Is bjj original

[Jimmythebull]

This thread is about BJJ. Royce Gracie was creamed by Matt Huges long time ago. Now, it's MMA that's the most advance, combine BJJ, Wrestling, Muy Thai. Just BJJ alone won't do it. And Yes, I would learn BJJ any time of the day over TMA because my back ground is TKD and Kick Boxing, mainly striking type. I wish I learn BJJ so I can be all around. I just never seen much Judo in the mix.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Enough said I think...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I also think that Judo is not that popular in comparison to BJJ is b/c of the constant impact of getting thrown. I don't like it. I'll train it once in a while, but it's not fun to get thrown all day even w/good break falling. My gym is owned by a long line of Judokas and they've tried to have a Judo class but rarely anyone joins it, even only once a week. And it's like 20-30 people per class, 3-4 classes of BJJ, 6 days/wk. I did some Japanese JJ at Karate joint, so it was ONE layer of puzzle mat on hardwood floors; it wasn't fun at all getting thrown there. Judo clubs are like $50/mo. vs. $120-150/mo for BJJ ($200 for unlimited), but they still can't get the same numbers.

The puzzle mats I've trained on were absolutely awful for falls. I'd almost prefer unpadded carpet (like in hotel ballrooms). I'm sure some must be better than that, but those were just bad.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Speaking of Judo, Judo throws mainly pulling the opponent towards them, turn and throw the opponent over the hip. It is natural for the opponent to pull back to resist. This is the natural reaction of human. So it becomes a tuck of war and the stronger one win. That's why I said learn a few months, learn the natural response. You don't need a lot of skills to resist Judo throws. Just squat down a little, pull back, he will have a hell of a time to throw you over the hip.

This is a misunderstanding of how Judo works. There are a number of throws that are dependent upon the reversal you're talking about. Some of them are trained using exactly the dynamic you're saying stops Judo from being effective (pull and wait for them to pull back).

 

[punisher73]

As with ANY art, nothing is really original. They are just refinements and sometimes advancements of pre-existing material.

Judo's ne-waza came from another Japanese Jujitsu school and was a combination of other JJJ school itself. Judo was brought over to Brazil and taught. It was further refined into BJJ. Contrary to the Gracies, there were others who were teaching BJJ that did not learn from the Gracies. They were great at marketing.
Even now, there is a rift between some of the Gracie brothers that BJJ is becoming to "sport oriented" and want to go back to a more self-defense oriented approach to their grappling. From what the Gracie family has said, Rolls was the best ever. He cross trained and brought in wrestling and Sambo into the technique repertoire. Rickson was greatly influenced by Rolls in his approach.

If you look at the Relson self-defense videos that they put out in the 90's, the GJJ "self-defense techniques" look just like what you would learn in just about any other TMA for their standup stuff.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have eyes, I saw how advanced belts fight.

How come people keep thinking just because one have not train that long don't know how to understand the technique? This is NOT rocket science, just simple physics and common sense. Is that a technique to shut up people that doesn't agree ?

You think this is still in the last century? You look at the video and analyze it. There is NO MYSTERY. Ha ha, don't tell the next thing you say is I don't have the knowledge to understand even watching the video. Good thing is video is honest, it shows who's kicking butt and who's butt being kicked.

This is something that came up in other threads. If you don't actually know the principles behind a movement, it's easy to think you're seeing something, while you're missing something completely different.

Judoka manage to throw other Judoka all the time. And it's not always about who's stronger. There are plenty of times they manage to read the next move and slip in a technique that takes advantage of their opponent's movement. And remember that seeing two Judoka fight is seeing two people who are also experts at countering Judo. Someone with less experience in those principles will also be less skilled at those counters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They have a more advanced training model. In that they are far more active at introducing outside influence.

The open mat for example.

I think the innovation and openness is what defines BJJ (and MMA gyms), more than anything else. Those of us who enjoy more traditional styles like the closed system and the challenge it creates, but that means we don't evolve quickly (or sometimes at all).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I only watch UFC and Bellator(spelling) to judge. At least Gracie kicked butt at the beginning. Then people learn. It's like a game of chest, one comes up, people learn how to solve the puzzle, then it's up to someone else to solve the puzzle and win.

A lot of the reason the Gracies won early in that, was that they were training to beat other styles, while many other styles were training only against (and for) themselves. It wasn't superiority of the techniques, but of the model.

 

[jayoliver00]

You basically just said the same thing I did. A rose by any other name.

No, b/c his is different but to White belts, it looks the same.

 

[jayoliver00]

In response to your question about old manuals showing grappling techniques. What's so funny?

You also claimed those 4 things were "crazy BJJ moves". They're really basic stuff, dude. It's not like humans just figured out ground combat recently.

You should really check out the manual. 10,000 pages in it's native language and lots of illustrations of standing and ground combat styles. The weapons schematics are the coolest!

Haha, so you're doubling down on those 4 goofy pics you posted that had zero connections to the specific BJJ techniques that I argued; couldn't be found documented in history?

Why should I check those manuals when you're the one trying to argue that Chinese people knew all of these BJJ techs already; esp. with those 4 pics, LOL.

 

[jayoliver00]

Agree ..it's like the BJJ community think they're so advanced.

Then prove it. Show that these techniques already existed in Judo. It should be easy as there are tons of Judo videos on Youtube.

Example: X-guard, Rubber-guard, De La Riva-guard, Iminari roll, Berimbolo,

 

[jayoliver00]

So back when the gracies were starting out and promoting bjj a european wrestler challenged them. They put so many rules in place to give them an advantage like wearing a gi and not allowing him to use his best moves, he still won easy. People started saying that his style was better so 3 of them attacked from behind at night with baseball bats and put the guy in a wheelchair. Bjj is good but no here has proved that any of it is original. Or that they hold a moral high ground in the way the conduct themselves

Yea, they ain't angels, but BJJ is real which is why it's so popular in comparison to everything else.

 

[jayoliver00]

The Gracie Gods have been beaten.
Please stop it Alan it's getting embarrassing

man calm down. he even said that "At least Gracie kicked butt at the beginning". They're not that dominant now nor in the last 15 years or so, in MMA.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Example: X-guard, Rubber-guard, De La Riva-guard, Iminari roll, Berimbolo,

Oh wow...

 

[jayoliver00]

A lot of the reason the Gracies won early in that, was that they were training to beat other styles, while many other styles were training only against (and for) themselves. It wasn't superiority of the techniques, but of the model.

Dude, all of those other styles that remained mostly to pure TMA's, continued to lose *MOST* of the time for the next 30 years straight in the UFC and other MMA promotions.

What made UFC 1-4 incredibly interesting was that it put standup strikers vs. grapplers. Nobody wanted to see Karate vs. Karate, or KF vs Karate, etc. these joints have been done ad nauseam. I remember renting VHS tapes and wanting my style of TKD to win vs. Gracie. I was even hoping that Karate would beat him, failed. Was so happy to see Kimo (TKD) hurt him. But then I went to train BJJ. Kimo trained BJJ.

The first 3 years or so were the best time for any TMA style to prove themselves & dominate the MA world, but they all failed miserably (esp. when the Wrestlers started appearing). This is why MMA is so real; b/c real Fighters adjusted....even the Wrestlers & BJJ'ers started training Boxing & Muay Thai, etc.

 

[Jimmythebull]

man calm down

Not sure what you mean.

 

[jayoliver00]

Oh wow...

Just go look those techniques up on youtube since I doubt you train.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Haha, so you're doubling down on those 4 goofy pics you posted that had zero connections to the specific BJJ techniques that I argued; couldn't be found documented in history?

Why should I check those manuals when you're the one trying to argue that Chinese people knew all of these BJJ techs already; esp. with those 4 pics, LOL.

Come on man, don't make this a racial issue.

Those 4 pictures I grabbed randomly off Google, to support Lawson's comment to you about all these "fancy" moves like single leg and fireman's carry and suplex other grappling craft are nothing new.

It wasn't called a fireman's carry until we invented firemen, can you dig it?

You should read the Bubishi to expand your knowledge. Because you're wasting time trying to argue that BJJ "invents" things.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Dude, all of those other styles that remained mostly to pure TMA's, continued to lose *MOST* of the time for the next 30 years straight in the UFC and other MMA promotions.

What made UFC 1-4 incredibly interesting was that it put standup strikers vs. grapplers. Nobody wanted to see Karate vs. Karate, or KF vs Karate, etc. these joints have been done ad nauseam. I remember renting VHS tapes and wanting my style of TKD to win vs. Gracie. I was even hoping that Karate would beat him, failed. Was so happy to see Kimo (TKD) hurt him. But then I went to train BJJ. Kimo trained BJJ.

The first 3 years or so were the best time for any TMA style to prove themselves & dominate the MA world, but they all failed miserably (esp. when the Wrestlers started appearing). This is why MMA is so real; b/c real Fighters adjusted....even the Wrestlers & BJJ'ers started training Boxing & Muay Thai, etc.

A lot of this is not true. "All failed"?

This is why you should read more.

And maybe tone down the BJJ worship a little? Just some friendly advice, it's kind of obnoxious.

 

[jayoliver00]

Come on man, don't make this a racial issue.

You posted pictures of Chinese people.

Those 4 pictures I grabbed randomly off Google, to support Lawson's comment to you about all these "fancy" moves like single leg and fireman's carry and other grappling craft are nothing new.

It wasn't called a fireman's carry until we invented firemen, can you dig it?

You should read the Bubishi to expand your knowledge. Because you're wasting time trying to argue that BJJ "invents" things.

It's clear that you don't have a higher understanding of BJJ and these specific techniques so you're just broad brushing with a canned answer.

Why can't you show me similar pics of these Chinese people executing the Berimbolo?