation that is now under Keith Kernspecht in Germany.

Now would all of these Military and Security Forces, and more, study an art that just looks cool and is all theory and "pseudoscience"? No they wouldn't. I think you may be thinking WC is static. It's not. It is a conceptive MA based on a foundation of principles (centerline theory, body structure etc). Some things in it work really well and remain relatively unchanged, the punch as an example, however other things change. Some focus almost exclusively on punching, the WC I study also has a focus on take downs and Chin Na. Some will never kick above the waist, others will kick above the waist.

I also think your aircraft analogy is a false one to an extent. Aviation is technology based. You will get more power and efficient propulsion systems, stronger airframes, better and more complex avionics etc. Human biomechanics haven't changed since homosapiens came to be. Someone may say they have created a better combination of techniques in a MA they perpetuate but the way the human body moves in and of itself doesn't advance the way technology does. So a punch that worked 100 years ago will still work today. A block or deflection that worked against a round house then will still stop a round house today.