Saw my first real example of a TKD parent, and it wasn't pretty

[Dirty Dog]

Seriously?

Was this before or after they had started taking classes?

Both. More often it's before, because we're quite up front about how the program is run. But it happens later, too. I can think of one parent who was upset because their child wasn't being promoted. I pointed out that it was obvious that the child was not practicing at home, that they just sort of coasted along in class with minimal effort, that they missed as many classes as they attended, and that they didn't know the material for their rank.
Interestingly, about 18 months later the kid came back, but with their other parent (custody had apparently changed) and is doing just fine.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think there's basically two mindsets about testing, which I've seen in different styles/schools. One is that you should set students up for success by only letting them test when they've demonstrated that they're ready and otherwise making them wait until next time.

This is the approach we take. In cases like the OP mentioned, however, all it means is they're pissed because you won't let them test, instead of pissed because they failed.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Why? The child was mouthing off as well

The child probably learned it from the father. I doubt that kid will grow up to be well adjusted.
Edit: Bulka already beat me to this

 

[dvcochran]

Frankly, once that kid started yelling at the instructor for not getting a belt, I would have kicked him out of the school before his father pulled him out. That level of disrespect has no place in the training hall. Sadly though, I know a lot of instructors have to keep the lights on and put up with that nonsense.

Relson probably would have headbutted the dad and the kid.

If this was the first such incident with the kid then I would not punish him to the extreme of kicking him out for acting out what he apparently sees every day through his father. It is part of the burden of being a MA instructor who teaches kids. If he was a repeat offender it gets more complicated. But a good MA school can be a sanctuary for some kids. Remember it is a Art, not just Martial. Corny but true.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If this was the first such incident with the kid then I would not punish him to the extreme of kicking him out for acting out what he apparently sees every day through his father. It is part of the burden of being a MA instructor who teaches kids. If he was a repeat offender it gets more complicated. But a good MA school can be a sanctuary for some kids. Remember it is a Art, not just Martial. Corny but true.

What makes an MA school a place to teach/reform kids? Not arguing that happens, just curious the reasoning. When you learned your style, was part of the curriculum learning how to teach values to others, or how to instill good morals to children?

 

[dvcochran]

What makes an MA school a place to teach/reform kids? Not arguing that happens, just curious the reasoning. When you learned your style, was part of the curriculum learning how to teach values to others, or how to instill good morals to children?

Yes on both accounts.

 

[JR 137]

Why? The child was mouthing off as well

Yes, I know. But it's because of the way he was raised, by an A-hole to BE an A-hole. Poor kid had no chance.

Being a school teacher, there’s two sayings that I’ve found to be true so many times it’s not funny...

1. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. Not the most relevant in this discussion, but definitely relevant to anyone who teaches anything.

2. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. There may be an exception here and there, but I’d say it’s true 99% of the time. Certainly is here.

 

[JR 137]

What makes an MA school a place to teach/reform kids? Not arguing that happens, just curious the reasoning. When you learned your style, was part of the curriculum learning how to teach values to others, or how to instill good morals to children?

When I was doing my master’s in physical education, we called that the “hidden curriculum.” There’s far more things in the hidden curriculum, such as sportsmanship, waiting your turn, respecting the equipment, etc., but the above is a classic example of it.

Add to that: don’t the overwhelming majority of the schools that teach kids advertise self discipline, respect, etc.? Don’t hold it against them if they’re sticking to their claims. God knows how many schools don’t deliver on their advertised promises.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

When I was doing my master’s in physical education, we called that the “hidden curriculum.” There’s far more things in the hidden curriculum, such as sportsmanship, waiting your turn, respecting the equipment, etc., but the above is a classic example of it.

Add to that: don’t the overwhelming majority of the schools that teach kids advertise self discipline, respect, etc.? Don’t hold it against them if they’re sticking to their claims. God knows how many schools don’t deliver on their advertised promises.

Im not holding it against them, im just wondering where they get those skills. And @dvcochran , looking back at my post, it sounds a bit accusatory. It wasn't meant that way at all.
My first school, when I started going as a kid (4/5), they heavily taught all those values/morals, and when I was ready to listen, it helped me a lot. They even had a 15 minute session (each class? Once a week? I can't remember), where a specific instructor would go over self-discipline/respect/whatever specific value they were focusing on, and ask us to talk about ways that value has helped us. The part about it that intrigues me is that, in my school I saw those values being taught, but in other schools that I've been to since, including ones that state they teach those things, I don't see it taught, at least not overtly. And if it's not overtly taught, I always wonder how people feel they are qualified to teach it.

Regarding the hidden curriculum statement, i feel like if sportsmanship/respect/values are expected in a specific field, there should be at least one class devoted to it directly. It shouldn't be hidden, where people don't have to pick it up/learn it if they don't want to. I've seen my fair share of crummy collegiate coaches who never learned that part of the curriculum.

 

[drop bear]

What makes an MA school a place to teach/reform kids? Not arguing that happens, just curious the reasoning. When you learned your style, was part of the curriculum learning how to teach values to others, or how to instill good morals to children?

Yep. The focus of ours is to create better people.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yep. The focus of ours is to create better people.

Better in what way? More in line with your personal values, more law obeying? What is the definition of 'better' that people use for martial arts? /what do people mean when they say that a martial art can 'improve oneself'?

 

[mrt2]

I think there's basically two mindsets about testing, which I've seen in different styles/schools. One is that you should set students up for success by only letting them test when they've demonstrated that they're ready and otherwise making them wait until next time. That way, the test is really just testing that they can perform under pressure, and lets the students demonstrate what they've learned to themselves, their parents and the other students. The other mindset is that learning to accept failure is part of growth, so all students should test regularly and each time a bunch of them will fail and that's okay and part of the learning process. I think both approaches have some validity to them, but I think the latter risks making the students feel bad about themselves and want to quit if it's not handled right. Which, it sounds like, is what happened in this case.

Actually, I think my teacher's teaching philosophy is more the former than the latter. The problem is with a small minority of parents. The majority of parents love the school and the teacher and if he tells the students to work harder, practice more, or put in more time, the parents support that. And, the majority of adult students respect that as well.

That said, there is a minority of parents who push for their kids to test, and you can only hold them off so long. Especially among kids younger than 10, the degree of effort varies widely among students. None of them have much power, but some of them work very hard. Others, not so much. I can't blame the kids. I blame the parents who over program the kids with not just TKD, but other sports, musical instruments, and no doubt, many other after school activities. It is a lot to ask of a small child to balance multiple after school activities.

 

[mrt2]

Wow. I've never, in my life, seen someone do that in a TKD school. Argue with the teacher about whether a student passed or not? And at brown belt, when presumably they've been at your school for at least, what, 1.5-3 years? That sounds like your school may have a problem with getting the families to buy into the school culture.

No, the vast majority of our families love the school.

 

[mrt2]

Im commenting to specifically disagree with one thing you stated: a children's role to never interrupt a grown ups conversation.

I don't like that word never. In an emergency, they need to know they can speak up. I also disagree with the sentiment. It teaches kids they are inferior because of their age (unless you also had a rule that grown ups shouldnt interrupt a childs comversation, but them id imagine the rule would just be "never interrupt people"). I would agree that they should be polite about it, but they have every right to make their opinion heard, especially in a conversation about them, like this one (and i would bet if the kid was supporting his instructor and trying to calm his dad down, you wouldnt have brought up that idea at all).

It isn't my rule. It is my school rules. Just a little bit of old school Korean culture. For the most part, I don't pay the children's rules much attention because I am an adult, and my son doesn't practice TKD.

 

[mrt2]

This is the approach we take. In cases like the OP mentioned, however, all it means is they're pissed because you won't let them test, instead of pissed because they failed.

That is true. The parent might be thinking, my kid has been attending class for two years, and should be a black belt, rather than a brown belt. Why are you holding my kid back? You must be trying to soak us for more tuition money.

 

[mrt2]

When I was doing my master’s in physical education, we called that the “hidden curriculum.” There’s far more things in the hidden curriculum, such as sportsmanship, waiting your turn, respecting the equipment, etc., but the above is a classic example of it.

Add to that: don’t the overwhelming majority of the schools that teach kids advertise self discipline, respect, etc.? Don’t hold it against them if they’re sticking to their claims. God knows how many schools don’t deliver on their advertised promises.

Our school does take this seriously. Not to say there isn't time for joking around and games. Indeed, in the kid's classes, they usually finish class with some sort of MA themed game. But when it is time to do curriculum, things are absolutely serious, and if a student is goofing off during, say, forms, basics, or sparring, they get anything from a mild admonishment (usually) to push ups (usually just 5, which is really symbolic).

 

[JR 137]

Im not holding it against them, im just wondering where they get those skills. And @dvcochran , looking back at my post, it sounds a bit accusatory. It wasn't meant that way at all.
My first school, when I started going as a kid (4/5), they heavily taught all those values/morals, and when I was ready to listen, it helped me a lot. They even had a 15 minute session (each class? Once a week? I can't remember), where a specific instructor would go over self-discipline/respect/whatever specific value they were focusing on, and ask us to talk about ways that value has helped us. The part about it that intrigues me is that, in my school I saw those values being taught, but in other schools that I've been to since, including ones that state they teach those things, I don't see it taught, at least not overtly. And if it's not overtly taught, I always wonder how people feel they are qualified to teach it.

Regarding the hidden curriculum statement, i feel like if sportsmanship/respect/values are expected in a specific field, there should be at least one class devoted to it directly. It shouldn't be hidden, where people don't have to pick it up/learn it if they don't want to. I've seen my fair share of crummy collegiate coaches who never learned that part of the curriculum.

I think you’re taking “hidden” too literally. It’s “hidden” as in it’s a byproduct of the way class is taught and it’s not something you see directly in the curriculum nor most times in grading. But it’s definitely there and out in the open.

You generally don’t grade kids on saying they’re sorry when they knock someone over. It’s not in the formal curriculum either, but you teach it. You don’t grade kids on not destroying the equipment. It’s not formally in the curriculum, but you teach it. Common stuff like that. That’s what the hidden curriculum refers to. But some places do grade on that stuff in a roundabout way - conduct grade.

As for coaches not acting appropriately, same as other people in other fields. And as I said before, you can lead a horse to water, but you can make it drink

 

[jks9199]

What makes an MA school a place to teach/reform kids? Not arguing that happens, just curious the reasoning. When you learned your style, was part of the curriculum learning how to teach values to others, or how to instill good morals to children?

Because that's exactly how a lot of schools market themselves.

Personally, I don't like it. Yes, you can absolutely learn discipline, respect, etc. in a martial arts class. Or in a music class. On a wrestling mat, soccer pitch, or baseball diamond, or a scout troop/pack/unit. In all of these, learning discipline, respect, and the rest is a side effect of a solid program.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That is true. The parent might be thinking, my kid has been attending class for two years, and should be a black belt, rather than a brown belt. Why are you holding my kid back? You must be trying to soak us for more tuition money.

That's possible. I can even think of one parent who suggested that as the reason their child wasn't being promoted. My reply was that although the Y charges $40/month for the program, my annual salary is exactly $0.00, as is that of our Chief Instructor. We do charge a testing fee, so if we were trying to 'soak' someone, we'd be pushing them to test and letting them fail. Except that we use the funds from testing to pay for the belts we give out, and to offset the cost of things like mats, kicking targets, etc.
I think you're more likely to hear something like that at a commercial school.

 

[mrt2]

Because that's exactly how a lot of schools market themselves.

Personally, I don't like it. Yes, you can absolutely learn discipline, respect, etc. in a martial arts class. Or in a music class. On a wrestling mat, soccer pitch, or baseball diamond, or a scout troop/pack/unit. In all of these, learning discipline, respect, and the rest is a side effect of a solid program.

Don't you think these other programs make the same claims?

That said, I get your point. Too many martial arts schools promise all these benefits, but don't really explain how it will happen. And the truth is, it may happen, or it may not. It is more important the example the parents set at home. This is how I would put it, if I were writing promotional materials for a traditional martial arts school.

Martial Arts can be a hobby, a sport, and a way of life. Any reasonably healthy person can practice MA,, and regardless of whether you are small, big, fat, lean or something in between, anybody can benefit from MA. And because it is not a stick and ball team sport, everybody who shows up participates. No sitting on the bench. Also, unlike team sports, there is no off season in MA, allowing students to make a habit out of training year round.

MA allows students to practice combat safely, and through repetition, students learn both control over their movements, how to protect themselves, and how to control their natural fear of getting hit. Through this discipline, they become more self confident, and thus less likely to be picked on by bullies at school.

By emulating school rules regarding respect and self control, children will hopefully make a habit of these virtues, at home, at school, and in life.