Is it a bad idea to teach kids wrist grab escapes?

[wab25]

i cant belive we are having a serious conversation were we are defeated by a 5 year old!

Hey... sometimes its just fun to argue.

 

[Dirty Dog]

@skribs, if you can teach a 5 year old to break my wrist grab, I'd like to see it.
It might also be good to narrow your question. A 17 year old is still a kid. There are plenty of people in their 20's who are still kids.

 

[JowGaWolf]

i cant belive we are having a serious conversation were we are defeated by a 5 year old!

a lot more than 50lbs i would have thought, but even if i couldnt hold the weight, he is now on the floor with my hand around his wrist, he still isnt free and there is no reason why you cant use the other hand as well

Most children escape from wrist grabs because they escape during the grab attempt. Once the grab is set, it's game over. Some will eventually try to bite in order to make the hand release the grip.

Once a grab is locked in, then it becomes an issue of grip strength, grip endurance, and control. I'm with you on this one. I'm not seeing a 5 year old breaking a grip. They avoid grips but that's about it.

 

[skribs]

@skribs, if you can teach a 5 year old to break my wrist grab, I'd like to see it.

Do you mean your standard grip when you're just trying to hold onto them with an appropriate amount of pressure, or your grip when you're pressure-testing this idea?

Sometimes I feel like pressure testing is like designing a plane.
Evaluator: "This hull failed at speeds of 600 MPH. Therefore it is a bad design."
Designer: "Yes, but the specified engine only goes up to 160."

 

[skribs]

It might also be good to narrow your question. A 17 year old is still a kid. There are plenty of people in their 20's who are still kids.

It should be clear from the context that it means kids who still need to be physically controlled for their own safety. For some kids, this is 4 or 5 years old. For others it might be a lot older, depending on maturity issues or developmental disorders.

 

[dvcochran]

As many of you may know, I train Taekwondo and Hapkido. Most of our Hapkido training is wristlocks. However, at my old Taekwondo school, we trained wrist grab escapes. Instead of difficult joint locks to gain control of the other person, we learned simple techniques to break the grip of our opponent/assailant.

We don't do Hapkido techniques for the kids at our school. However, every once in a while if we have some spare time, I'll do the wrist escapes. In the all-levels class, quite often I run out of stuff to do with the white belts really quick, since there's not much to the white belt curriculum compared to higher belts. So I'll do wrist escapes.

One time, a parent said, "Great...now they know how to get away from me." I think it was tongue in cheek, but I'm starting to question that.

At the end of class, I'll usually guard the door and make sure none of the kids leave without their parents. I always ask the kid "where's your parent?" We have so many new students that it's hard for me to keep track of which kid goes with which parent. I always ask the kid, just as a precaution, to make sure they know the person picking them up.

Yesterday, there's a kid in the 4-5-year-old class, who is notorious for not paying attention. I had him stop to get some hand sanitizer on the way out. Then, I asked "where's your parents?" He didn't answer. He just bolted out the door. I lunged and grabbed his arm (pretty tight, but not tight enough to hurt him) and yanked him back inside. I scolded him for just running off and asked again where his parents are. He pointed to his dad, and left.

Normally I'm pretty lenient with the white belts, especially at that age range. But there's no way I was letting the kid bolt off until I was sure his Dad was out there. I didn't know if he was just going to run into the street! In this case, it was okay, because I caught him, and even if I hadn't, his Dad was there.

But it got me thinking about that time a while back. What if this kid knew the weakest point of my grip, and how to exploit that? I had a pretty strong grip, and he's pretty small. I hadn't taught him to escape a wrist grab yet. If I had, and he did manage to break free, and his Dad wasn't there...

I have to agree with Jobo that it is highly unlikely that a 4-5 year old can break an adults grip, especially when that is not what was on their mind. You erred on the side of safety. A good thing.
When we are teaching grips/breaks to small kids it is purely to learn structure. It is very difficult to teach the why/when to a young mind. And we stress this.
So I think there is nothing wrong with teaching them but it cannot be with the mindset of just filler work.

 

[wab25]

Do you mean your standard grip when you're just trying to hold onto them with an appropriate amount of pressure, or your grip when you're pressure-testing this idea?

Sometimes I feel like pressure testing is like designing a plane.
Evaluator: "This hull failed at speeds of 600 MPH. Therefore it is a bad design."
Designer: "Yes, but the specified engine only goes up to 160."

You are the one that brought up a parent grabbing a 4-5 year old child running into the street. An appropriate amount of pressure to stop a child from running into the street... is more than enough to prevent a 4-5 year old from breaking an adults grip.

If you do have some magic wrist escape, that a 4-5 year old can pull off on a parent trying to prevent them from running into the street... please share. I think we would all like to see this wrist escape. But, none of the wrist escapes I have seen, will work for 4-5 year old on their parent.

 

[skribs]

You are the one that brought up a parent grabbing a 4-5 year old child running into the street. An appropriate amount of pressure to stop a child from running into the street... is more than enough to prevent a 4-5 year old from breaking an adults grip.

The amount of pressure that's appropriate for that situation varies from child to child. That metric changes when you introduce new skills to the child.

 

[paitingman]

Just grab 5 year olds by the dobok lol

I think it's a great thing to teach them to fill up time with a limited white belt curriculum.
Maybe just finding alternative drills and techniques is just the safer, easy option.
Even well trained, I don't see such a young kid being able to pull it off against an adult if they needed to, so maybe it's not worth teaching.
But then again, maybe they could use it against bigger or older children and save themselves some distress..

 

[Dirty Dog]

Do you mean your standard grip when you're just trying to hold onto them with an appropriate amount of pressure, or your grip when you're pressure-testing this idea?

Sometimes I feel like pressure testing is like designing a plane.
Evaluator: "This hull failed at speeds of 600 MPH. Therefore it is a bad design."
Designer: "Yes, but the specified engine only goes up to 160."

My grip with pretty much any qualifier you want to add, other than grabbing them with all the bones in my hand pre-broken.
Between us, Mrs Dog and I have ten kids. And twelve grandkids. Thirteen and fourteen are on their way (I've given up on names, they just get numbers now...). I feel confident that I've pressure tested holding onto a kid adequately.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It should be clear from the context that it means kids who still need to be physically controlled for their own safety. For some kids, this is 4 or 5 years old. For others it might be a lot older, depending on maturity issues or developmental disorders.

I physically control kids for their own safety alllllll the time. Some of these kids are teens. Some are a fair bit older. That's why I suggested you might clarify your question.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My grip with pretty much any qualifier you want to add, other than grabbing them with all the bones in my hand pre-broken.
Between us, Mrs Dog and I have ten kids. And twelve grandkids. Thirteen and fourteen are on their way (I've given up on names, they just get numbers now...). I feel confident that I've pressure tested holding onto a kid adequately.

I read this and thought about my son, about kids I was responsible for at work, and I don't remember having to hurry up and grab any of them. In my experience it's always good to set expectations of a children and hold them to it.

Even if kids were forgetful and over excited, I would remind them of that expectation before class ended. This way 2 things happens. 1. I know where that child is, and 2 That child knows what is expected because I'm usually repeating it to that child, even if they aren't breaking that expectation. Eventually it just becomes habit for me and the child.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I physically control kids for their own safety alllllll the time. Some of these kids are teens. Some are a fair bit older. That's why I suggested you might clarify your question.

If I taught a child how to escape from a wrist grab and the parent came to me and said, "great now I won't be able to grab them." I would just take that statement as a little bit of humor. I can't see a parent having difficulty and snatching up their child if need be. Thinking about my own childhood. My parents never had problems holding on to me when they were spanking me. I tried to run away from my mom once, and she told me that it will be worst if I ran, so I slow walked backed to her and took the beating lol. I can't remember what I did that got me in trouble. I just knew I wasn't going to run and make it worse lol.

 

[WaterGal]

I think it's fine to teach wrist escapes. Hopefully they can use them to escape from a bully.

However, they may be conceptually difficult for a kid who's young enough that "running out into traffic" is a usual concern.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I taught a child how to escape from a wrist grab and the parent came to me and said, "great now I won't be able to grab them." I would just take that statement as a little bit of humor.

A girl jointed in my class because her husband beat her up daily. 6 months later, she stopped taking my class, her husband signed up my class instead.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I girl jointed in my class because her husband beat her up daily. 6 months later, she stopped taking my class, her husband signed up my class instead.

Did you feel any moral dilemma teaching him? Or ask him why he wanted to train?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Did you feel any moral dilemma teaching him? Or ask him why he wanted to train?

She came to me and showed me the bruise marks on her legs. She told me that her husband beat her up daily.

To help the weak to fight against the strong is the CMA spirit "侠 Xia". The funny thing was people told me that she start to beat her husband up after that. Not sure if they are still together today or not.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

She came to me and showed me the bruise marks on her legs. She told me that her husband beat her up daily.

To help the weak to fight against the strong is the CMA spirit "侠 Xia". The funny thing was people told me that she start to beat her husband up daily. Not sure if they are still together today or not.

That didn't answer my question.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Did you feel any moral dilemma teaching him? Or ask him why he wanted to train?

Oh, you are talking about her husband.

Do I feel guilty if my student uses MA in self-defense? No! that's exactly what MA is used for.

In the beginning the girl may need to defend against her husband. Toward the end, the husband may need to defend against his wife. At least that couple could have a fair fight after my class.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Oh, you are talking about her husband.

Do I feel guilty if my student uses MA in self-defense? No! that's exactly what MA is used for.

In the beginning the girl may need to defend against her husband. Toward the end, the husband may need to defend against his wife. At least that couple could have a fair fight after my class.

Got a question for this, but going to turn it into it's own thread.