Iraqi Prisoners Abused, Humiliated, Tortured.

Tulisan said:
The stupidity of people will never cease to amaze me. Here are a couple of things.

#1. For those of you who keep saying that "them Muslims aren't in objection to acts of terrorism" need to realize that all them "rag heads" aren't the same. Just like there are distinctly different versions of Christianity with some involving violence (like KKK and neo-nazi groups), there is the same diversity in the Muslim world. The only thing that we see from our "liberal media" is the fundamentalist rallies and parades. Yes, there sure seems to be a lot of muslim fundamentalists, however, if the roles were reversed and the U.S. was the third world, and the middle east was the unilateral power who fixed trade laws, and treated us "Christians" as lesser people, then you would see the violent forms of christianity marching in the streets all the same.
But the fact is, not all christians would agree with the violent forms.

This is true in the Muslim world. There many Muslims both in and outside of the middle east who are horrified by ther actions of Muslim fundamentalists, and who are in objection to acts of terrorism. MichealEdward posted a few links to Arabic media to support this fact in this thread, if you look back.

So, quit saying statements like "You don't see an outcry for bla-blah-bla in the "Muslim" world" because it only makes you look racist and ignorant.

#2. On to the torture...for those of you who argue that "they," meaning the thousands of prisoners, needed to be tortured by us because "they" had valuable information to prevent terrorism, stop it. Out of all the prisoners, there may have been only a handful of them who knew anything. That doesn't excuse the now 1800 photo's detailing prison abuse that have been confiscated to date. Most of the people tortured in our prisons were not "terrorists", or anyone with military intelligence, but were just regular ol' Iraqi soldiers. So when you argue this way, you look retarded.

#3 Stop using the arguement that "because other countries might torture 'us' worse, then it must be o.k. for us to torture in the manner that we did." You all know that your mamma's taught you that "2 wrongs don't make a right" the same as mine.

#4 Stop saying that the torture wasn't a top down order when we have endless proof that M.I. told the guards to break these men down. This arguement is about as logical as trying to argue that the world is flat.

#5 And stop saying that IF you are upset at the way we handle foriegn policy, or upset with people in power, or upset with silly little things like "torture" at our own hands, that you are somehow, "putting other countries before our own military and citizens." If I am upset at the way my government handles something, it doesn't mean that I must support the terrorists. This is not a logical arguement.

O.K.....now that that's settled....proceed.... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

No you're post is one of demagogery. Aint gonna work here and neither are your ridiculous commands.

#1. For those of you who keep saying that "them Muslims aren't in objection to acts of terrorism" need to realize that all them "rag heads" aren't the same. Just like there are distinctly different versions of Christianity with some involving violence (like KKK and neo-nazi groups), there is the same diversity in the Muslim world. The only thing that we see from our "liberal media" is the fundamentalist rallies and parades. Yes, there sure seems to be a lot of muslim fundamentalists, however, if the roles were reversed and the U.S. was the third world, and the middle east was the unilateral power who fixed trade laws, and treated us "Christians" as lesser people, then you would see the violent forms of christianity marching in the streets all the same.
But the fact is, not all christians would agree with the violent forms

This is the most assinine comment I have ever seen. Islam is very similar to chrisitianity... I am neither and have zero respect for either. Both faiths say not to murder thy brother... Is a commandment. DO NOT DO THIS SAYS GOD!!! HERE IS ANOTHER ONE FOR SCREWBALLS IN YOUR FAITH... DO NOT MOLEST CHILDREN-- I am with Marxx on that one - Religion is the oppiate of the masses... I can tell what you've been smokin'. NO CHRISTIONS OR MUSLIMS CAN AGREE TO VIOLENCE, IT IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE BIBLE AND KORAN SAYS. They both have the same tenents- I know I had a lengthy discussion with a prof (who was a shiite) about the 2 doctrines. If you are going to call yourself a christian, muslim, catholic, then follow the doctrine you so praise. Fundamentalist? Oh please!! Lunatics like you on parade is closer to the truth.

So, quit saying statements like "You don't see an outcry for bla-blah-bla in the "Muslim" world" because it only makes you look racist and ignorant.

More teenage semantics- I see you are just barely out of your teens- no wonder :rolleyes: What a bunch of blather... I know I know you are just a product of your environment... that is why you need a stick, cause you are a whimp!!!
 
I am with Marxx on that one - Religion is the oppiate of the masses... I can tell what you've been smokin'.
Click to expand...

People make these claims regularly. At least in some circles.

Ultimately, though, it matters not. Replacing your concrete-literal, ethnocentric thinking with secular content instead of religious content doesn't actually change the substance of the thinking. Lenin and Stalin showed us this fact in ready abundance, as do many of the "democratic revolutionaries" the world over.

An atheistic bigot is still a bigot. Its not the religion per se that is the problem, it is the lack of world-centric, global thinking that is the problem. Some religious thinking is very global and world-centric in orientation -- including several sects of Christianity, Buddhism, and yes Islam.

More teenage semantics- I see you are just barely out of your teens- no wonder What a bunch of blather... I know I know you are just a product of your environment... that is why you need a stick, cause you are a whimp!!!
Click to expand...

Given the content of your last post, I'd be careful about whose thought processes I'd accuse of being adolescent.

Laterz.
 
heretic888 said:
People make these claims regularly. At least in some circles.

Ultimately, though, it matters not. Replacing your concrete-literal, ethnocentric thinking with secular content instead of religious content doesn't actually change the substance of the thinking. Lenin and Stalin showed us this fact in ready abundance, as do many of the "democratic revolutionaries" the world over.

An atheistic bigot is still a bigot. Its not the religion per se that is the problem, it is the lack of world-centric, global thinking that is the problem. Some religious thinking is very global and world-centric in orientation -- including several sects of Christianity, Buddhism, and yes Islam.



Given the content of your last post, I'd be careful about whose thought processes I'd accuse of being adolescent.

Laterz.
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Ding thankyou for playing-

1. I am not an athiest. I can read and interpret as well as any preacher. What does thou shalt not kill mean to you? C'mon Bill Clinton redefine what sex is while you are at it.

2. Yeah and you are one of the wise and all knowing sorts- You would have had a point but you took the dunce cap off and your head was still conical. Careful of what you freakin boob? Religion and politics always end up in hysterical rants- No one is nice when politics and religion are discussed- It goes down to peoples core beliefs... when I get better information I adjust my beleifs.
 
Rainman said:
Ding thankyou for playing-

1. I am not an athiest. I can read and interpret as well as any preacher. What does thou shalt not kill mean to you? C'mon Bill Clinton redefine what sex is while you are at it.

2. Yeah and you are one of the wise and all knowing sorts- You would have had a point but you took the dunce cap off and your head was still conical. Careful of what you freakin boob? Religion and politics always end up in hysterical rants- No one is nice when politics and religion are discussed- It goes down to peoples core beliefs... when I get better information I adjust my beleifs.
Click to expand...

No Disrespect, I thought I read, and cannot remember where, so I admit this is shaky, that one of the translation was actually "Thou Shall Not Murder". Nothing was said about killing animals for food or plants for food or animals for self defense. (* You could include humans in the animal section as long as you consider self defense. *)

I am Not trying to change people's points of views or opinions.

I just tought some of those with more resources could either confirm or deny the statement, or point me to a resource, either hard copy or on the net.

Thank You
:asian:
 
Rich Parsons said:
So then I really do not like to ask the following question(s).

Why did so many people feel comfortable with this type of behavior?

Mob Mentality?

Implicit orders? And willingness to please or revenge for 9/11?

Or is it more of an issue that those involved were not trained enough to know they had another course of action?

Either way, I still do not like it :(
Click to expand...
None of us were there so none of this is anything more than opinion but I would say all of the above, but I wouldn't use the term 'mob mentallity' for this as much as peer pressure. I don't like it either, as I have said. I just don't think that it is something that was laid out in a grand scheme as much as it was sloppiness and speed leading to poor directions and poor judgement.
 
Rich Parsons said:
No Disrespect, I thought I read, and cannot remember where, so I admit this is shaky, that one of the translation was actually "Thou Shall Not Murder". Nothing was said about killing animals for food or plants for food or animals for self defense. (* You could include humans in the animal section as long as you consider self defense. *)

I am Not trying to change people's points of views or opinions.

I just tought some of those with more resources could either confirm or deny the statement, or point me to a resource, either hard copy or on the net.

Thank You
:asian:
Click to expand...

It's not 'one of the translation', it's the correct translation. the Hebrew word used translates to murder. Seeing as later in the Torah there are some pretty explicit instructions for the conduct of war, and the death penalty, a prohibition on killing would be sort of self-deafeating.

Jewish translation of those verses : http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=2&CHAPTER=20#P2
 
Has anybody here seen the real beheading of the American Journalist? Torture, humiliation and abuse are all part of what makes a war, a war. Innocents and civilians are always killed, well almost always. I'm afraid that we wont here konw half of what does on out there. There will be torturing of our soliders and we will be torturing their fanatics. I'm afraid this is reality in its coldest most harsh atmosphere. What I wish however was that the American Army was more like the British Army. The British Army is the most professional and best trained army in the world. I'm sorry and I dont mean to offend you if you are American but the physcology generally of the American Army is very gun ho, hence the death of one of your atheletes recently when he thought his convoy could 'handle' the situation, they RPG'd the vehicles shot and burnt him and his men. The pictures of British troops torturing Iraq's have all found to be hoax's but doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
 
Rainman said:
No you're post is one of demagogery. Aint gonna work here and neither are your ridiculous commands.

#1. For those of you who keep saying that "them Muslims aren't in objection to acts of terrorism" need to realize that all them "rag heads" aren't the same. Just like there are distinctly different versions of Christianity with some involving violence (like KKK and neo-nazi groups), there is the same diversity in the Muslim world. The only thing that we see from our "liberal media" is the fundamentalist rallies and parades. Yes, there sure seems to be a lot of muslim fundamentalists, however, if the roles were reversed and the U.S. was the third world, and the middle east was the unilateral power who fixed trade laws, and treated us "Christians" as lesser people, then you would see the violent forms of christianity marching in the streets all the same.
But the fact is, not all christians would agree with the violent forms

This is the most assinine comment I have ever seen. Islam is very similar to chrisitianity... I am neither and have zero respect for either. Both faiths say not to murder thy brother... Is a commandment. DO NOT DO THIS SAYS GOD!!! HERE IS ANOTHER ONE FOR SCREWBALLS IN YOUR FAITH... DO NOT MOLEST CHILDREN-- I am with Marxx on that one - Religion is the oppiate of the masses... I can tell what you've been smokin'. NO CHRISTIONS OR MUSLIMS CAN AGREE TO VIOLENCE, IT IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT THE BIBLE AND KORAN SAYS. They both have the same tenents- I know I had a lengthy discussion with a prof (who was a shiite) about the 2 doctrines. If you are going to call yourself a christian, muslim, catholic, then follow the doctrine you so praise. Fundamentalist? Oh please!! Lunatics like you on parade is closer to the truth.

So, quit saying statements like "You don't see an outcry for bla-blah-bla in the "Muslim" world" because it only makes you look racist and ignorant.

More teenage semantics- I see you are just barely out of your teens- no wonder :rolleyes: What a bunch of blather... I know I know you are just a product of your environment... that is why you need a stick, cause you are a whimp!!!
Click to expand...

Hey, I was just called a demigog, assinine, lunitic, "teenaged," and a "whimp," while also being attacked for my "child molesting" faith.

Neato....I must have said something right. :rolleyes:
 
I am not an athiest.
Click to expand...

I never claimed you were. I merely said changing the content of thinking does not change the substance of thinking, as you so erroneously implied.

And, unlike you, I actually provided historical examples of this (with two Marxists, no less: Lenin and Stalin). You have yet to provide proof for the rather inane statement that "all religion is bad" --- then again, given the rather adolescent basis for such claims, I doubt you could.

What does thou shalt not kill mean to you? C'mon Bill Clinton redefine what sex is while you are at it.
Click to expand...

This is just silly.

Now, you're implying that every religious individual is somehow a hypocrite or, worse, a murderer. Its funny, because I would consider your 'intellectual' position as being pretty damn religious in substance to me.

The simple historical truth is: religious fanatics murder, secular fanatics murder --- thusly, it has very little (if anything) to do with the actual content of their beliefs, as opposed to the substance of their beliefs.

It is the fanaticism, the zealotry, the sociocentrism, and ethnocentrism; the willingness to sacrifice others in the name of one's "beliefs" or "order"; the inability to treat others of different nationality, belief, race, sexual orientation, gender, or whatnot as "equal" or, at the very least, "human". It is the concrete-literal and "blind faith" reliance on My People/Country/Religion, right or wrong.

This has nothing to do with religion per se (although many religions have historically manifested this behavior), it has to do with the type of thinking demonstrated above.

Yeah and you are one of the wise and all knowing sorts- You would have had a point but you took the dunce cap off and your head was still conical. Careful of what you freakin boob?
Click to expand...

I'm sure there's a point somewhere hidden between all the viscious personal attacks ... but I just can't seem to find it. :rolleyes:

Religion and politics always end up in hysterical rants- No one is nice when politics and religion are discussed- It goes down to peoples core beliefs... when I get better information I adjust my beleifs.
Click to expand...

Ummm.... you realized you just supported my viewpoint, right? :uhyeah:

Yes, religion and politics (among other things) tend to end up in irrational, hysterical rants. Thus, it has nothing to do strictly with religion per se --- but with the substance and level of thinking usually associated with religion. Obviously, this type of thinking can manifest in a number of activities, politics included. Why?? Because it is a type of thinking and not a particular subject.

Laterz.
 
"U.S. says it will continue to hold thousands of Iraqi prisoners after June 30"

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/06/13/world/iraqprisoners040613

Himmmm. SO "the war" is over eh? June 30th we're pulling out huh? I guess thats why I have friends over there not scheduled to come back for another year. I guess that is why there are talks of re-instituting the draft.

I wonder if we'll get another aircraft landing with a "mission accomplished" sign for this one. I am sure we'll get the equivalent. :rolleyes:
 
What do you mean, 'They do not think like we do'? .. Do they think with their liver?
Statements like these tend to be part of the 'dehumanization' process that allows people to kill someone else with enduring difficulties.
Click to expand...
I think that (and I realize here I'm leaving out a huge part of the discussion) one of the things we sometimes forget is that often torture, and I think in particular what happened with the Iraqi prisoners, does not have to stem from thinking in a particular way, or *hating* the prisoners.

A "dehumaization" process occurs when any person or group of people are given what they perceive to be unlimited and complete control over other people.

Of course, hating the prisoners or what you believe they stand for, hating your job at the time, and what have you can all lead to more problems as well....

http://www.prisonexp.org/

This is a classic Psychology experiment, and may be useful for some of the discussions here, if anyone is interested.

That aside, I agree with the original post - the news of the abuse has harmed the US and our relations with others in almost innumerable ways. It was awful for it to have happened, and it's going to bite us (as a nation, politically) in the *** over and over.

Also, I apologize if this link has been posted already - I skimmed part of the thread.

ETA:

I am not an athiest. I can read and interpret as well as any preacher.
Click to expand...
Ha ha ha. Reading and "interpreting" (which you do in a pretty arrogant way) does not mean having faith in anything. It means literacy, hopefully thoughtfullness, and possibly nitpicking or misinterpretation.

It seems to me that in several threads some folks would like to make a statement about a religion or religions in general driving hatred, violence, what have you. Perhaps in the discussion on Islam some folks might find some thoughtful discussion on beliefs and the things people do.
 
Hasnt this stuff or even much worse happened in EVERY war?? Not that it makes it right, but people are acting like this is a new animal.
 
Hasnt this stuff or even much worse happened in EVERY war??
Click to expand...
I think 1) we're suppossed to be abiding by the Geneva Convention, and 2) but this time, *we're* the bad guys...

I think that's why it's such an important topic for discussion.

That, and just because something may happen frequently, doesn't mean it's right.
 
Well, In fairness he did say "not that it makes it right". and on #2 we (USA) have done stuff like this in every war. The execution of POW's on the battlefield, Mai Lai, beating intel out of people. Every war. Thats how war is. Our military attempts to place rules and "conventions" on Wartime actions much like our justice system attempts to use Law to keep civilians from committing rape, murder etc. It still happens. That this (so far) singular incident makes us the "bad guy" in totality is political maneuvering.
 
In fairness he did say "not that it makes it right". and on #2 we (USA) have done stuff like this in every war.
Click to expand...
This is true. I'm sorry I seem to have rushed to post. :asian:

But then are you implying that the Geneva Convention was a joke, or are you saying that there will be screw-ups in the system?
 
a couple of random thoughts:

I hope it is just a single incident, but I fear we are going to find a similar pattern of behavior throught our detention facilities.

Donald Rumsfeld should be tried as a War Criminal for ordering and authorizing the detention of an Iraqi national without informing the International Red Cross.

Didn't Kennedy get excoriated for stating the prison at Abu Ghraib just changed hands?

OK... thanks for letting me share.
 
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