Is bjj original

[Oily Dragon]

There are a few techniques that have been around in Kosen Judo for a long time (old videos from the 50s) that were independently invented by folks in the BJJ community. De La Riva guard is a good example. I am quite happy to assume that De La Riva came up with the guard totally independently despite the fact that it existed in (the fairly niche) Kosen Judo
Nothing unusual about that in human endevours

Once again reiterating that beyond these examples there has been and continues to be a lot of technical innovation and progression in BJJ

Kosen Judo is really just a ruleset for Kodokan Judo that allows for more ground time and techniques, with less focus on just standing throws and sweeps.

So it was BJJ before BJJ, or put another way Kosen more accurately represents the current BJJ ruleset. Kosen is relatively young, if somewhat underappreciated outside of Japan.

'Berimbolo' Was Already Being Used in Kosen Judo Way Back in 1950's

Many BJJ players wrongly believe that techniques such as Berimbolo, X guard, De La Riva guard or Spider guard are BJJ specific moves, but they have been used in Judo (especially Kosen Judo) for years even before Marcelo Garcia, Ricardo de La Riva etc.. brought it to the attention of the world...

www.bjjee.com

 

[Oily Dragon]

And then you have this. Here is Kron claiming Helio invented leverage on the ground, and the guard itself.

Sometimes a sweaty man tells you something, you damn well believe it if you're a newbie. He's very convincing, if you don't know any better.

Top comment.

 

[gerardfoy50]

And then you have this. Here is Kron claiming Helio invented leverage on the ground, and the guard itself.

Sometimes a sweaty man tells you something, you damn well believe it if you're a newbie. He's very convincing, if you don't know any better.

Top comment.

View attachment 28920

So can I say they are being dishonest here

 

[Oily Dragon]

So can I say they are being dishonest here

Well he's a young Gracie, who obviously loves the fact that his grandfather is a big hero. I'm sure he's full of tall tales about his elders. I can't imagine the pressure NOT to follow the family.

These might just be things he believes because of his environment. But it is a symptom of the larger issue of style worship, I think. You see it in really every style. If anybody in that class with him trained Judo newaza, they must have found those comments funny, this young guy making these extraordinary claims about his father's father. Adorable, even. I can't be mad at him. Maybe some day he'll really research Helio's story from outside POV, and grow his own understanding of his family's art.

Then 20 years from now we get the Kron video as old man, teaching a room full of new students "I used to think my family knew everything...". There's the real BJJ (r)evolution right there. These young BJJ dudes, even with their family names, need correction/education.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Well he's a young Gracie, who obviously loves the fact that his grandfather is a big hero. I'm sure he's full of tall tales about his elders. I can't imagine the pressure NOT to follow the family.

These might just be things he believes because of his environment. But it is a symptom of the larger issue of style worship, I think. You see it in really every style. If anybody in that class with him trained Judo newaza, they must have found those comments funny, this young guy making these extraordinary claims about his father's father. Adorable, even. I can't be mad at him. Maybe some day he'll really research Helio's story from outside POV, and grow his own understanding of his family's art.

Then 20 years from now we get the Kron video as old man, teaching a room full of new students "I used to think my family knew everything...". There's the real BJJ (r)evolution right there. These young BJJ dudes, even with their family names, need correction/education.

Yeah, Kron's viewpoint is the result of his grandfather, Helio, and other immediate members of the family being massive ... used car salesmen*, let us say.

*(I have mixed feelings about such an approach to self-promotion. It's not something I really care for, but it was an important part of the art I love becoming successful worldwide and available for me to practice.)

In the early days of Helio's career in self-promotion he made the claim that he and his brothers were the only ones teaching the true authentic Samurai jiu-jitsu in Brazil and that "Judo" was a watered down version created to fool westerners. Later in his career he changed the story to say that he had taken the techniques that Carlos had learned from Maeda and refined them so that they would work for a small, sickly, weak person like himself. (Helio was a college athlete, not sickly or weak.) It's important to note that he only started taking that sole credit for improving the art once his brothers had passed away. Even so, it's not a claim that was universally appreciated in the Gracie family. Carlson Gracie Sr (son of Carlos, nephew of Helio) was the top jiu-jitsu fighter through the 50s and 60s and trained many of the top fighters in the following generation. He had some strong words regarding Helio.

Rorion, Kron's uncle, was the second Gracie to move to the U.S. and start teaching jiu-jitsu, but he was the first to aggressively promote and market the art. He made connections in Hollywood and the media, marketed video tapes showing BJJ being used to win challenge matches, trademarked the name "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu"**, threatened to sue other members of the extended Gracie clan who used the term, and helped to create the UFC. He also promoted the story of Helio being the singular genius who was the founder or creator of BJJ by virtue of the improvements he had made to Judo.

**(Said trademark was eventually invalidated due to a lawsuit by Carley Gracie, the first Gracie to teach in the U.S.. But by that time people had started calling the art BJJ instead of GJJ.)

Kron's cousins Rener and Ryron (Rorion's sons) are much more respectful towards other martial arts, other branches of the family, and other non-Gracie BJJ practitioners. Even so, they are enthusiastic salesmen and one of their marketing points is the promotion of their grandfather as the founder of BJJ. I don't know whether they honestly believe it because that's what their immediate family told them or if it's just advertising spin.

In any case, BJJ has evolved beyond the Gracie family. They're all very good practitioners and instructors, but their last top-tier world class competitor was Roger Gracie, who is now retired. That's for the best as it allows the art to continue growing and individual members of the Gracie family to just be practitioners like anyone else rather than defenders of a legendary legacy.

 

[punisher73]

Yeah, Kron's viewpoint is the result of his grandfather, Helio, and other immediate members of the family being massive ... used car salesmen*, let us say.

*(I have mixed feelings about such an approach to self-promotion. It's not something I really care for, but it was an important part of the art I love becoming successful worldwide and available for me to practice.)

In the early days of Helio's career in self-promotion he made the claim that he and his brothers were the only ones teaching the true authentic Samurai jiu-jitsu in Brazil and that "Judo" was a watered down version created to fool westerners. Later in his career he changed the story to say that he had taken the techniques that Carlos had learned from Maeda and refined them so that they would work for a small, sickly, weak person like himself. (Helio was a college athlete, not sickly or weak.) It's important to note that he only started taking that sole credit for improving the art once his brothers had passed away. Even so, it's not a claim that was universally appreciated in the Gracie family. Carlson Gracie Sr (son of Carlos, nephew of Helio) was the top jiu-jitsu fighter through the 50s and 60s and trained many of the top fighters in the following generation. He had some strong words regarding Helio.

Rorion, Kron's uncle, was the second Gracie to move to the U.S. and start teaching jiu-jitsu, but he was the first to aggressively promote and market the art. He made connections in Hollywood and the media, marketed video tapes showing BJJ being used to win challenge matches, trademarked the name "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu"**, threatened to sue other members of the extended Gracie clan who used the term, and helped to create the UFC. He also promoted the story of Helio being the singular genius who was the founder or creator of BJJ by virtue of the improvements he had made to Judo.

**(Said trademark was eventually invalidated due to a lawsuit by Carley Gracie, the first Gracie to teach in the U.S.. But by that time people had started calling the art BJJ instead of GJJ.)

Kron's cousins Rener and Ryron (Rorion's sons) are much more respectful towards other martial arts, other branches of the family, and other non-Gracie BJJ practitioners. Even so, they are enthusiastic salesmen and one of their marketing points is the promotion of their grandfather as the founder of BJJ. I don't know whether they honestly believe it because that's what their immediate family told them or if it's just advertising spin.

In any case, BJJ has evolved beyond the Gracie family. They're all very good practitioners and instructors, but their last top-tier world class competitor was Roger Gracie, who is now retired. That's for the best as it allows the art to continue growing and individual members of the Gracie family to just be practitioners like anyone else rather than defenders of a legendary legacy.

Just one thing I would add...

There were other people who learned what Maeda taught and also taught BJJ. This is despite the claims and implied comments by the Gracies that they are/were the sole fountain of BJJ.

 

[gerardfoy50]

Just one thing I would add...

There were other people who learned what Maeda taught and also taught BJJ. This is despite the claims and implied comments by the Gracies that they are/were the sole fountain of BJJ.

Also ther claim that 90% of all street fights end on the ground, simple sales talk, mybye 30 to 40 %

 

[punisher73]

He was the one that beat out all the others. He was the one that combined TKD kicks, boxing hands and WC stuffs together.

A win is the ticket. Talk is cheap. I just hate people talk after BL died. He was the BEST back in the days, not just fighting, he was the first to push for weight training and conditioning while all the so called "grand masters" still smoke, bone and skin and just talk.

People knew this when BL was alive. Gene LeBell and Ed Parker both said that BL was extremely gifted and athletic but that his knowledge wasn't that deep.

Bruce Lee was human. He wasn't invincible. He was marketed VERY well after his death.

For example, The Tao of JKD that was published after his death. The majority of the book was copied from other martials arts (including boxing/fencing) and philosophers. BL just would change certain words like "zen" and substitute it with "JKD". They were his NOTES on what he was studying. They weren't his invention like it was marketed as.

It wasn't until the UFC and their marketing team started that BL suddenly became the "father of MMA". This ignored actual martial arts history or those that gave the idea to BL.

Ohh...the infamous fight with Wong Jack Man. The accounts don't make sense (he easily beat him, but was exhausted and then changed his entire approach to fighting?). But, either way, it was supposed to be a friendly sparring match that was kept private and BL ran his mouth about it afterwards. WJM challenged BL to fight him PUBLICALLY after that and BL never responded. Why would that be if he beat him so badly and could now show everyone how good he was? It also had NOTHING to do with BL teaching non-chinese people. There were other CMA teachers who had been doing that in SF's Chinatown for years (GM Ark Wong for example). The CMA teachers didn't like him because they thought he was a mouthy disrespectful punk.

He wasn't the first to push for weight training/conditioning either. Okinawan karate had been doing that for years through their hojo undo, Shaolin kung fu had been doing that for years (look at the 72 Consummate Arts of Shaolin just about every major weightlifting movement is in there). He was just the most famous MA that started to talk about that stuff. BUT, even though those arts did those things, they weren't widespread and there was A LOT of bad marketing by MA at the time that the little old Yoda-like teacher could beat anyone using their deadly art that they didn't need physical conditioning.

BL brought a lot of attention to these things, but he didn't come up with them on his own (conditioning, combining things from various arts).

 

[punisher73]

Also ther claim that 90% of all street fights end on the ground, simple sales talk, mybye 30 to 40 %

It actually came out later that their statistic was from an LAPD use of force report. Basically, 90% of the time, officers took the fight to the ground in order to restrain/handcuff a subject. It was not based on actual streetfights/assaults.

 

[lklawson]

Also ther claim that 90% of all street fights end on the ground, simple sales talk, mybye 30 to 40 %

The 90% Myth Deconstructed

The

cbd.atspace.com

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

It actually came out later that their statistic was from an LAPD use of force report. Basically, 90% of the time, officers took the fight to the ground in order to restrain/handcuff a subject. It was not based on actual streetfights/assaults.

It came from a study by Sgt. Greg Dossey which concluded that during an arrest, 62% of the time both parties ended up wrestling around on the ground.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Just one thing I would add...

There were other people who learned what Maeda taught and also taught BJJ. This is despite the claims and implied comments by the Gracies that they are/were the sole fountain of BJJ.

Yep. I mentioned the Luis Franca/Oswaldo Fadda lineage in one of my other comments.

in fairness, without the Gracie marketing push to distinguish BJJ, that lineage would probably have merged with the growing Judo community in Brazil. If not, it would be an obscure art limited to a handful of schools in Rio De Janeiro

 

[Alan0354]

People knew this when BL was alive. Gene LeBell and Ed Parker both said that BL was extremely gifted and athletic but that his knowledge wasn't that deep.

Bruce Lee was human. He wasn't invincible. He was marketed VERY well after his death.

For example, The Tao of JKD that was published after his death. The majority of the book was copied from other martials arts (including boxing/fencing) and philosophers. BL just would change certain words like "zen" and substitute it with "JKD". They were his NOTES on what he was studying. They weren't his invention like it was marketed as.

It wasn't until the UFC and their marketing team started that BL suddenly became the "father of MMA". This ignored actual martial arts history or those that gave the idea to BL.

Ohh...the infamous fight with Wong Jack Man. The accounts don't make sense (he easily beat him, but was exhausted and then changed his entire approach to fighting?). But, either way, it was supposed to be a friendly sparring match that was kept private and BL ran his mouth about it afterwards. WJM challenged BL to fight him PUBLICALLY after that and BL never responded. Why would that be if he beat him so badly and could now show everyone how good he was? It also had NOTHING to do with BL teaching non-chinese people. There were other CMA teachers who had been doing that in SF's Chinatown for years (GM Ark Wong for example). The CMA teachers didn't like him because they thought he was a mouthy disrespectful punk.

He wasn't the first to push for weight training/conditioning either. Okinawan karate had been doing that for years through their hojo undo, Shaolin kung fu had been doing that for years (look at the 72 Consummate Arts of Shaolin just about every major weightlifting movement is in there). He was just the most famous MA that started to talk about that stuff. BUT, even though those arts did those things, they weren't widespread and there was A LOT of bad marketing by MA at the time that the little old Yoda-like teacher could beat anyone using their deadly art that they didn't need physical conditioning.

BL brought a lot of attention to these things, but he didn't come up with them on his own (conditioning, combining things from various arts).

Typical, BL is not alive to defend himself anymore, people can talk what they want.

The fact remains BL changed the whole philosophy of MA. He mixed TKD, Boxing and WC, first step to MMA over 50 years ago. Nobody dare to fight him when he was alive. Only trash talk after he died. I am glad China finally put his statue up in honor him after so many years. He made CMA and TMA look bad at the time. He dominated the MA scene until Royce Gracie came in in UFC.

Believe me, IF anyone actually fight even with BL, they would be raving and reving all these years. NO BODY.......until BL died, then all of a sudden everybody came out and said they can beat BL and BL is not that great!!!

You know even MMA people recognize BL?

No, BL was the first if not, one of the very first to glorified weight training. I was in HK, I knew a lot of people into MA, the consensus was muscle got in the way, so they avoid weight training. BL was the first one in HK that did that and there was a lot of talk about that.

It was not as much as his style is so much more superior, it's him, the scary speed and strength of his strikes. He made everyone else moved like in slow motion.

But of cause, time changed, since UFC started, MA is improving everyday. BL is obsoleted also. MMA is so much more advanced now, it's a different world. Royce Gracie wiped out all the TMA, but he got killed soon after. I can watch a UFC fight an can tell what era it was recorded because I can see the change and improvement.

 

[gerardfoy50]

It came from a study by Sgt. Greg Dossey which concluded that during an arrest, 62% of the time both parties ended up wrestling around on the ground.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

It came from a study by Sgt. Greg Dossey which concluded that during an arrest, 62% of the time both parties ended up wrestling around on the ground.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

One study, how big was the subject group what were the variables, can it be translated to a wider group, another guy went through hours of street fight footage and found 38% went to the ground, every fights different, it’s just another sales claim to get the consumer to buy. Shop wisely

 

[lklawson]

One study, how big was the subject group what were the variables,

The original study used 5,617 use of force incident narratives written by officers.

It's not hard to find details about the study.

Going to the Ground: Lessons from Law Enforcement

Journal of Non-Lethal Combatives in EJMAS

ejmas.com

can it be translated to a wider group

No. It was a study about arrests and has very limited application to "fights" which aren't about arrest, restraint, or detention.

another guy went through hours of street fight footage and found 38% went to the ground,

The Violence Project by James LaFonde, compiled from 1,500 informal, non-scientific, "interviews."

If only someone had mentioned these things just a few posts up-thread.

Is bjj original

There are a few techniques that have been around in Kosen Judo for a long time (old videos from the 50s) that were independently invented by folks in the BJJ community. De La Riva guard is a good example. I am quite happy to assume that De La Riva came up with the guard totally independently...

www.martialtalk.com

 

[Buka]

As a cop, I'd say about twenty percent of arrests/fights I was part of ended up on the ground. That doesn't mean squat in the big picture, that was just me and my guys.

At the airport job I had, a big guy from Texas and his wife went through TSA, and once they were upstairs at the gates, she told him she wanted a divorce. You can imagine how that went.

He comes running downstairs, acting crazy. Two cops tried to talk him down and help him. He screams "arrest me, go ahead, arrest me!" He then places his hands behind his back and LEAPS in the air like he's going off a high diving board. (It was really something to see.)

He landed face first on the cement, his face erupts in blood, and I really mean erupts, both nostrils like faucets, his forehead bleeding and his chin spouting.

The cops go to cuff him and he starts to fight. It took six cops to cuff him without further hurting him. They were slipping on the blood like it was one of those slip and slides.

Afterwards it looked like everyone had been in a war, just covered in the guys blood all over them.

It's only been a couple weeks and already I don't miss wearing a badge.

 

[lklawson]

As a cop, I'd say about twenty percent of arrests/fights I was part of ended up on the ground. That doesn't mean squat in the big picture, that was just me and my guys.

At the airport job I had, a big guy from Texas and his wife went through TSA, and once they were upstairs at the gates, she told him she wanted a divorce. You can imagine how that went.

He comes running downstairs, acting crazy. Two cops tried to talk him down and help him. He screams "arrest me, go ahead, arrest me!" He then places his hands behind his back and LEAPS in the air like he's going off a high diving board. (It was really something to see.)

He landed face first on the cement, his face erupts in blood, and I really mean erupts, both nostrils like faucets, his forehead bleeding and his chin spouting.

The cops go to cuff him and he starts to fight. It took six cops to cuff him without further hurting him. They were slipping on the blood like it was one of those slip and slides.

Afterwards it looked like everyone had been in a war, just covered in the guys blood all over them.

It's only been a couple weeks and already I don't miss wearing a badge.

Yeah, that was me. Everything was fine until one of them tried to stop the nosebleed by putting a tourniquet around my neck.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[punisher73]

Typical, BL is not alive to defend himself anymore, people can talk what they want.

The fact remains BL changed the whole philosophy of MA. He mixed TKD, Boxing and WC, first step to MMA over 50 years ago. Nobody dare to fight him when he was alive. Only trash talk after he died. I am glad China finally put his statue up in honor him after so many years. He made CMA and TMA look bad at the time. He dominated the MA scene until Royce Gracie came in in UFC.

Believe me, IF anyone actually fight even with BL, they would be raving and reving all these years. NO BODY.......until BL died, then all of a sudden everybody came out and said they can beat BL and BL is not that great!!!

You know even MMA people recognize BL?

No, BL was the first if not, one of the very first to glorified weight training. I was in HK, I knew a lot of people into MA, the consensus was muscle got in the way, so they avoid weight training. BL was the first one in HK that did that and there was a lot of talk about that.

It was not as much as his style is so much more superior, it's him, the scary speed and strength of his strikes. He made everyone else moved like in slow motion.

But of cause, time changed, since UFC started, MA is improving everyday. BL is obsoleted also. MMA is so much more advanced now, it's a different world. Royce Gracie wiped out all the TMA, but he got killed soon after. I can watch a UFC fight an can tell what era it was recorded because I can see the change and improvement.

Ok, I won't let your hero worship get in the way of facts by people that were there.

Probably don't want to hear about his steroid use or cocaine habit either.

 

[Alan0354]

Ok, I won't let your hero worship get in the way of facts by people that were there.

Probably don't want to hear about his steroid use or cocaine habit either.

Oh yeh, I heard about steroid. According to The tv series Autopsy: Last Hour of Bruce Lee by Michael Hunter, Bruce Lee died of steroid injection on his spine. Effect was not well known back in the days. Now you can only inject Cortisone like two months apart and you can only inject to the same place TWICE and one has to wait for a while to have injection again.

i don't care about his personal life, I just look at his contribution to MA back in late 60s.

I even said BL won't last a minute in the Octagon today. BUT that doesn't mitigate his contribution to the revolution of MA.

I can tell you when I took TKD in 1984, my teacher had a huge Bruce Lee picture hanging right there. He taught kick boxing ( where BL literally started) instead of traditional TKD. We use boxing hands, more importantly, all our kicks were from the front leg instead of the back leg like traditional TKD. That's exactly from BL's movie fighting with Chuck Noris.

I know a lot of people till today are bitter about BL and matter of fact, Royce Gracie and UFC MMA. Still bad mouth and trying to invalidate them. that still making excuses why they won't go up and actually challenge and step into the Octagon, that there are too much rules and all that. I wonder why nobody other than one or two challenged BL when he was alive. Only trash talk after he died. I guess he no longer can defend himself.

Now, I am not saying BL is still good in today's standard, MMA is so so much more advanced, BL is one dimension is striking only. He is so far behind it's not funny anymore. So is Royce Gracie that he dominated UFC in the early 90s. Gracie got beat so bad it's embarrassing. Matt Huges literally flatten him, beat Gracie in his own game and referee had to stop the fight in less than 2 minutes. BUT, we have to honor the contribution of BL and Royce Gracie that came it and completely change the MA scene.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Typical, BL is not alive to defend himself anymore, people can talk what they want.

The fact remains BL changed the whole philosophy of MA. He mixed TKD, Boxing and WC, first step to MMA over 50 years ago. Nobody dare to fight him when he was alive. Only trash talk after he died. I am glad China finally put his statue up in honor him after so many years. He made CMA and TMA look bad at the time. He dominated the MA scene until Royce Gracie came in in UFC.

Believe me, IF anyone actually fight even with BL, they would be raving and reving all these years. NO BODY.......until BL died, then all of a sudden everybody came out and said they can beat BL and BL is not that great!!!

You know even MMA people recognize BL?

No, BL was the first if not, one of the very first to glorified weight training. I was in HK, I knew a lot of people into MA, the consensus was muscle got in the way, so they avoid weight training. BL was the first one in HK that did that and there was a lot of talk about that.

It was not as much as his style is so much more superior, it's him, the scary speed and strength of his strikes. He made everyone else moved like in slow motion.

But of cause, time changed, since UFC started, MA is improving everyday. BL is obsoleted also. MMA is so much more advanced now, it's a different world. Royce Gracie wiped out all the TMA, but he got killed soon after. I can watch a UFC fight an can tell what era it was recorded because I can see the change and improvement.

People have been combing systems for a long time. Probably as long as there have been systems. My primary art is a blend of several arts, and predates Lee’s synthesis. And it’s certainly not the first to do so.