Instructors: Negative loss of your 1st/Senior student?

[Franc0]

I was recently saddened and deeply upset by the leaving of my oldest (13+ yrs) and highest ranked student. It seems he wasn't very happy about the way I felt things should progress /evolve in the training system that I founded. He felt that the best way was the old original way that I put him through towards earning his black belt almost ten years ago (which I admit was slightly more stringent at that time), and that everyone should go through the exact same process. This case in a nutsehell I have been told, has happened to quite a few instructors as well as some high end founders in the past, especially with the influx of MMA, involuntary or not.
Just curious about the percentages, has this happened to you?

Franco

 

[stickarts]

We have been fortunate to keep our main staff for many many years, however, i always keep in mind that some students and instructors will come and go for various reasons. Not always easy, but a fact of life. It is important to constantly be developing new students and instructors. I am sorry to hear of the loss, but perhaps this will now open an opportunity for someone else. :0)

 

[terryl965]

We train them to be on there own and should expect that to happen. It still does not make it any better just they way it is.

 

[harlan]

I hear of this....of longtime students rebuking their teachers for not teaching younger students in the same way they were treated. It has to do with the perceived value in an investment of their time/money/sweat, and what they 'have'. To change that in any way is to diminish the perceived value of their investment. Part of that 'having' is also a fixed notion of what is learned in training. Specific skills, at specific times, in a specific way. Mental rigidity and adherence to constructs.

You really want to test your students...chuck the whole system and start training a different art. The ones that stay are the ones to invest in.

 

[Grenadier]

Everyone quits sooner or later. Hell, even I'm going to quit eventually, since I haven't found a way to reverse the aging process. At this rate, I'm going to have to face that harsh reality, after several more decades, of course.

In all seriousness, though, yes, it has happened, where some exceptionally talented people have quit for one reason or another. One left, because he got a job after school that pays exceptionally well. Others have left because of the desire to pursue other interests. Others left because of personal issues.

There will always be reasons why some of your top talent leaves. While you can slow down the rate of attrition, you will never stop it. Think of it as a leaky bucket, and that you must constantly replenish the lost water with new water, or else you're going to die of thirst.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Genbukan was founded this way, with Tanemura sensei resigning from Bujinkan because he did not agree with the evolution of teaching. At that time, Tanemura sensei was Hatsumi sensei's most senior student and -if what I read is correct- he was already acknowledged as the successor of Hatsumi sensei.
So I am pretty sure this is something of all times.

 

[kidswarrior]

Yep, every instructor will experience this at some point. I try to counter it by not investing too much emotionally in any one student.

This may also serve to keep their ego in check. In my experience, once any one begins to believe he or she has some power over my program, they become very hard to live with. And then thinking they don't need to learn anything more, they're likely candidates to leave.

 

[searcher]

My most senior student is my wife, so for her to leaveit would be a bit different. My next most senior has left, but comes back for training.

I am happy when they go for training in another art or to start their own school. I know that they will be around for training and help with testing.

 

[kidswarrior]

I am happy when they go for training in another art or to start their own school. I know that they will be around for training and help with testing.

I see what you mean. I'd probably not call that leaving, per se. More just leaving the nest. If they come back for 'holidays', I'd still count 'em as family.

 

[girlbug2]

This so reminds me of myself as the oldest daughter in my family. I'd see my parents treating my younger sisters differently than I remember being treated at their age and I would get resentful. It seemed from my POV that less was required of them, they got away with more and weren't held to the same standards that I was.

Now with the benefit of years between me and that time I am not so sure things were as they seemed then. Being a parent myself has changed the perspective somewhat. I understand better that sometimes different personalities require different ways of dealing with. OTOH there was some validity to my original reaction, time did prove that one of my sisters could have stood a little more discipline, even she says that now.

So with regards to teaching students then and now, I imagine it's not so different. There's "sibling" rivalries and jealousies, just like in a family. Sometimes teachers, like parents, aren't aware that they appear to be playing favorites. If somebody has accused you the teacher of letting new students off with less work/discipline, ask yourself if that might even be partly true. The result of that is never good, it is a cheat to that student even while they think it's better to "get away with it".

Then again, if your senior students think they know better than you as a matter of principle, let them prove it with their own school.

 

[searcher]

I see what you mean. I'd probably not call that leaving, per se. More just leaving the nest. If they come back for 'holidays', I'd still count 'em as family.

I like your analogy. I guess I can always look forward to the holidays.

 

[jarrod]

everyone's got to find their own road. i don't live where i grew up, i'm not taking over my dad's business, & i don't teach or fight the way my coaches do. jung called it the process of individuation, & martial arts should have room for it.

jf

 

[Marginal]

You really want to test your students...chuck the whole system and start training a different art. The ones that stay are the ones to invest in.

Sounds like a great way to build a cult.

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

I'm not a teacher of the MA, I'm a very dedicated student, but I have many dojo mates who seem to be walking down the same path as the OP's student.

I hear lots of stories about how training has become "Watered down" in the past few years, and I think that has a lot to do with me joining the dojo (I was 13 joining a predominately 20+ group). In the past few months I've felt that I resent myself for joining, as I've noticed that the watered down training is becoming watered down.

We've had a few people leave since I started training, others simply giving up, just don't care about the quality of training anymore.

The senior student, and assistant instructor (a Godan) seems to have noticed this and the impact its had on me (He's always kind of had an eye out for me, since I was the runt of the litter) and has made changes to his class (he teaches our basics night) to ensure that we get premium training and we leave each night scarecly able to hold our weight.

I don't think that senior students should ever think they know more than the instructor, but there gets a point where your students have enough skill to start their own school, but have no desire to, or simply haven't gotten around to it. If these students also want to stay with your program, then perhaps they should begin to be treated as colleagues instead of students. This could help take some of the load off the senior instructor, and make everyone's experience in the MA a little better (seeing as three teachers could, in theory, have very different specialties and help the students in these areas)

 

[Tensei85]

I agree, This happens quite frequently.

I've left a few teachers in the past, with different feeling as to why. I won't go into anything that would leave negative feelings or thoughts of any of the teachers because in the end I still respect them and won't spread any negativity there way.

The way I feel if you have to leave than maintain respect and dignity and make sure not to leave on bad terms. (maybe not always possible but try and leave in the best manner as possible, so as not to leave a lot of negative energy)

Even though I've discovered other truths and what I can relate to I still show respect and visit my past teachers to show that I'm still there for them even though I may not be training with them at the moment per say.

 

[Ninebird8]

In traditional kung fu, it is de riguer after many years, for the master to almost force the senior out to see how it is to teach and train by his/her own. In this way, the senior truly reaches an understanding of what he/she has been taught, whether it will work within their own skills/experience, and most importantly, two other things occur: first, one discovers how to make the skill his/her own, and secondly, one realizes what is still left to be learned and returns to the master to fill in the gaps or learn some more. Like any father/son/daughter relationship, the master as "father or sifu" must also ensure the student is loyal, honorable, and dedicated to spreading the art. The easiest way to see this is to allow the senior to start teaching on his/her own, encounter similar issues as a teacher that the master did, and thus see the essential lessons of an individual art become mental, not physical.

All three of my teachers have done this to me, and exactly all of the above has occurred. It has made me a better teacher, a better student, and most of all, given me a tremendous appreciation for the sacrifices all three of my teachers have made for myself and my fellow seniors. Alas, it also makes me realize how hard it is to find that 1-3 students who will last long enough for me to pass on what I have learned.

 

[Phoenix44]

I don't mean to play the Devil's Advocate, but I have the opposite perspective. I left my sensei after 12 years. I was also a student and instructor, and I certainly did not presume that I was in any position to comment on curriculum intensity. I sure as hell didn't consider starting my own school. I'm learning a different martial art elsewhere.

It had more to do with the fact that after 12 years, I no longer felt that, as a student, I was particularly important to sensei. Nor did I feel that he particularly cared what I was teaching. I couldn't remember the last time anyone observed or commented on my teaching, or for that matter, on my training. Other students/instructors advanced in rank; I did not. Under the circumstances, I started to doubt my value as an instructor--I mean, if I'm not a valuable student, and I'm not good enough to advance, then what purpose do I have as an instructor other than to fill a time slot in a very tight schedule?

I left--I thought on good terms--but I know he was hurt.

People leave for many different reasons, and you shouldn't necessarily assume it's something you did wrong. On the other hand, could you have been taking him for granted?

 

[Ronin74]

My first student and I are still on good terms. He left to try to move further with his career, but he would come back from time to time for whatever training he could get- even if all we could do was brush up on his current repetoir without adding anything new. He was also engaged, but that didn't workout well, and it seemed to take his mind off of training.