Iraqi Prisoners Abused, Humiliated, Tortured.

[Tgace]

This is true. I'm sorry I seem to have rushed to post. :asian:

But then are you implying that the Geneva Convention was a joke, or are you saying that there will be screw-ups in the system?

No...no more than I would say our justice system is a joke. But organizations are made up of people, with human flaws. As long as the "system" deals with the wrongdoers and the organization holds up a high standard. I dont think there is much more you can ask for.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

No you're post is one of demagogery. Aint gonna work here and neither are your ridiculous commands.

<snip>

More teenage semantics- I see you are just barely out of your teens- no wonder What a bunch of blather... I know I know you are just a product of your environment... that is why you need a stick, cause you are a whimp!!!

Well, he may be the first teenaged investment banker in the history of the world. At age 26, I don't think he quite qualifies as being "just barely out of" his teens.

Rainman, I believe your posts are the most inflammatory (and poorly written) I've ever seen on this forum. You called Paul a "whimp" (sic) for being an Escrimador...I'm sure that REALLY flys with all of us that do FMA. You insulted him for his age, and inappropriatly, as it turns out. You later make fun of the shape of Heretic's head, saying he took off a dunce cap and his head retained the conical shape. Both of these guys are extremely bright, and their posts have been some of the best on Martialtalk.

Are the Mods catching this?

If you can't handle an argument, if you can't debate cogently...just go somewhere else. Vent by hitting a pillow or something. These online tantrums you're having make you look absolutely ridiculous. You come off with all the dignity and intellect of a seventh grader.

-----
On to topic...

Insofar as the U.S. having committed atrocities like these in every war, that is quite true. It is also totally irrelevant. There is no way we can justify present conduct by pointing to examples of past transgressions...acts which at the time were rightfully condemned and placed in our history books as a stain upon our national honor.

Nor can we point to the behavior of the enemy and say, "Hey, THEY'RE doing it", and use that as a rationale for our brutality. This is cretinish at best.

We're supposed to be above that. We're supposed to be the good guys.

If we look at Presidential inaugural addresses from three Republican Presidents, we find statements that identify Americans and America as a people and a nation that should be an example to all the world.

"America today is a proud, free nation, decent and civil, a place we cannot help but love....America is never wholly herself unless she is engaged in high moral principle. We as a people have such a purpose today. It is to make kinder the face of the Nation and gentler the face of the world. "
---George Herbert Walker Bush

"Freedom is one of the deepest and noblest aspirations of the human spirit. People, worldwide, hunger for the right of self-determination, for those inalienable rights that make for human dignity and progress."
---Ronald Wilson Reagan

"Today, we affirm a new commitment to live out our nation's promise through civility, courage, compassion and character. America, at its best, matches a commitment to principle with a concern for civility. A civil society demands from each of us good will and respect, fair dealing and forgiveness...Americans are generous and strong and decent, not because we believe in ourselves, but because we hold beliefs beyond ourselves."
---George Walker Bush

Rhetoric like this becomes jingoistic and hollow if our behavior does not measure up to the expectations set by these words. We look like a nation of hypocrites when our leaders espouse these ideals, and then their administrations savage the principles we've been exhorted to follow.

We can not wear a white hat and act like Black Bart.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Feisty Mouse]

You called Paul a "whimp" (sic) for being an Escrimador...I'm sure that REALLY flys with all of us that do FMA.

Thank you, hardheadjarhead, for mentioning that among other things. I was a bit too livid to say anything calmly about insulting FMA in a political debate.

And good post otherwise, too. I just picked up on that in particular.

 

[MisterMike]

Donald Rumsfeld should be tried as a War Criminal for ordering and authorizing the detention of an Iraqi national without informing the International Red Cross.

Oh puh-lease. Now we answer to them first, before protecting our troops and citizens?

On a side note, I think torture should be allowed and performed routinely to get information that saves American lives. (Not so you can take pictures and send them to your friends)

Enough "rules" already. This is war.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, Michael, all I can tell you is that the idea of, "necessary," torture is a violation of every single moral tenet they taught me, back in traditional America, back in Bible school, back in what you consistently consider to be the good old days. Funny how, in the new, more-modern, more-practical America, those traditional values go right out the window.

Of course, none of this crap--or the mass detentions, or the denials of basic rights, or the illegal and un-Constitutional arrests of American citizens, seemed to be necessary in the first Gulf War--quite the contrary. Even in our two world wars, people weren't taken away, denied any due process, and hidden in some dark nook for six months to a year. The process went forward, the courts stuck it to 'em. And just yesterday, that bozo Rumsfield came out with another song-and-dance about some Iraqi official kept locked up, no geneva Convention rights necessary, "because the CIA asked us to."

But that won't matter. So here's a thought: have you ever wondered how terrorists, or suicide hijaackers, or Al Quaida murderers and torturers, justify themselves to themselves? I mean, what what do they say to themselves, to legitimate the misery aand death they inflict?

I'll bet you a shiny nickle that they dress it up, yakking about, "necessity," and, "justice," and, "wartime rules," and "protecting our way of life." I'll bet you that they back this nonsense up with lots of references to religion, and a fair dash of racist language.

And how do we legitimate this stuff in our country? Hm...but of course, we're the good guys.

Incidentally, I noticed that there were some very disturbing justifications for torture, illegal detention, etc., coming out in mags like, "Newsweek," BEFORE any of the news got out. Hm, again.

 

[MisterMike]

Well, Michael, all I can tell you is that the idea of, "necessary," torture is a violation of every single moral tenet they taught me, back in traditional America, back in Bible school, back in what you consistently consider to be the good old days. Funny how, in the new, more-modern, more-practical America, those traditional values go right out the window.

To me it is not a violation of morals if it is the only way to get information that will stop Americans from being killed. A top al Queada yelling for a couple hours is worth a plane full of people. It's a dirty job but....

Of course, none of this crap--or the mass detentions, or the denials of basic rights, or the illegal and un-Constitutional arrests of American citizens, seemed to be necessary in the first Gulf War--quite the contrary. Even in our two world wars, people weren't taken away, denied any due process, and hidden in some dark nook for six months to a year. The process went forward, the courts stuck it to 'em. And just yesterday, that bozo Rumsfield came out with another song-and-dance about some Iraqi official kept locked up, no geneva Convention rights necessary, "because the CIA asked us to."

The reason for detentions is that these guys dont wear uniforms. You don't know who's going to lob a grenade in front of an Iraqi police station. Ya gotta play a little tougher now, and their tactics show how the outdatedness of the Geneva convention.

But that won't matter. So here's a thought: have you ever wondered how terrorists, or suicide hijaackers, or Al Quaida murderers and torturers, justify themselves to themselves? I mean, what what do they say to themselves, to legitimate the misery aand death they inflict?

Yes, it's "religious."

I'll bet you a shiny nickle that they dress it up, yakking about, "necessity," and, "justice," and, "wartime rules," and "protecting our way of life." I'll bet you that they back this nonsense up with lots of references to religion, and a fair dash of racist language.

And how do we legitimate this stuff in our country? Hm...but of course, we're the good guys.

Incidentally, I noticed that there were some very disturbing justifications for torture, illegal detention, etc., coming out in mags like, "Newsweek," BEFORE any of the news got out. Hm, again.

That's right. We are the good guys. We didn't turn planes full of innocents into missles. Notwithstanding we certainly have pissed off a lot of people with our present and past international policies, you just don't turn around and kill civilians. But at this point we're losing the point of my last post so I'll stop...

 

[hardheadjarhead]

On a side note, I think torture should be allowed and performed routinely to get information that saves American lives. (Not so you can take pictures and send them to your friends)

Enough "rules" already. This is war.

Run that by anybody in the chain of command from Bush on down and see what kind of response you'd get. The Taguba report cited these as "sadistic, blatant, and wanton abuses." How come the Army doesn't agree with you, Mike? Rumsfeld and the President don't seem to either.

Abu Ghraib wasn't about saving lives. It was a bunch of ignorant hill jacks from West Virginia lowering themselves to the intellectual level of an amoeba so they could have a good ol' time. Their defense is that M.I. ordered them to do these things. I doubt it.

The vast majority of those prisoners in Abu Ghraib were civilians, including women and teenagers. The 70 year old woman that they forced to wear a harness before riding her around and calling her a "donkey"...do you think she truly had any information that was of value to M.I.? How about the women they raped? Was that part of the military intel process?

The teenage boy that was sodomized by a male guard...what information do you think he came up with that was of value? How do you reconcile this anal rape of a youngster given your previously expressed homophobia elsewhere in this forum?

How does THIS work into the operational intelligence plan, Mike?

"Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee."

They kicked one man's broken leg and made him denounce his religion and praise Jesus. They forced a boy and his father to strip in front of each other...a humiliation in Genesis for Ham and Noah as it was for this child and his father.

WHAT DID THIS DO FOR AMERICA?

Be careful here, Mike. When things aren't easily broken down into simple, dualistic black/white perspectives you seem to get a might frustrated. You then back out of the thread rather than making an attempt at reasoned debate, which seems a bit beyond you.



Regards,


Steve

 

[MisterMike]

Steve,

Read my post.

(Not so you can take pictures and send them to your friends)

It should be used with a lot of discretion. Don't take all that other crap out on me. You don't go home and kick the dog for a bad day at work do ya?

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I did read the post, Mike...and you wrote this at the end of it.

Enough "rules" already. This is war.

I've been reading crap like this every week in our local newspaper's "letters to the editor", and answering with letters of the same intensity as expressed here. Obviously, this strikes a nerve with me.

Discarding the rules of war goes against everything I ever learned growing up and while serving in the military. There ARE rules governing war. We subscribe to them as a nation. Simple decency dictates that we give them due consideration.

As far as "kicking the dog", when the dog snaps and gets underfoot, it just might need kicking. Your post was at best flippant. The topic hardly merits that.



Regards,


Steve

 

[MisterMike]

I did read the post, Mike...and you wrote this at the end of it.

I've been reading crap like this every week in our local newspaper's "letters to the editor", and answering with letters of the same intensity as expressed here. Obviously, this strikes a nerve with me.

Discarding the rules of war goes against everything I ever learned growing up and while serving in the military. There ARE rules governing war. We subscribe to them as a nation. Simple decency dictates that we give them due consideration.

As far as "kicking the dog", when the dog snaps and gets underfoot, it just might need kicking. Your post was at best flippant. The topic hardly merits that.



Regards,


Steve

And I've been reading "crap" like yours long before I joined MT. Things that strike a nerve with me are how many people give aid and comfort to the enemy. As someone from the military, you of all people should appreciate that.

As for flippant, I see more disrespect from your posts than mine. If you'd like to converse with me, please show the same courtesy. If I drop off a thread, you now know why.

 

[Cruentus]

Their defense is that M.I. ordered them to do these things. I doubt it.

I agree with almost everything you said, steve, but I gotta make a point about this.

Wall Street Journal (last week?) covered a story that talked about memo's and documents exchanged by members of our administration. The gist was that they had arranged the legal arguements and defense in 2002 to protect the President and his cabnet, saying that under certian circumstances, like "terrorism," we do not have to abide by the geneva convention. There has been a lot written about M.I. basically saying to a bunch of ignorant ameba's (who may have been put there for a reason) "do you worst to break them down," regardless of Geneva Convention rules.

I am not saying that I know the answer, or how "high" this thing went, but I can say that in this day in age, it isn't that far fetched to believe that this may have been an order that came from a much higher place then the prison guards themselves.

And as to some of you who justify this stuff by basically saying "this is war, big F-in deal." The difference is that when our soldiers have been guilty of war crimes in the past, these crimes were done by a very few, and there was no evidence that there was anything "Top Down" about the order. In this case, even though there was supposedly only a few soldiers involved, there are over 1800 photo's that have not been released to the public and press that are "far more horrific then what has been made public" according to Republican and Democratic Senators, and there is evidence that this order goes possibly as high up as the President and Rumsfield. This is quite a different situation, it seems, then just a few rouge soldiers breaking the rules.

 

[Cruentus]

Well, he may be the first teenaged investment banker in the history of the world. At age 26, I don't think he quite qualifies as being "just barely out of" his teens.

Rainman, I believe your posts are the most inflammatory (and poorly written) I've ever seen on this forum. You called Paul a "whimp" (sic) for being an Escrimador...I'm sure that REALLY flys with all of us that do FMA. You insulted him for his age, and inappropriatly, as it turns out. You later make fun of the shape of Heretic's head, saying he took off a dunce cap and his head retained the conical shape. Both of these guys are extremely bright, and their posts have been some of the best on Martialtalk.

Are the Mods catching this?

If you can't handle an argument, if you can't debate cogently...just go somewhere else. Vent by hitting a pillow or something. These online tantrums you're having make you look absolutely ridiculous. You come off with all the dignity and intellect of a seventh grader.

Thank you very much for mentioning this, Steve. I didn't take Rainman's post very seriously, as I figure that he has nothing of value to offer if all he can do is character assasinate me instead of making a point.

Which is a shame for him. I'd like to think that we're all friends here (as far as we can be from internet conversations, anyways), even if we don't always agree with each other.

:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Robert said this in a longer post:

So here's a thought: have you ever wondered how terrorists, or suicide hijaackers, or Al Quaida murderers and torturers, justify themselves to themselves? I mean, what what do they say to themselves, to legitimate the misery aand death they inflict?

I'll bet you a shiny nickle that they dress it up, yakking about, "necessity," and, "justice," and, "wartime rules," and "protecting our way of life." I'll bet you that they back this nonsense up with lots of references to religion, and a fair dash of racist language.

I think that he makes a very compelling point here, whether you love or hate him, or agree or disagree with him. It's worth seperating, and giving a second thought.

:asian:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

And I've been reading "crap" like yours long before I joined MT. Things that strike a nerve with me are how many people give aid and comfort to the enemy. As someone from the military, you of all people should appreciate that.

As for flippant, I see more disrespect from your posts than mine. If you'd like to converse with me, please show the same courtesy. If I drop off a thread, you now know why.

Mike,

You fire off your shots, and you leave. I have never, NEVER seen you sustain a debate on this forum with anyone who could hold their own. When the going gets tough...you book. THAT'S why you drop off of threads.

When you hear the pitter patter of little feet, its Mister Mike in full retreat.

Aid and comfort to the enemy? I pointed out one of your icons did that on another thread that you subscribed to. You didn't answer it. The going got too tough for you, hmmm?

We see this time and again...you snipe, you prod, you poke, and then fail to follow up.

---------

Paul...you may be right. The source of the abuse might have gone higher. Still, given that many of the victims had no information of any use to M.I....like the 70 year old woman and the fifteen year old boy...it makes one wonder just what in the Hell they were thinking they'd accomplish from all of this.



Regards,


Steve

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Don't take all that other crap out on me. You don't go home and kick the dog for a bad day at work do ya?

I didn't see that as taking crap out on you. I saw it as hhjh calling you on things you said.

Why try to play for pity and being kicked like a dog when you seem to have absolutely no pity or sense of "rules" for war or taking prisoners? You have shown that you have no pity for people who (depending on your opinion) may or have been or were abused in prision who were, at best, unlikely prisoners of war.

A call for pity after absolutely pitiless statements is ridiculous.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Are the Mods catching this?

No. If anyone sees a problem such as those referenced here, please hit the "Report to Mod" link. We can not, and do not read everything on the board.

Thanks

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Then if you didn't see it, how were you able to answer?

Just kidding. Thanks for the info. I'll remember that next time.

Does your signature say in Latin what I think it does?


Regards,


Steve

 

[MisterMike]

Mike,

You fire off your shots, and you leave. I have never, NEVER seen you sustain a debate on this forum with anyone who could hold their own. When the going gets tough...you book. THAT'S why you drop off of threads.

When you hear the pitter patter of little feet, its Mister Mike in full retreat.

Aid and comfort to the enemy? I pointed out one of your icons did that on another thread that you subscribed to. You didn't answer it. The going got too tough for you, hmmm?

We see this time and again...you snipe, you prod, you poke, and then fail to follow up.

Well look a little harder if you've "never" seen me stay on a thread. Of course you won't because now you've obviously resorted to attacking me with your own version of my debate style rather than reality, as is typical.

There's no need to retreat after posting one's opinions, which is all I've done on this thread. If you're too insecure to let them be posted without coming after someone with insults, you've got bigger issues.

Lastly you don't know jack about my "icons" and who they may be so I'll let the last little stab go as your own wishful thinking.

 

[MisterMike]

I didn't see that as taking crap out on you. I saw it as hhjh calling you on things you said.

Why try to play for pity and being kicked like a dog when you seem to have absolutely no pity or sense of "rules" for war or taking prisoners? You have shown that you have no pity for people who (depending on your opinion) may or have been or were abused in prision who were, at best, unlikely prisoners of war.

A call for pity after absolutely pitiless statements is ridiculous.

In no way did I say what happened at Abu Ghraib was tolerable. And that is all HHJH replied with, as if to say, well you must be for this too.

MY comment stemmed from detaining an Iraqi and not telling the Red Cross, not the prison scandal. So they reflected the possibility of torturing this guy if they think he knows something.

When I got this backlash about the prison and rediculous questions of how plunging people with broom handles helped America, it was obvious this guy just has it out for me. Not good for serious discussion, eh?

 

[michaeledward]

Does your signature say in Latin what I think it does?

It has been decades ... but I think it says

"I came, I saw, I castrated the bastards."