Is bjj original

[Tony Dismukes]

This is my wild guess without facts:

I bet BJJ was from Asia originally, just by the simple fact the history of the America continent is ONLY a few hundred years, people moved from all over the world to America continent. It is just logic that the original technique was brought in from outside. Then it just evolved in Brazil. Then you just look at difference styles and it's likely evolve from either Judo or Jujitsu of Japan.

Also remember Royce Gracie fight with "ge", that exactly like Judo "ge".( maybe japanese JJ "ge"). I don't record any Chinese MA wear those kind of white "ge".

That's the most logical way to GUESS.

You don’t have to guess, because the full history of BJJ is pretty well known and can be verified with historical documents and eyewitness accounts. The art is less than 100 years old.

I’ll go ahead and summarize the highlights for anyone who doesn’t know the history or who only knows the version advertised by Rorion Gracie (which contained a certain amount of spin).

In the early part of the 20th century there was a Japanese Judo master named Mitsuo Maeda who traveled to the west and embarked on a career as a prizefighter and sometimes Judo instructor. After spending time in the U.S. and Europe, he moved to Brazil in 1914, where he continued to fight and sometimes teach. During this time, Judo was still sometimes referred to as Kano Jujutsu and it appears that Maeda called himself a jujutsu instructor.

According to Gracie family tradition, Carlos Gracie learned directly from Maeda. Examination of the timeline of who lived where when, it seems very possible that Carlos actually learned mostly from another student of Maeda’s. Either way, it doesn’t appear that his training under an instructor went on very long - probably two years at most. There’s also no record of him ever receiving any official belt rank in Judo.

Carlos taught what he had learned to his brothers (in particular George and Helio) and then they went into business teaching Jiu-jitsu and promoting themselves and their art to the general public via challenge matches. Along the way, they shifted the focus of the art onto ne-waza (ground fighting). There are probably several reasons for this, but one primary motivation for continuing that evolution was challenge matches against other styles. Since most people don’t have a natural instinct for the correct way to move on the ground and since most styles don’t teach much in the way of ground fighting, the Gracies has a secret weapon as long as they could drag their opponents down.

I should mention that the Gracies were not the only people passing down the tradition from Maeda. There was another one of Maeda’s students named Luis Franca and he had a student named Oswaldo Fadda who taught at the same time as the Gracies. You can still find Franca/Fadda lineage schools, but due to cross pollination, what they teach is indistinguishable from Gracie lineage schools. However the Gracies were much more aggressive in their marketing and publicity so without their efforts the art would probably never have become the worldwide phenomenon that it is today.

So, if Carlos Gracie started out with less than two years of Judo training, how did BJJ end up as the highly refined art that it is today? There are a few factors…

1) Fighting. The Gracies did a lot of challenge matches for money and publicity. They also weren’t above starting fights in the streets or on the beaches or in unofficial dojo storms. Then they had a boatload of kids and the following generations of Gracies and their students did the same thing. You learn stuff fighting practitioners of other arts.

2) Sparring during training. Extensive periods of live grappling during every class was the norm. You learn stuff doing a lot of sparring.

3) Stealing everything useful they could find from every other art they encountered. This included Judo, Sambo, Freestyle wrestling, catch wrestling, and Lutre Livre. (Technically Lutre Livre is just Portuguese for catch wrestling, but it did have a bit of separate evolution in Brazil just like BJJ did.) In the early days, some of the more self-promoting Gracie family members like Helio pretended that these innovations all came from within the family, but these days most BJJ instructors are happy to give credit when they pass on knowledge they’ve picked up from other systems.

So, TLDR, BJJ started from a foundation of basic Judo, picked up additional methods from other arts (including more Judo), and evolved in a separate direction from related styles based on a heavy focus on newaza and a tradition of challenge matches against other styles.

 

[Alan0354]

Thanks Tony

Good information.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is my wild guess without facts:

I bet BJJ was from Asia originally, just by the simple fact the history of the America continent is ONLY a few hundred years, people moved from all over the world to America continent. It is just logic that the original technique was brought in from outside. Then it just evolved in Brazil. Then you just look at difference styles and it's likely evolve from either Judo or Jujitsu of Japan.

Also remember Royce Gracie fight with "ge", that exactly like Judo "ge".( maybe japanese JJ "ge"). I don't record any Chinese MA wear those kind of white "ge".

That's the most logical way to GUESS.

BJJ's original development was specifically mostly a subset of Judo (at the time still often referred to as jujitsu/jiujutsu). The new art was termed Brazilian Jiujutsu to differentiate it from the Japanese art it came from. There's no mystery about the origin - it's well known.

Oh, and it's "gi" (more correctly "dogi", I've been told, but many of us still just say "gi").

 

[gerardfoy50]

Probably any movement which is physically possible to carry out in a fight or grappling match has been discovered by multiple people in the past, if only by accident. A better question would be whether those techniques were practiced regularly or formalized as part of an art's curriculum.

There are definitely techniques in BJJ which were never part of any official Judo or JJJ curriculum and were probably not practiced regularly if someone did stumble on them. Things like Berimbolos or the Worm Guard come to mind. But I'd argue those aren't really what make BJJ special.

What BJJ did was take the ne-waza from Judo (probably not even the complete syllabus in the beginning, since Carlos Gracie didn't have a lot of training from Maeda) and delve deep into the details of how to make it work effectively. Along the way, the BJJ community swiped concepts, moves, and technical details from every other grappling art they encountered. Then they continued experimenting with ways to refine those moves over the course of 90 years, but particularly in the last 30 years as the community spread worldwide. There are basic techniques which I learned 20+ years ago that are now taught completely differently. The guillotine choke that I teach now looks outwardly like the guillotine that I learned back in the 90s, but you could argue that it's really a different technique because the finishing mechanics are fundamentally different.

That process of evolutionary refinement is how we end up with ne-waza knowledge in BJJ which you won't find in Judo.

Of course, BJJ is not the only art which has practiced continuous evolutionary refinement. While BJJ refined its newaza, its takedowns continued at a more rudimentary level. Meanwhile Judo continued developing a deeper and deeper understanding of how to set up and execute throws. And even though newaza was less emphasized in Judo, some people got very good at the aspects which are rewarded in Judo competition. For example, a Judo newaza specialist is more likely to be skilled at pinning someone with kesa gatame, transitioning directly from a throw into a submission, or attacking the turtle within a short time limit than a BJJ practitioner of the same level.

Which is good, because we BJJ practitioners will gladly steal the subtleties that practitioners of other arts have spent decades refining. Even now there are jiujiteiros analyzing the methods of Khabib Nurmagomedov to see what we can learn from his success.

Love this answer, learned so much from it, thanks

 

[jayoliver00]

Does anyone know how many bjj techniques are invented by bjj, as far as I know they are all just judo groundwork technique with a different name, have they actually created anything for themselves,

BJJ is evolving every year since 1992's UFC 1. There's a lot more to BJJ now then when the Gracies brought it to the USA. A lot of techs in BJJ didn't exist with the Gracies back then;so especially not with Judo.

Example: X-guard, Rubber-guard, De La Riva-guard, Iminari roll, Berimbolo, etc. You can't find these in Judo instructionals, manuals, publications, etc. prior to 2000. While you could see Youtube videos of Judokas ground fighting/newaza and using these techs. or even teaching it b/c they also train BJJ or just copied it off of Youtube.

 

[jayoliver00]

Then you need to read some old manuals. Those techniques are documented going back to way before bjj or even judo.

Are there documents of the X-guard, Rubber-guard, De La Riva-guard, Iminari roll, Berimbolo? My gym is owned by a family line of Judokas. They were all Judokas until the Gracies stormed their dojo and beat them all and made converts.

 

[lklawson]

Are there documents of the X-guard, Rubber-guard, De La Riva-guard, Iminari roll, Berimbolo? My gym is owned by a family line of Judokas. They were all Judokas until the Gracies stormed their dojo and beat them all and made converts.

In Judo? Not that I'm aware of. In other manuals, artwork, and iconography? You'd be surprised.

 

[Alan0354]

BJJ is evolving every year since 1992's UFC 1. There's a lot more to BJJ now then when the Gracies brought it to the USA. A lot of techs in BJJ didn't exist with the Gracies back then;so especially not with Judo.

Example: X-guard, Rubber-guard, De La Riva-guard, Iminari roll, Berimbolo, etc. You can't find these in Judo instructionals, manuals, publications, etc. prior to 2000. While you could see Youtube videos of Judokas ground fighting/newaza and using these techs. or even teaching it b/c they also train BJJ or just copied it off of Youtube.

That's exactly why if I were to go to any school, it would be BJJ. In this age, one has to constantly improve. When Royce Gracie got his butt handed to him by Matt Huges, I bet they don't talk trash or making excuses, but look inwards and see what can they improve with newer stuffs.

Now with videos, MA is like any other sports, you study others, come up with solution, new moves to get ahead, not stuck with what was being taught from hundreds of years ago.

 

[jayoliver00]

In Judo? Not that I'm aware of. In other manuals, artwork, and iconography? You'd be surprised.

But Judo is prob. very extensive due to its popularity & being an Olympic sport. I'm sure there are resemblance of these BJJ techs in pics, but I doubt it's the same b/c it's hard to prove it w/o a video. In general, if a BJJ'er boasts of himself creating a new tech. & naming it after himself, there will be challenges to its validity all over the internet if such tech already existed.

 

[Alan0354]

But Judo is prob. very extensive due to its popularity & being an Olympic sport. I'm sure there are resemblance of these BJJ techs in pics, but I doubt it's the same b/c it's hard to prove it w/o a video. In general, if a BJJ'er boasts of himself creating a new tech. & naming it after himself, there will be challenges to its validity all over the internet if such tech already existed.

UFC is just as if not bigger than Olympic in fighting arts now. It's big business.

I learned Judo 50 years ago, I can tell you the first time I saw Gracie, it was a total surprise to me. It never even cross my mind BJJ and Judo had any link. It's totally new to me. Looking back, Olympic might ruin Judo making it a show sport under so many rules it is not useful anymore as a fighting skill.

I would learn a few months of judo, not for fighting, but general how to fall on the ground. It is useful when you get old. Also how to resist being throw by judo throws. But a few months is enough, move on.

Video changes the dynamics completely, there's no where to hide anymore. No more excuses, just who walk away from the stage.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But Judo is prob. very extensive due to its popularity & being an Olympic sport. I'm sure there are resemblance of these BJJ techs in pics, but I doubt it's the same b/c it's hard to prove it w/o a video. In general, if a BJJ'er boasts of himself creating a new tech. & naming it after himself, there will be challenges to its validity all over the internet if such tech already existed.

I think the point is that (as others have said) there are a limited number of ways to move a body in combat. Likely, variations of everything we do now were done before. Likely, variations of anything anyone discovers or invents now have been done before, and perhaps even forgotten over time. I've personally "discovered" a number of throws that I later learned from other sources.

 

[jayoliver00]

UFC is just as if not bigger than Olympic in fighting arts now. It's big business.

I learned Judo 50 years ago, I can tell you the first time I saw Gracie, it was a total surprise to me. It never even cross my mind BJJ and Judo had any link. It's totally new to me. Looking back, Olympic might ruin Judo making it a show sport under so many rules it is not useful anymore as a fighting skill.

I would learn a few months of judo, not for fighting, but general how to fall on the ground. It is useful when you get old. Also how to resist being throw by judo throws. But a few months is enough, move on.

Video changes the dynamics completely, there's no where to hide anymore. No more excuses, just who walk away from the stage.

I also think that Judo is not that popular in comparison to BJJ is b/c of the constant impact of getting thrown. I don't like it. I'll train it once in a while, but it's not fun to get thrown all day even w/good break falling. My gym is owned by a long line of Judokas and they've tried to have a Judo class but rarely anyone joins it, even only once a week. And it's like 20-30 people per class, 3-4 classes of BJJ, 6 days/wk. I did some Japanese JJ at Karate joint, so it was ONE layer of puzzle mat on hardwood floors; it wasn't fun at all getting thrown there. Judo clubs are like $50/mo. vs. $120-150/mo for BJJ ($200 for unlimited), but they still can't get the same numbers.

 

[jayoliver00]

I think the point is that (as others have said) there are a limited number of ways to move a body in combat. Likely, variations of everything we do now were done before. Likely, variations of anything anyone discovers or invents now have been done before, and perhaps even forgotten over time. I've personally "discovered" a number of throws that I later learned from other sources.

Yeah, getting thrown is usually a few steps. But these crazy BJJ moves are very intricate sometimes. And you can do a lot of variations of things while lying on the ground as opposed to standing up, ie. the Iminari Roll to attacking the knee. Even with Ryan Hall, it's kind of different so he technically can call his the Hall Roll or something. Because if some guy claims that he invented a new BJJ move, there will be people challenging him if it already existed; esp. from the Catch Wrestling community.

 

[Alan0354]

I also think that Judo is not that popular in comparison to BJJ is b/c of the constant impact of getting thrown. I don't like it. I'll train it once in a while, but it's not fun to get thrown all day even w/good break falling. My gym is owned by a long line of Judokas and they've tried to have a Judo class but rarely anyone joins it, even only once a week. And it's like 20-30 people per class, 3-4 classes of BJJ, 6 days/wk. I did some Japanese JJ at Karate joint, so it was ONE layer of puzzle mat on hardwood floors; it wasn't fun at all getting thrown there. Judo clubs are like $50/mo. vs. $120-150/mo for BJJ ($200 for unlimited), but they still can't get the same numbers.

Ha ha, BJJ kick butts, that's the biggest selling point. No matter how jealous people are, the butt kick was REAL. Just like Bruce Lee kicked butts 50 years ago. Gracie did it 30 years ago, they both become Legends. Ha ha, imagine people still denying the greatness of Bruce Lee that changed the fighting scene where PKA and WKA got so popular after him. Gracie completing change the concept of fighting 30 years ago. Even make Bruce Lee obsoleted. That's how the new world order. Keep improving, those who cannot keep up get left behind.

Speaking of Judo, Judo throws mainly pulling the opponent towards them, turn and throw the opponent over the hip. It is natural for the opponent to pull back to resist. This is the natural reaction of human. So it becomes a tuck of war and the stronger one win. That's why I said learn a few months, learn the natural response. You don't need a lot of skills to resist Judo throws. Just squat down a little, pull back, he will have a hell of a time to throw you over the hip.

As for BJJ, seems like their take down is to push you on your back. They shoot, grab your legs to prevent you from stepping back, then push you on your back. If natural instinct of the person is to step back, that even add to the effectiveness of the BJJ take down.

I just think BJJ is so much more advance than Judo. And this is from one that had a year of Judo.

I am not saying all these because I know BJJ. I belong to Bruce Lee's days. I am chopped meat now!!! But the truth is the truth. I am not going to paint a rosy picture over it. I am using kick boxing as aerobics. I only come here because I learning stick fight using a cane as I am old enough to have a cane going everywhere.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Speaking of Judo, Judo throws mainly pulling the opponent towards them, turn and throw the opponent over the hip. It is natural for the opponent to pull back to resist. This is the natural reaction of human. So it becomes a tuck of war and the stronger one win.

Strength is important in any grappling art or combat sport, but no, succeeding in a Judo throw is not a matter of the stronger person winning a tug of war. It might have seemed that way to you as a beginning student who hadn't yet learned the nuances of setups, gripping, kuzushi, angles, timing, sensitivity, combinations, and so on. But no one gets very far in Judo competition by just matching strength directly against strength.

You don't need a lot of skills to resist Judo throws. Just squat down a little, pull back, he will have a hell of a time to throw you over the hip.

Whereupon a good judoka switches from pulling you forward to throwing you backward with a move like ko uchi gari or o uchi gari, using your resistance against you.

I just think BJJ is so much more advance than Judo. And this is from one that had a year of Judo.

Speaking as a BJJ instructor who has been practicing BJJ for over 22 years, it really isn't. BJJ is more advanced than Judo at certain aspects of grappling. Judo is more advanced than BJJ at certain other aspects of grappling. Each art contains an immense wealth of highly refined, highly effective techniques, tactics, and principles.

 

[Buka]

You don’t have to guess, because the full history of BJJ is pretty well known and can be verified with historical documents and eyewitness accounts. The art is less than 100 years old.

I’ll go ahead and summarize the highlights for anyone who doesn’t know the history or who only knows the version advertised by Rorion Gracie (which contained a certain amount of spin).

In the early part of the 20th century there was a Japanese Judo master named Mitsuo Maeda who traveled to the west and embarked on a career as a prizefighter and sometimes Judo instructor. After spending time in the U.S. and Europe, he moved to Brazil in 1914, where he continued to fight and sometimes teach. During this time, Judo was still sometimes referred to as Kano Jujutsu and it appears that Maeda called himself a jujutsu instructor.

According to Gracie family tradition, Carlos Gracie learned directly from Maeda. Examination of the timeline of who lived where when, it seems very possible that Carlos actually learned mostly from another student of Maeda’s. Either way, it doesn’t appear that his training under an instructor went on very long - probably two years at most. There’s also no record of him ever receiving any official belt rank in Judo.

Carlos taught what he had learned to his brothers (in particular George and Helio) and then they went into business teaching Jiu-jitsu and promoting themselves and their art to the general public via challenge matches. Along the way, they shifted the focus of the art onto ne-waza (ground fighting). There are probably several reasons for this, but one primary motivation for continuing that evolution was challenge matches against other styles. Since most people don’t have a natural instinct for the correct way to move on the ground and since most styles don’t teach much in the way of ground fighting, the Gracies has a secret weapon as long as they could drag their opponents down.

I should mention that the Gracies were not the only people passing down the tradition from Maeda. There was another one of Maeda’s students named Luis Franca and he had a student named Oswaldo Fadda who taught at the same time as the Gracies. You can still find Franca/Fadda lineage schools, but due to cross pollination, what they teach is indistinguishable from Gracie lineage schools. However the Gracies were much more aggressive in their marketing and publicity so without their efforts the art would probably never have become the worldwide phenomenon that it is today.

So, if Carlos Gracie started out with less than two years of Judo training, how did BJJ end up as the highly refined art that it is today? There are a few factors…

1) Fighting. The Gracies did a lot of challenge matches for money and publicity. They also weren’t above starting fights in the streets or on the beaches or in unofficial dojo storms. Then they had a boatload of kids and the following generations of Gracies and their students did the same thing. You learn stuff fighting practitioners of other arts.

2) Sparring during training. Extensive periods of live grappling during every class was the norm. You learn stuff doing a lot of sparring.

3) Stealing everything useful they could find from every other art they encountered. This included Judo, Sambo, Freestyle wrestling, catch wrestling, and Lutre Livre. (Technically Lutre Livre is just Portuguese for catch wrestling, but it did have a bit of separate evolution in Brazil just like BJJ did.) In the early days, some of the more self-promoting Gracie family members like Helio pretended that these innovations all came from within the family, but these days most BJJ instructors are happy to give credit when they pass on knowledge they’ve picked up from other systems.

So, TLDR, BJJ started from a foundation of basic Judo, picked up additional methods from other arts (including more Judo), and evolved in a separate direction from related styles based on a heavy focus on newaza and a tradition of challenge matches against other styles.

I know I have your mailing address somewhere, but I'll be damned if I can find it. P.M it to me and I'll send you a book I think you'll enjoy.

 

[gerardfoy50]

Are there documents of the X-guard, Rubber-guard, De La Riva-guard, Iminari roll, Berimbolo? My gym is owned by a family line of Judokas. They were all Judokas until the Gracies stormed their dojo and beat them all and made converts.

Bjj vs judo on a mat, different from in the street, I’d rather have judo, also did you see the video of Rhonda rousey in a bjj tournament, took her 5 seconds to wipe her opponent out

 

[gerardfoy50]

That's exactly why if I were to go to any school, it would be BJJ. In this age, one has to constantly improve. When Royce Gracie got his butt handed to him by Matt Huges, I bet they don't talk trash or making excuses, but look inwards and see what can they improve with newer stuffs.

Now with videos, MA is like any other sports, you study others, come up with solution, new moves to get ahead, not stuck with what was being taught from hundreds of years ago.

Look inwards or get baseballs bats and attack the wrestler who beat you from behind 3 against one. Even though he fought with all the rules you put in place to give yourself an advantage, very honourable

 

[Oily Dragon]

Are there documents of the X-guard, Rubber-guard, De La Riva-guard, Iminari roll, Berimbolo? My gym is owned by a family line of Judokas. They were all Judokas until the Gracies stormed their dojo and beat them all and made converts.

The Bubushi is probably the best example of an Asian system for categorizing ancient grappling techniques, its contents informed everything from Karate, Judo, etc.

There are so many modern versions, but in most cases I've seen the illustrations fit what modern people call grapplin'.

As far as those guards you mentioned, like most people say nothing new under the sun. They're not inventions, but someone in BJJ was smart enough to label them with names and teach them, for certain situations.

Let's face it, some of the BJJ guards would never be a good idea off a training mat. Some positions are only useful in a non-striking competitive environment.

 

[Alan0354]

Strength is important in any grappling art or combat sport, but no, succeeding in a Judo throw is not a matter of the stronger person winning a tug of war. It might have seemed that way to you as a beginning student who hadn't yet learned the nuances of setups, gripping, kuzushi, angles, timing, sensitivity, combinations, and so on. But no one gets very far in Judo competition by just matching strength directly against strength.

Of cause, strength is not everything, but strength helps a lot. One can get away with much less skill with strength.

Whereupon a good judoka switches from pulling you forward to throwing you backward with a move like ko uchi gari or o uchi gari, using your resistance against you.

I am talking the person already have training on other stuffs, just learn a few months of Judo. When the judo guy pull in first and start turning, his back will be exposed. That split second will give the opponent time to go for a head lock already. Of cause if the judo guy is much much better then he likely win. I am talking about the two people are comparable.

Main thing in judo is pull the opponent in and turn and throw, that to me has holes.

Speaking as a BJJ instructor who has been practicing BJJ for over 22 years, it really isn't. BJJ is more advanced than Judo at certain aspects of grappling. Judo is more advanced than BJJ at certain other aspects of grappling. Each art contains an immense wealth of highly refined, highly effective techniques, tactics, and principles.

Of cause, like I said, it's a constant improvement at this space age. BJJ cannot sit back and relax. It had a very good start, just keep on improving.