Internal arts and grapplers

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I have a good amount of friends who practice BJJ and Judo.
Being a formal Jujutsu player I can handle myself well on the ground.
I posted before about rolling with a BJJ player and how that person tried to grab my arm but could not because of Silk reeling. I was having a conversation about Bagua and the BJJ practicer was saying how hard it was to shoot in due to the constant circle walking and spiral movement.

As Internal artist have you dealt with a grappler?

what principles from your internal art helped you the most?

Things that helped me were relaxing, rooting to help maintain balance, redirection of energy.

If you have not dealt with a grappler what principles do you think would help you the most.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Rooting is rooting whether standing up or laying down the principles work standing up or laying down.

I have not spared against a grappler or maybe I have, just not BJJ or MMA but Judo and Aikido, but it was years ago before I ever heard of MMA. Follow and relax, and circular movement seems to really mess things up for many of those styles. However I will say I got slammed REAL hard by a Woman that was an Aikido teacher, she did not seem to have as much of a problem is I followed she adapted locked me and threw me, I was VERY impressed by her skill.

I also talked with a guy once that was a long time Yang style practitioner that decided to go train MMA and he was having a blast. He said he was learning a lot about fighting and training that he had not previously been exposed to and the MMA guys were having equally as much fun because it was teaching them how to deal with someone that was so relaxed and fluid.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I agree with the relaxing part you can see that in the Chess game in grappling. I think push hands would be interesting from bottom guard or top guard to off set your opponent. I find this to be an interesting topic and show the internal arts in a different light.

 

[D Dempsey]

Internal arts are almost all predominately standing grappling based, so I'm not sure I really follow what you mean. Do you mean on the ground or stand-up? If you look at videos of chinese push-hands comps it almost looks like freestyle wrestling so I don't think you would need a specific grappling strategy.
The first time I learned double-legs, ankle-picks, pummeling, hip-throws and sprawling were in my xingyi, bagua, taiji class.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I am speaking more in the sense of takedowns, clinches, and ground work itself.

The idea of the thread was how internal arts principles can be used in these situations be it avoiding it or working with the concepts in order to defend oneself.

 

[D Dempsey]

I see. Ground work wise you would basically be re-inventing the wheel, as there are already styles that use internal principles on the ground like BJJ. Like I was saying before Taiji and Bagua are almost all wrestling anyway, so your strategy would probably be that off a grappler as that is what you are training essentially.

Here is a quote by Tim Cartmell about what Taiji is about:

[FONT=Papyrus,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Originally, the Taijiquan technical syllabus was primarily made up of throwing and standing grappling techniques. There were far less striking techniques and they were of secondary importance. There was no concept of "dim mak" or death touches. The heavy wrestling/grappling emphasis allowed Taijiquan fighters to spar full out, with little fear of infliciting serious injury. The skills developed made them formidable fighters. It's important to realize techniques that can be safely practiced live (throws and joint locks for example) can be used to cause serious injury when applied "for real" against opponents that are unprepared to be thrown and are thrown full force. Joint locks also become debilitating fight-enders when the one applying them does not stop when the receiver signals defeat.
[/FONT]

 

[D Dempsey]

Let me clarify a little bit here. My last post came out sounding bit harsh, and I apologize.
What I meant to say is that the internal principles are for the most part exactly the same as the principles used by good grapplers. Things like posture, alignment, breathing and relaxation are the same for both. Being that most internal arts have their roots in wrestling this is in no way surprising.
So in reality trying to use internal principles to your benefit against someone who does say judo, wouldn't really give you any leg-up as they are doing almost the exact same thing.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

D Dempsey,

No need to apologize as long as the conversation is constructive all is fair game. I agree with what your saying as far as similar principles between whatever said internal art vs said grappling art. I do not know your training background but I do not think many Internal stylist practice in a setting let alone roll with a grappler. In guard or mound position which is a very close quarter situation of course root, displacement and redirection of energy and other concepts are going to play a role in the grappling match. I do not see internal arts training in groundwork in a manner as Judo, Jujutsu and so on. However I think everyone can agree that the principle can work I am not debating that, So what principles would you use or have used grappling? :ultracool

 

[D Dempsey]

I see what your saying. The first IMA school I trained at taught Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji side by side with BJJ so I was a little spoiled. In all honesty you won't see IMA principles on the ground with Judo and wrestling, now standing up you will since that is the place they tend to be most comfortable. It is the opposite with BJJ. BJJ players tend to be kind of stiff standing up, but are incredibly relaxed on the ground.
The best bet is to try and find some wrestlers, which can be hard in an IMA class, and let them keep doing takedowns on you until you can stop them most of the time. This helped me a lot since I didn't have a wrestling background. I'm still not a takedown wizard, but I can usually stop someone from taking me down.

Have you ever read Robert Smith's Martial Musing? He actually goes into how similar Judo and chinese IMAs are. His book and getting to train briefly with Tim Cartmell completely changed my outlook on Taiji.

 

[DavidCC]

I agree with the relaxing part you can see that in the Chess game in grappling. I think push hands would be interesting from bottom guard or top guard to off set your opponent. I find this to be an interesting topic and show the internal arts in a different light.

I'm no sure how similar you might think this is to what you wrote... but might be interesting anyway.

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[D Dempsey]

That video was honestly a little silly. This is not me dogging on kenpo, but the person on the ground could have stood up or swept the person attacking him and any time.

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I think something like this might be a little more in line with what the OP was getting at. Its clips from a video by Tim Cartmell demonstrating how to properly apply IMA principles to stand-up grappling. Almost all the stand-up grappling shown here was taken from bagua so it has a slightly different look than something like judo.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Bagua I felt worked great against shooting or take downs. I also felt proper rooting really helped in take downs such as single leg take downs.
In double leg take downs rooting concept works well in sprawling.

I really can't comment on just BJJ stand up because those I trained with did Boxing or other standup.

For me again what I truly enjoy is angles I have always felt that moving at 45* and getting behind an opponent is a superior method of fighting as well as very easy to takedown from behind and get into the superior position of taking the back.

DavidCC's video shows I am guessing parrying I don't think it is pushhands good technique if you are caught like that!

I have read parts of Martial musing I think he and Don Draeger trained together and were friends.

 

[Selfcritical]

I have a good amount of friends who practice BJJ and Judo.
Being a formal Jujutsu player I can handle myself well on the ground.
I posted before about rolling with a BJJ player and how that person tried to grab my arm but could not because of Silk reeling. I was having a conversation about Bagua and the BJJ practicer was saying how hard it was to shoot in due to the constant circle walking and spiral movement.

As Internal artist have you dealt with a grappler?

what principles from your internal art helped you the most?

Things that helped me were relaxing, rooting to help maintain balance, redirection of energy.

If you have not dealt with a grappler what principles do you think would help you the most.

What are we defining as "grapplers" here? People who work on the ground? People who work for the takedown? If wrestling counts as grappling, I would say that the majority of internal arts practicioners I know ARE grapplers, at least as much as Judo or Shuiajao players are. Everyone's got the same basic centers of gravity, two arms and two legs, so there's only so much difference two arts that throw people can have from each other if they both work.

 

[Selfcritical]

I have a good amount of friends who practice BJJ and Judo.
Being a formal Jujutsu player I can handle myself well on the ground.
I posted before about rolling with a BJJ player and how that person tried to grab my arm but could not because of Silk reeling. I was having a conversation about Bagua and the BJJ practicer was saying how hard it was to shoot in due to the constant circle walking and spiral movement.

Does your friend have much wrestling experience outside of BJJ? If one is shooting properly, circular movement should cause problems in setting up the shoot, but not in executing it. The direction of force in a properly executed double is such that unless you've already removed your hips or stopped the motion(forearm stop or sprawl), you simply cannot yield to the force from side to side. You have to yield back and down, and when you do, ta-da- you have sprawled.

 

[Selfcritical]

I agree with the relaxing part you can see that in the Chess game in grappling. I think push hands would be interesting from bottom guard or top guard to off set your opponent. I find this to be an interesting topic and show the internal arts in a different light.

Push hands develops very similar attributes to Kuzushi(spelling?) drills in Judo or "Pummeling" in greco wrestling. I've found that TCC guys tend to have excellent sensitivity to feel locks coming, but not neccesarily better base or balance of their backs(different body mechanics)

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

What are we defining as "grapplers" here? People who work on the ground? People who work for the takedown? If wrestling counts as grappling, I would say that the majority of internal arts practicioners I know ARE grapplers, at least as much as Judo or Shuiajao players are. Everyone's got the same basic centers of gravity, two arms and two legs, so there's only so much difference two arts that throw people can have from each other if they both work.

Grappling in the sense of ground work. In the sense of mound positions from the ground. In all honesty you really do not see internal artist in guard on the ground as in BJJ.

Nope stright up BJJ. I agree with circle movement in making it harder in setting up a take down and I also agree with what you are saying in a double take down once it is applied by a skilled take down specialist.

 

[DavidCC]

That video was honestly a little silly. This is not me dogging on kenpo, but the person on the ground could have stood up or swept the person attacking him and any time.

It's a drill, defend the punches then trap the arm... of course anyone can go outside a drill and do whatever, not sure what your point is???

 

[jlhummel]

Hey, I've been reading all the comments and thought maybe I would put it my two cents. My back round is in grappling first in grade school, then high school, and then college. I have competed in Collegian style (Folk style now), free style and some Greco. I did some Judo in college (brown belt) along with various other martial arts along the way. So I think I can represent the grappler side of things pretty well. Just a couple comments. Lots of talk about circular motion: if you have grappling experience circular motion won’t stop a grappler from doing anything, be it take downs, double, single legs, picks or sweeps. A grappler will use it to set you up and take you down. And a judo practitioner will use circular motion to sweep you or to throw you. Any motion in itself is not a defense against a grappler or a judo user be it circular or forward or backwards. The main thing to remember with a wrestler or a judo opponent is that both of these styles are sports, so there are reactions and movements that are restricted by the rules of each sport. So they will dictate many of user’s reactions to what you are doing or using to defend yourself. Many Judo practitioners are very susceptible to leg take downs and as are Greco practitioners. They are just not trained to deal with them very well. Wrestlers will give you their back without even thinking about it and are suseptable to chokes and joint locks which arent allowed in wrestling matches. So what I am saying is what works well against one style might not work as well against say an Aikido opponent or another style. But the basics are usable in any grappling situation. Balance of movement, low center of gravity, inside wrist and arm control, getting your opponent to post a limb or to extend it to be locked or used as a lever. These are the things that all grappling have in common be it on the ground or on your feet.

 

[D Dempsey]

It's a drill, defend the punches then trap the arm... of course anyone can go outside a drill and do whatever, not sure what your point is???

With your explanation that makes a more sense. Thanks.

 

[Laoshi77]

I have studied Taijiquan for around ten years now and I occasionally have sparred with a Judo friend of mine and he rarely can apply any technique on me. As soon as he gets a chance I very quickly escape, like the proverbial snake, but seriously it might be because I'm naturally a wiry person however I think it's because of Taijiquan.
The key aspect with Taijiquan and other Internal arts is the elusiveness and effortless to every thing you do, well that's the way I look at it.