Instructors molesting students...

[Grenadier]

First, and foremost, if the chief instructor were doing such deeds, the original poster did the right thing by withdrawring the children from the school. There would be no recourse, except to continue to keep the police involved.

For any instructor to inappropriately touch a student with the intent of doing so, is disgusting, and abhorrent. It doesn't matter what genders, ages, etc., are involved. In fact, it doesn't matter what field this is in, since such things can happen anywhere, such as at a regular school, children's sporting events, etc.

What's worse, is that those who do such terrible acts, aren't going to stop, and will simply move on to other victims. If the evidence is there, that molestation has occurred, then justice should be swift and extensive.

Demonizing such folks, while normally a good thing, though, can be a slippery slope. We must be careful when making initial judgements, lest someone falsely accuse another. While such accusations are rare, they do sometimes happen to perfectly innocent people. It doesn't matter if the person is innocent or not; the accusation (even if it were with good intentions, and turned out to be false) itself can damage someone's credibility to the point where they can no longer effectively function.

 

[thesensei]

I've seen some great responses here - exactly what I hoped to see. Just to clarify, I do not have children at the school, I was personally working out there. I meant that IF I had children enrolled, I would withdraw them, therefore, I did not feel that it was wise to continue attending myself.

With another poster, I am also a pastor, and have to deal with this issue in my church as well - background checks, no-touch policies, etc., are all part of our policy. It's interesting to see how the procedures are almost exactly the same. It's sad that our world has come to the place where we have to be careful about even giving a child a hug, but unfortunately, it must be.

Thank you for your strong feelings on keeping our children safe!

Salute

 

[Drac]

It's sad that our world has come to the place where we have to be careful about even giving a child a hug, but unfortunately, it must be.

Yes,it is very sad

Thank you for your strong feelings on keeping our children safe!Salute

Speaking for myself you are very welcome..

 

[Jimi]

Give me five minutes with him. I'll fix the problem.

Hey Trdrockrat, I understand your feelings, but 5 mins? Your going light for something like that. LOL. If the abused was my neice or loved one, I would think up a torture that would take 20 years to kill him, and he'd be screaming for mercey in the first 5 seconds. I've said it before, for people like that, I would volenteer(SP?) to be the states executioner. I heard about an instructor at a martial arts school whos father was owner, when a child disclosed that the instructor had been molesting her, the family went to the father first before contacting the police, why I don't know. It was reported that the father/school owner subdued his own son and turned him over to the police. Was he interested in justice or did he want to save face for himself and the school? who knows. I agree with the comments already stated, It is very sad indeed. PEACE

 

[Drac]

5 mins? Your going light for something like that. LOL. If the abused was my neice or loved one, I would think up a torture that would take 20 years to kill him, and he'd be screaming for mercey in the first 5 seconds

This is why I LOVE this board...So many like minds,,,

 

[Fuzzy Foot]

Yes I know of an incident or two of unwelcome advances with students who were "of age", and heard tell of other incidences of touchy feely instructors. It seems some see an opportunity to use their position of authority for alternative purposes. Like many here I have what I feel is excellent restraint but touch one of mine and I'll come up with some alternative purposes of my own.

 

[mjd]

I need to weight in on this one, pull down the curtain people, there is more of this crap coming on then you all realize.

This is the most sick thing that can happen, I can't even imagine this happening to one of my kids, and any instructor, master, or whoever that does this sort of thing show be run out of the country.

I commend your quickness to take no chances and leave the studio with your daughter, you did the right thing, you can not afford to wait, in this case you most assume he did it and leave, and if he didn't your daughter is still safe.

 

[tradrockrat]

Watch it "Trad"..Some bed wetting cry baby liberal will take offense..I once posted that its too bad that I wasn't the arresting officer in a molestation case..Some idiot posted that I souldn't be a cop with that attitude..

That idiot has never had to work with the aftermath of child abuse. It's about the worst thing I can imagine a person doing to another - they don't deserve consideration as a human being. I defy anyone to work with a 13 year old molestation victim and not feel the same way.


EDIT: Jimi - they're not worth the time - I'd rather castrate him and stick a kukri in his guts with a twist. He may not die in 5 minutes, but I'd be done... but I understand the sentiment - if it were a loved one of mine...

 

[James Kovacich]

I for one am a very hands on teacher,.

Is there any other way to teach?

Martial arts is very hands on, well, some systems are. How would you teach grappling with out ever touching someone? Even traditional kata, there are a lot of instructors that physically move people into proper position.

It's a risky position in a sense, because even a honest instructor could end up with a less then honest student with a chip on his/her shoulder. Never be alone with anyone you don't absolutely trust, never lock the doors, and don't push people into uncomfortable situations. If they want to only work with same sex people, let them get comfortable doing just that.

There are crazy people out there, both instructors and students. Students need to be careful of the instructor, and the instructors need to be careful of the students. Same as in offices with "Sexual Harassement", yes, it happens and should be punished. But there are also stories of people loosing there jobs for very innocent comments...

Very true. I left a BJJ school after 3.5 years because if I showed up late (which I couldn't help) I might end up wasting a class with a kid when I could of easily rotated in an adult group.

It's not worth being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Carol]

Very true. I left a BJJ school after 3.5 years because if I showed up late (which I couldn't help) I might end up wasting a class with a kid when I could of easily rotated in an adult group.

It's not worth being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I agree. My school, while a Kenpo school, has quite a bit of depth in BJJ and we teach some grappling. I enjoy it, but I won't grapple anyone under 18.

My style of learning is largely kinaesthetic. I need an instructor that can push me in to position and move me around so I can actually feel how the movement is supposed to go. Not every teacher is willing to do that...takes a lot of trust on both sides.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Well, it's sad that this topic has to come up. It seems that in the past few years, the problem of instructors molesting students is happening more and more. Last week, at a school that I was involved with, the owner/head instructor was arrested for molesting 2 of his teenage/female students. The issue has not been resolved/come to trial yet, but he admitted "inappropriate touching" of one of the students to the police. I withdrew from the school, as I cannot place myself under the authority of someone who I cannot respect. Plus, I would not allow my daughter to continue attending, so I do not feel that I should. BTW, he is not instructing at the school, but he still owns it!

So, what are your thoughts on this issue? Have any of you had the misfortune to see this happen? What was/would be your response?

Instructors, what do you do to keep yourselves from compromising situations, and ensure the morality and integrity of those teaching with and under you?


Salute

The best way to solve this problem is to make the school 18 and over. If parents want to put there kids in martial arts than the kids should be accompanied by their parents at all times. The parent learns, then communicates the knowledge to their child. This way your martial arts school does not become a baby sitting class for kids who dont want to be there, and there is no training the children, because that becomes the parents job. I dont mind a little interaction with the kids, but the parents should be there at all times and do 80% of the teaching to their child, after they have been shown.
This keeps parents from pawning off their kids, and forces some quality time between parent and child.

 

[Kacey]

The best way to solve this problem is to make the school 18 and over. If parents want to put there kids in martial arts than the kids should be accompanied by their parents at all times. The parent learns, then communicates the knowledge to their child. This way your martial arts school does not become a baby sitting class for kids who dont want to be there, and there is no training the children, because that becomes the parents job. I dont mind a little interaction with the kids, but the parents should be there at all times and do 80% of the teaching to their child, after they have been shown.
This keeps parents from pawning off their kids, and forces some quality time between parent and child.

I have to disagree that the parent should be present at all times. I have a student whose mother came with her to the first class, and the girl was tense as a brick... her mother left, and wham! she relaxed. Kids need to learn to function away from their parents, especially in activities in which the child is interested and the parent is not. Having said that, I will point out that I have several students between 10 and 15 who come without their parents, because the parent is uninterested, and one student (12 years old) who joined with her father because they were looking for an activity in which they could participate together.

If the parent wants to come with the child - great! But for too many students, the parents are not interested in (or physically capable of) participating in the same activity as the child. I mentioned the father/daughter pair; her mother cannot participate in class because she has an immune disorder than lead to physical problems, and if she were the only parent, her child would never be able to participate under the conditions you state.

Have I had problems with parents using the class as babysitting? Occasionally... and only in the case of one child in the family was already a member of the class, and the parents would periodically leave the other child "to see if he was ready to join yet" when they needed to go present shopping for Christmas or birthdays. It was, in fact, a point of contention between the parents, because the mother agreed that only the child who was truly interested should be in the class, but the father would use the class as babysitting when his wife was out of town for business.

Also, there are a majority of parents who, while they may watch their child participate on occasion (usually testing), are not interested in participating - should those students be barred from participation solely because their parents are uninterested? I don't think so - I would rather have an interested 7 year-old, alone, than an uninterested parent who is only there because the child wants to be - even if the parent comes, under those conditions, the child would, I expect, quickly stop due to the lack of interest of the parent, and that is unfair to the childe.

Parents need to protect their children, true - when the child joins a new activity, the parent needs to thoroughly explore it, check out the adults who are affiliated with, be present at regular but not predictable intervals, and so on - but both parents and children need to have activities in which the parent is not present, other than school or work. If they want to share the activity - great! But if not, that should not be a requirement for participation; I believe that it would prevent many more students than it would protect.

 

[gardawamtu]

I have to agree with Kacey on this one. Kids need other activities away from parents and with other kids and adult authority figures. It helps them step out on their own (if they are there because they want to be and not to fulfill their parents aspirations).

I do sympathize with the posters who do not like to have children in their classes. The discipline can be a huge problem. I think schools should have many different options. Some schools specialize in adult training and some with training kids. That is the easiest way if you don't have the facilities or instructors to maintain multiple classes. Unfortunately, scheduling is always going to cause some dissatisfaction.

That said, for any kids class there should be at least two responsible instructors at the school to prevent inappropriate advances. Hopefully there will be some parents as well. As with all the other posts, the classes should be very open to the public to protect both the children from attack and the owners/instructors from false accusation.

 

[Drac]

I have to agree with Kacey on this one. Kids need other activities away from parents and with other kids and adult authority figures. It helps them step out on their own (if they are there because they want to be and not to fulfill their parents aspirations

I agree with you and Kacey..I believe that kids never do well with the parents stareing from the side lines..

 

[MJS]

Regarding the presence of parents, I have mixed feelings on that. I agree that it is good to give the kids some 'away' time from the parents, but I also feel that the parents should still show up other than to just drop off and pick up the child. I'd need a few more arms in order to count the number of times I've just seen the child and no parent. But its these same people that complain when their child isn't progressing, they don't know what their child should be working on, etc. Do they have to sit for the entire 1/2 hr, 45 min or 1 hr class? No, but they should make a point to observe a few times at the least.

Mike

 

[Kacey]

I don't have any problem with parents observing class - in fact, I encourage it - but I still would not limit participation only to those children whose parents attended as well, for the reasons I gave earlier.

 

[DeLamar.J]

I would rather have the parents there at all times to keep track of their child. I enjoy teaching mostly adults, but I don't mind teaching the rare well behaved child. However, if you are teaching children without the parent present, then acusations could be more likely.
All it takes is one child to say you touched their special place, and you have a black mark rather its true, or not. The bad thing is that once your acused, it damages the reputation of your school very badly.
Maybe a teen limit could be set, 13 and up. But I have a fear of teenage girls, so that wouldnt work for me.

 

[Kacey]

I would rather have the parents there at all times to keep track of their child. I enjoy teaching mostly adults, but I don't mind teaching the rare well behaved child. However, if you are teaching children without the parent present, then acusations could be more likely.
All it takes is one child to say you touched their special place, and you have a black mark rather its true, or not. The bad thing is that once your acused, it damages the reputation of your school very badly.
Maybe a teen limit could be set, 13 and up. But I have a fear of teenage girls, so that wouldnt work for me.

I have a mixed adult/child class - which is how I have the father/daughter pair in the same class. There are always other adults around - much more than there are in the middle school where I teach, when other adults are not usually in the room.

As far as behavior goes... again, a massive improvement over what I see in my middle school classroom, because the students are there voluntarily, and have convinced their parents to bring them, pay for class, and support their participation. The parents' presence is welcome, but not required; most of them are working out elsewhere in the YMCA where I teach, supporting the idea that exercise (regardless of form) is important.

If you have a problem teaching children and teens, then don't - but that doesn't mean that the rest of us should use your guidelines. I find your statement "the rare well behaved child" indicative of your attitude and perhaps part of your problem, in that you apparently expect children to misbehave - because quite honestly, I have fewer problem with the children in my class than some of the adults. The kids are on time more than the adults, less likely to miss class and more likely to tell me ahead of time when they'll be out, polite, follow class rules, - adults are more likely to be late or missing because of work and not let me know they're not coming, more self-centered in their opinions, and less likely to practice outside of class... which isn't to say that I have problem with my adults studetns, I don't - but neither do I have problems with the kids; the majority of kids I meet in either TKD or teaching school are polite. The few exceptions show up very clearly, true - but so do the few exceptions among the adults. You will get what you expect in terms of behavior - if you set norms for the group and adhere to them, then all students will either comply or leave, an option I don't have as a school teacher; I have to teach whomever is assigned to my classroom.

 

[jks9199]

Youth classes should always be open to parental monitoring/watching. That doesn't mean the parents need to be there all the time, and if the parent is causing a disruption, they may have to leave... but the idea of closed youth class is just plain wrong.

But, I have a bigger problem with what some of the profit-oriented martial arts schools are doing. If I describe a business that's picking kids up from school, monitoring them for several hours until their parents pick them up, and runs all-day programs when school is not in session... Am I describing a day care, or a "afterschool martial arts program?" My opinion is that BOTH are day care, and should be regulated and monitored as such. But the "afterschool martial arts programs" aren't monitored or regulated. Their employees have even more access to kids than a typical day care teacher, but don't have to be trained in anything or pass any background screening.

Gee... Sound like a disaster in the making to anyone else?

 

[Ceicei]

But, I have a bigger problem with what some of the profit-oriented martial arts schools are doing. If I describe a business that's picking kids up from school, monitoring them for several hours until their parents pick them up, and runs all-day programs when school is not in session... Am I describing a day care, or a "afterschool martial arts program?" My opinion is that BOTH are day care, and should be regulated and monitored as such. But the "afterschool martial arts programs" aren't monitored or regulated. Their employees have even more access to kids than a typical day care teacher, but don't have to be trained in anything or pass any background screening.

Gee... Sound like a disaster in the making to anyone else?

I will have to disagree with you. I worked with my studio to obtain the government codes and regulations when we were trying to set up our after-school program. (We had to meet compliance with the Federal, State, County, and City codes. We found the City codes to be more stringent and this took a long time before we were finally in operation).

In Utah, after-school programs and all-day full-summer programs are licensed and regulated.

The after-school martial arts program, if they are run more than 2 hours per day in length, fits in that definition. As such, they fall under the child care regulation and must be licensed by the state. Most children's regular martial arts classes are one hour or less (even if there are several classes in a day), and that is why the licensing is not required.

Due to licensing regulations, all employees have to pass the background screening and be certified with CPR. The ratio of adults to children are also in the regulation. The facility must pass safety criteria to comply with the child care regulations before the license is issued. We had to do some building renovations, so setting up this program required far more extensive planning and commitment than running the traditional martial arts program. The after-school program also turned out to be our most profitable program because there is a high demand for quality after-school service (since many parents in our area are employed).

I hope this gives you insight with schools that may run such programs.

- Ceicei