Internal arts and grapplers

[D Dempsey]

How often do you guys train like judo guys do? Judo and taijiquan are similar enough that if you trained in a similar manner you would of course be competitive with them.
Do you compete in Sanda / San Shou at all?

 

[Formosa Neijia]

I have studied Taijiquan for around ten years now and I occasionally have sparred with a Judo friend of mine and he rarely can apply any technique on me. As soon as he gets a chance I very quickly escape, like the proverbial snake, but seriously it might be because I'm naturally a wiry person however I think it's because of Taijiquan.
The key aspect with Taijiquan and other Internal arts is the elusiveness and effortless to every thing you do, well that's the way I look at it.

Just curious, but do you wear a gi when interacting with him? Many judoka are obviously used to having the gi. I'm finding that wearing it alters my taiji push hands techniques, which I wrongly assumed would transfer wholesale to judo. If you wear a gi, you may find that your friend gets more holds than you would think. And perhaps he should train no-gi sometimes.

 

[thedan]

That video was honestly a little silly. This is not me dogging on kenpo, but the person on the ground could have stood up or swept the person attacking him and any time.

Rooting is rooting whether standing up or laying down the principles work standing up or laying down.

It's a drill, defend the punches then trap the arm... of course anyone can go outside a drill and do whatever, not sure what your point is???

OK, look at that clip again. Watch the defenders feet, and then watch his body as it repositions on the ground. Then watch his arms. Now, think about principles aplying on the ground as well as on your feet, and consider another aspect that i hear very little about in taiji, but that I find in it (with my limmited experience) in abundance- structure.

Look at how the defender structures in the drill. As much as yielding, I think your structure defeats a grappler, on your feet or on the floor.

Also, look at what the defender does to the structure of the attacker.

I may be all wet here (I used to be what the SL-4 folks call a "motion Kenpoist"), and I am just learning the Yang 24 form right now so my understanding of taiji may be off too. But that is my take on that clip.

Dan C

 

[D Dempsey]

Look at how the defender structures in the drill. As much as yielding, I think your structure defeats a grappler, on your feet or on the floor.

Also, look at what the defender does to the structure of the attacker.

Structure is an essential element in all forms of grappling including Taiji. If your structure is poor you will not be able to grapple at all, so really good structure beats pretty much everything and not just grappling.

 

[thedan]

Structure is an essential element in all forms of grappling including Taiji. If your structure is poor you will not be able to grapple at all, so really good structure beats pretty much everything and not just grappling.

Mr. Dempsey, I'd have to agree with that, since I see structure as essential in ANY martial endeavor. I was just trying here to give my take on another aspect of what was shown.

Looking at those stomps, I can just feel the effect it would have on the muscles, and hips and shoulders as it both realigns the body and changes the points it anchors (roots) to the ground. They align the defender externally AND internally to deal with the force of the attacker as well as support the movment and force of the defender. Then the left leg shoots out as a "stance change" to support the lock and take down, adding body weight and momentum as well as positional/angular change and full range of motion (sorry for the "M" word Mr. David) to his maneuver.

Like I said, my understanding of both SL-4 Kenpo and Taijiquan are limmited. But it won't get any better if I don't put it out there for critique. Glad we at least agree on structure ... lol that is better than the blank looks I get around here when I try to talk about it!

Dan C

 

[D Dempsey]

I know what your talking about. I did xingyi and bagua for years before I got into BJJ. I was also fortunate in that the guys I learned BJJ from were originally xingyi, bagua, and taiji instructors so a lot of the explainations were very similar.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

...so really good structure beats pretty much everything and not just grappling.

It's not that simple. Structure is FAR from everything, especially in taiji. If you have good structure, you'll be able to beat most people in taiji because they still aren't relaxed enough. But if you find someone that can really relax, and uses sticking, adhering, and following, you may find that your structure becomes useless.

 

[D Dempsey]

It's not that simple. Structure is FAR from everything, especially in taiji. If you have good structure, you'll be able to beat most people in taiji because they still aren't relaxed enough. But if you find someone that can really relax, and uses sticking, adhering, and following, you may find that your structure becomes useless.

Maybe but if you don't have a proper structure then the rest of it will not matter. Truth be told though I don't know that you could even develop those other skills if you do not have proper structure and alignment which are both develped in stance training and push-hands.
Edit: I noticed elsewhere that you said you live in Taiwan. Who do you train with? The guys I trained IMA and BJJ with originally were both students of Luo Dexieu.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

Maybe but if you don't have a proper structure then the rest of it will not matter. Truth be told though I don't know that you could even develop those other skills if you do not have proper structure and alignment which are both develped in stance training and push-hands.
Edit: I noticed elsewhere that you said you live in Taiwan. Who do you train with? The guys I trained IMA and BJJ with originally were both students of Luo Dexieu.

Structure in taijiquan is only really useful in fajing -- issuing energy. Starting with training structure is okay. But eventually you'll have to get beyond it in order to develop other skills. You just won't develop ting jin -- listening energy -- unless you put relaxation first. That means dropping concerns about structure. Emphasizing structure will make your taiji stiff. It eventually becomes counter-productive.

 

[D Dempsey]

I don't really agree with you, but my primary focus was xingyiquan and taijiquan was more of a tertiary focus at best so that may be why.

 

[thedan]

Structure in taijiquan is only really useful in fajing -- issuing energy. Starting with training structure is okay. But eventually you'll have to get beyond it in order to develop other skills. You just won't develop ting jin -- listening energy -- unless you put relaxation first. That means dropping concerns about structure. Emphasizing structure will make your taiji stiff. It eventually becomes counter-productive.

If the structure is worked to the point it is part of your neurological memory, and so it is there without thinking about it, wouldn't you have both? Structure, while you work on allowing relaxation?

Dan C

 

[Formosa Neijia]

If the structure is worked to the point it is part of your neurological memory, and so it is there without thinking about it, wouldn't you have both? Structure, while you work on allowing relaxation?

Dan C

At that point, it's too late. The damage has been done. As I said in reply to you in the other thread, emphasizing structure makes your whole body constantly connected to the dantian. That sounds great, but then every point on your body becomes an obvious handle connected to that dantian (your center of gravity). Better taiji people will use this to throw you all over the place. Every point on your body can be used to control your center of gravity.

One of my teachers proved this to me by putting me in perfect santishi, then pulling me right out of it by using my front hand. It felt like a crowbar was attached to my dantian. You don't want that.

Taiji is a non-obvious style. It works in ways that are a bit non-linear. If you make it about power and structure, you'll be missing what taiji has to offer you. Hope that helps.