Is Humility Necessary in Martial Arts?

[Jenna]

I think it is a stupid question to ask, yes? Of course humility is necessary in MA. Without humility we would feel an excessive conceit that would not be reined in until we suffered damage to our ego and perhaps more dangerously, to our very safety.

Humility is a virtue. I think true humility is a beautiful and powerful trait in all that have it.

Those who do not demonstrate humility on the other hand, we have trouble with in our teaching. When our student has no humility the lessons are lost on them and then we are talking into to a hollow head. They are vessels filled to give only a bad reflection upon us as teachers.

Yet I think there is perhaps another lesson?

In certain aspects of our martial art, humility is necessary. However, when an attitude of humility and deference is demanded through the environment and becomes assimiliated into the consciousness of the student then that is sometimes counterproductive and frequently contradictory in teaching fighting skills.

I would say that in a martial arts learning environment then humility is necessary. Any conceit in learning will lessen the lesson

I would say that in a martial arts fighting environment then conceit is necessary. Any humility in the fight will give your opponent advantage.

I would say that it is up to the teacher to teach this lesson. It is up to the student to adopt this teaching.

I would say to close that the humility we must demonstrate in learning should be commensurate with the significance (to us) of the teacher who is teaching and the lesson being taught. And but I would say conversely that for the ultimate adversary, then the ultimate conceit is mandated.

Perhaps I have not thought this through correctly. What is your opinion of this? I am grateful to receive your thoughts. Thank you.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In my case, humility comes with the territory. I only say I'm great at things I'm great at, and martial arts is a long way from being one of them.

 

[MA-Caver]

The deplorable lack of humility is one of the reasons why I dislike MMA fights and fighters. Which is why I don't think I'll ever consider MMA a serious Martial Art.

 

[clfsean]

It depends.

In CMAs, humility will get you beat about the head & neck area until you loose consciousness & possibly your life. The CMA's traditionally don't have a "-do" style outlook on MAs. The idea is to beat the opponent onto the ground & then finish. Preferrably, gutting them or running them through before the beating with hands became necessary. The majority of "accomplished martial artists" in fuedal China weren't nice people. They weren't "honorable". They were bandits or caravan guards or professional soliders. They had a singular job to do, humility be damned. I'm not talking about professional officers or guard shop owners, I mean the grunts out doing it.

As far as martial monks from Shaolin or Wudang... much like "the Church" in Western history, shelter was given to people who had been on the loosing side of power struggles, large or small. They took their skills with them & added to or refined existing skills in the temples. However, they still weren't nice people. They "learned" it in their new lives as they were.

The "honorable thief" or "knight errant" stories of chivalry in China is just that, stories. Sure there were always exceptions to the rule as with everything, but the wu xia stories are just that.

Humility from a CMA perspective is something that the upper class or scholarly class had time for. But when it came to day to day substance survival (middle class & below... gee, sounds familiar & current, doesn't it) or fighting & dying time, there's no room for that. Blink... you're dead. No room no time for that.

 

[Cyriacus]

Is it necessary?
Absolutely not.

If You can claim to be damn good at what Youre doing, and You can put out to prove it, You can damn well brag about it. So can the Gent who can pommel You.

My point is, Humility is a good thing. Or even just restraining Yourself from bragging and such.
Its not necessary, but its good.

 

[dancingalone]

I think it is a stupid question to ask, yes? Of course humility is necessary in MA. Without humility we would feel an excessive conceit that would not be reined in until we suffered damage to our ego and perhaps more dangerously, to our very safety.

Humility is a virtue. I think true humility is a beautiful and powerful trait in all that have it.

Those who do not demonstrate humility on the other hand, we have trouble with in our teaching. When our student has no humility the lessons are lost on them and then we are talking into to a hollow head. They are vessels filled to give only a bad reflection upon us as teachers.

Yet I think there is perhaps another lesson?

In certain aspects of our martial art, humility is necessary. However, when an attitude of humility and deference is demanded through the environment and becomes assimiliated into the consciousness of the student then that is sometimes counterproductive and frequently contradictory in teaching fighting skills.

I would say that in a martial arts learning environment then humility is necessary. Any conceit in learning will lessen the lesson

I would say that in a martial arts fighting environment then conceit is necessary. Any humility in the fight will give your opponent advantage.

I would say that it is up to the teacher to teach this lesson. It is up to the student to adopt this teaching.

I would say to close that the humility we must demonstrate in learning should be commensurate with the significance (to us) of the teacher who is teaching and the lesson being taught. And but I would say conversely that for the ultimate adversary, then the ultimate conceit is mandated.

Perhaps I have not thought this through correctly. What is your opinion of this? I am grateful to receive your thoughts. Thank you.

What a great post. In karate, I like to say to my brown belts it is their job to get good and arrogant. And then it is my job to deflate them sufficiently to where they can repeat the process again.

 

[Chris Parker]

I think it is a stupid question to ask, yes? Of course humility is necessary in MA. Without humility we would feel an excessive conceit that would not be reined in until we suffered damage to our ego and perhaps more dangerously, to our very safety.

Humility is a virtue. I think true humility is a beautiful and powerful trait in all that have it.

Those who do not demonstrate humility on the other hand, we have trouble with in our teaching. When our student has no humility the lessons are lost on them and then we are talking into to a hollow head. They are vessels filled to give only a bad reflection upon us as teachers.

Yet I think there is perhaps another lesson?

In certain aspects of our martial art, humility is necessary. However, when an attitude of humility and deference is demanded through the environment and becomes assimiliated into the consciousness of the student then that is sometimes counterproductive and frequently contradictory in teaching fighting skills.

I would say that in a martial arts learning environment then humility is necessary. Any conceit in learning will lessen the lesson

I would say that in a martial arts fighting environment then conceit is necessary. Any humility in the fight will give your opponent advantage.

I would say that it is up to the teacher to teach this lesson. It is up to the student to adopt this teaching.

I would say to close that the humility we must demonstrate in learning should be commensurate with the significance (to us) of the teacher who is teaching and the lesson being taught. And but I would say conversely that for the ultimate adversary, then the ultimate conceit is mandated.

Perhaps I have not thought this through correctly. What is your opinion of this? I am grateful to receive your thoughts. Thank you.

Ah, this could turn into a huge discussion on the importance and place of reiho in Japanese martial traditions, but I'll keep that back for the minute (unless someone else starts in on it...). To the point, though, humility can be a great boon, and a wonderful side effect of martial training, but it's not necessary. It can, however, make the martial training more enjoyable, and safer all round. Sadly, though, no, it's not necessary. Just desired. Musashi, for instance, has been described many ways, including that he became convinced he was unbeatable, and spent the rest of his time proving that... that's not exactly what I'd call a good example of humility, but a great example of a swordsman!

It depends.

In CMAs, humility will get you beat about the head & neck area until you loose consciousness & possibly your life. The CMA's traditionally don't have a "-do" style outlook on MAs. The idea is to beat the opponent onto the ground & then finish. Preferrably, gutting them or running them through before the beating with hands became necessary. The majority of "accomplished martial artists" in fuedal China weren't nice people. They weren't "honorable". They were bandits or caravan guards or professional soliders. They had a singular job to do, humility be damned. I'm not talking about professional officers or guard shop owners, I mean the grunts out doing it.

As far as martial monks from Shaolin or Wudang... much like "the Church" in Western history, shelter was given to people who had been on the loosing side of power struggles, large or small. They took their skills with them & added to or refined existing skills in the temples. However, they still weren't nice people. They "learned" it in their new lives as they were.

The "honorable thief" or "knight errant" stories of chivalry in China is just that, stories. Sure there were always exceptions to the rule as with everything, but the wu xia stories are just that.

Humility from a CMA perspective is something that the upper class or scholarly class had time for. But when it came to day to day substance survival (middle class & below... gee, sounds familiar & current, doesn't it) or fighting & dying time, there's no room for that. Blink... you're dead. No room no time for that.

Ha, just so you know, Sean, some "do" arts aren't very "do" in their outlook either! If you saw what pre-WWII Kendo was like, or saw what some of the Judo training can be like... not very "do" at all... ha!

 

[Steve]

My personal opinion is that there is a lot of false modesty, in general. We hear a lot about leaving ego at the door and being humble and all that, but it's mostly lip service. Not just in martial arts, but in all activities.

As far as I'm concerned, ego is what drives us to succeed. It's our desire to improve and become better. And when balanced by a realistic self-image, it's beneficial.

This is why I'm such a fan of sportive martial arts like MMA, Judo, BJJ and even TKD. Within the sports there are goals and there are measures. I know I can do X because I've done it. Unlike MA-Caver, I train with and know a lot of MMA fighters through BJJ and in general they are genuinely humble. I'd argue that this is for the reason above. They train with specific goals in mind and they test their progress often. To a person, good martial artists should be looking for holes and plugging them, and being humble is being willing to do this... to say, "Even though I've been training for X years, I'm pretty weak in this area. Even though I will be risking exposing a weakness in my game, I have to start working on it."

In BJJ, a fear of exposing a weakness is called camping in your A game.

Outside of an sport oriented martial art, pros like bouncers, bodyguards, or LEO also fall into the category of applying their skills for specific environments and marking their progress outside of the school environment.

Where humility goes out the door and ego becomes detached from reality is when there are no realistic measurements. In a school where you're being taught to become a well oiled machine of destruction or are learning the ultimate self-defense methodology, chances are you will never get a real test. You'll learn in a vacuum and have very little chance of finding an application for your "skills." And as a result, whatever feedback you receive from your instructor will be all you have.

I want to add that I also see two things that are often confused: inflated ego and swagger. When a person's self image is based upon questionable accomplishments and not on independent assessment, they can get a big head. These are the guys who think that they can do things that they really can't.

Swagger is prevalent in styles like BJJ, boxing, MMA and others. Swagger is confidence based on time. Real swagger, in my opinion, is based upon countless repetition. It's confidence that you can walk your talk because you know that what you're facing is something you've seen before. It's knowing that you're as prepared mentally and physically as you can be and you're ready to be tested. That's not ego.

In the context of this thread, "ego" is confidence that isn't justified.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

See, I've got a different take on it. I'm not afraid to suck at something. I'm not afraid to be really bad at it and let the world see. You've seen my videos of my kata and my sparring; it's not great, it's OK at best.

But the point for me is this. It's real. It's what is. And sucking at something is the first step towards not being a complete loser at it. I don't even worry about mastering it. Competence would be good as an initial goal. Is that humble? I don't know, I guess so. More importantly to me, it's real and I'm not ashamed of it. Perhaps you could say I'm arrogant about how much I suck at martial arts (for now). That does not mean I won't get better.

 

[Steve]

See, I've got a different take on it. I'm not afraid to suck at something. I'm not afraid to be really bad at it and let the world see. You've seen my videos of my kata and my sparring; it's not great, it's OK at best.

But the point for me is this. It's real. It's what is. And sucking at something is the first step towards not being a complete loser at it. I don't even worry about mastering it. Competence would be good as an initial goal. Is that humble? I don't know, I guess so. More importantly to me, it's real and I'm not ashamed of it. Perhaps you could say I'm arrogant about how much I suck at martial arts (for now). That does not mean I won't get better.

I would say that this post in combination with your first one represents the distinction between an overly inflated ego and swagger.

You only say that you're great at things you're really great at, and you know this because you're not afraid to put yourself out there. If everyone did this, a conversation about humility and ego wouldn't be necessary.

 

[clfsean]

Ha, just so you know, Sean, some "do" arts aren't very "do" in their outlook either! If you saw what pre-WWII Kendo was like, or saw what some of the Judo training can be like... not very "do" at all... ha!

Oh Chris I know... old footage of Ueshiba & aikido prove that. But you know what I'm saying. I'm speaking from a large brush stroke in my comment.

 

[Instructor]

I think equal parts humility and confidence and no cockyness or arrogance is a good mixture.

 

[decepticon]

I think it depends on your definition of humility. If it means being having a modest ego about one's importance, rank, self, etc. (dictionary.com), then no. I would greatly prefer to see MA students focus on reality rather than modesty. However if we are working off of a definition that focuses more on modest and respectful behavior(wikipedia), then I think humility is a very good thing to have in MA.

I have seen a situation where a student was very, very good, however students more senior to him kept busting his chops about humility in what I believe was an attempt to keep him from showing them up. If this kid had been allowed to recognize his real potential, I think he would have been a truly great practitioner. But the others used humility against him, often counseling him to not show up any of his superiors or cause them to lose face, telling him that showing faster learning, better flexibility and better cardio than anyone else in the class was offensive. So for three years this kid basically knuckled under the thumb of forced humility. He eventually drifted away and became an award winning soccer player. I wasn't surprised. He was a friend's son, so I didn't feel it my place to intervene. I'm not sure if the sensei knew what was going on, but when the mom tried to talk to him about it once, he told her that he had a traditional style school, that rank and humility were very important there, and disregarded her concern.

OTOH, there is a guy in my class now who surely could use a big dose of humility of the modest/respectful behavior kind. He is too rough on the younger/lesser trained people. He is causing trouble with the more advanced students by always taking sparring matches to the degree that either he will hurt someone or force them to hurt him to back him off. The instructor has spoken with him and currently there are some bad feelings. I don't know how this will play out. But I do know that if this guy can't "humble" himself, especially for the purpose of training, then he will probably leave or be asked to leave the school.

In an actual fight, I don't see that humility of either kind has much value. Who in their right mind would enter into a fight if they believed they were not worthy or possibly capable of winning it?

 

[Instructor]

In an actual fight, I don't see that humility of either kind has much value. Who in their right mind would enter into a fight if they believed they were not worthy or possibly capable of winning it?

Perhaps courtesy is a component of humility. Courtesy can often prevent the fight to begin with.

I define humility as a state of existence without ego.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Perhaps courtesy is a component of humility. Courtesy can often prevent the fight to begin with.

I define humility as a state of existence without ego.

That reminds me of a discussion we had here some time ago. Respect versus politeness. Some said they could not bring themselves to bow to someone they had no respect for, instructor or not. Some said they could bow to an instructor but only after he or she had proven they were worthy of such respect. My take on it was that bowing was simply polite. It says nothing about the person you bow to; it says something about you. My conscience dictates who I believe is worthy of respect; but that is internal. My outward actions signify that I am able and willing to observe cultural norms.

 

[Instructor]

See, I've got a different take on it. I'm not afraid to suck at something. I'm not afraid to be really bad at it and let the world see. You've seen my videos of my kata and my sparring; it's not great, it's OK at best.

But the point for me is this. It's real. It's what is. And sucking at something is the first step towards not being a complete loser at it. I don't even worry about mastering it. Competence would be good as an initial goal. Is that humble? I don't know, I guess so. More importantly to me, it's real and I'm not ashamed of it. Perhaps you could say I'm arrogant about how much I suck at martial arts (for now). That does not mean I won't get better.

Your a class act Bill. I respect your humility.

 

[Flying Crane]

seems to me a bit of (honest) humility could be a good thing in life in general. It's not limited to martial arts. Of course this also assumes our modern, fairly gentle society as contrasted with the Old China that CLFSEAN described.

False humility is irritating. Outright *******s are people for whom I have no time nor room in my life. People with genuine humility are those who you may never even suspect what they know underneath the surface, because they just don't make a big deal about it, and probably only their family and close friends really know what they have.

 

[Jenna]

Thank you so much for taking the time to consider your replies. I am grateful that this is not a simple black-and-white answer even if I would hope it were.

I do not know if I am perceiving a general gist. I think humility implies a certain withdrawal, is this correct?

I think there is a particular situation in which humility would be expected and perhaps demanded, though the time for such humility may not be afforded to you or the circumstances in which you would feel inclined to be humble may not be favourable. It is when you are fighting an adversary who is bigger, fitter, stronger, more experienced, more senior, carrying more reputation behind them and who moves people like me and you aside in their wake. Humility is expected. Even in our minds we are conditioned to humility as a sign of respect and deference in this situation from comparable situations? Is this correct?

Is there any situation where humility would be a good thing when dealing with an adversary?

Is there any situation where ultimate conceit in one's infallibility would be prudent?

Thank you very much.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think it depends on how "humility" is defined. And I don't mean by the dictionary, I mean the working definition.

Being humble doesn't mean saying "I'm no good", it means knowing your strengths and weaknesses, aknowledging what you know, but recognizing what you don't.

I'm an ER/Flight Nurse. And I'm very good at what I do. I'm good with trauma, cardiac, respiratory...

I'm not so good with pediatrics, and I frankly suck at OB/GYN.

Humility, to me, requires you to accept both the good and the bad.

 

[Buka]

That reminds me of a discussion we had here some time ago. Respect versus politeness. Some said they could not bring themselves to bow to someone they had no respect for, instructor or not. Some said they could bow to an instructor but only after he or she had proven they were worthy of such respect. My take on it was that bowing was simply polite. It says nothing about the person you bow to; it says something about you. My conscience dictates who I believe is worthy of respect; but that is internal. My outward actions signify that I am able and willing to observe cultural norms.

To me, the fact that you didn't start Martial Arts as a young kid - deprived the Martial Arts of a damn good man for many years.