Another MA Instructor Molsests Child(ren) - Mature Content - Reader Beware

[Tgace]

I think the new trend towards 24/7/365 GPS tracking is a step in the right direction, since keeping them in prison doesnt seem to be possible for some reason.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Opening a MA school isn't like applying for a liquer license I suppose. No fingerprinting and background checks.

Kind of an intesting contrast; in order to sell booze you have to be fingerprinted and all that (I'm not sure if thats a state to state thing or Federal) but to teach people to fight, in most cases the ability to effectively inflict grevious injury on some one you don't have to pass a background check.

In many cases to work in an enviroment that puts you in close proximity with children (i.e. teacher, work at a YMCA ect) you have to pass a background check that includes finger printing. It is cases like this that almost makes me feel that it should be a requirement for MA instructors as well, due to their close, often one on one enviroment with children.

I know that this is a rare occurance, but still it makes me wonder.

Just my thoughts.

-Josh

In WA state the martial arts are not recognized as being any different than a dance class or the like. If you really stopped to think about all the things children can become involved in, and the people they may come across as a result, background checking MA intstructors is at the bottom of the list. Parents need to become more involved with the details of any activity they put their child in. Any one of them could have been keeping a close eye.
Sean

 

[dubljay]

In WA state the martial arts are not recognized as being any different than a dance class or the like. If you really stopped to think about all the things children can become involved in, and the people they may come across as a result, background checking MA intstructors is at the bottom of the list. Parents need to become more involved with the details of any activity they put their child in. Any one of them could have been keeping a close eye.
Sean

I couldn't agree more Sean. When I was teaching a kids class half the parents I never saw or met. To them droping their kids off at "karate" was the same as droping them off at day care. I don't want to start "its the parents fault" witch hunt, but in very general terms it seems parents pay less attention to their children and their activities. I grew up in a family where my parents knew everything about me, there was no point in keeping secrets.

I realize MA is not recognized as being different, in any state that I'm aware of. I know background checking MA instructors would be low on a list of need to know information with kids. My post was more or less a stream of conciousness that had no real guidence, I was just making connections as I saw them. Teachers and Daycare providers are monitored by the state, are are some afterschool programs, MA schools have almost as much contact with kids as those professions so the connection seemed logical. Like you said the things kids could become involved in MA is definately not the most dangerous to them.

 

[Tgace]

Perhaps as a selling point (if the dojo makes enough $$) instructors could pay for a 3rd party investigation service to perform a background investigation on themselves and post it up....:idunno:

 

[RRouuselot]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Because that's also illegal in most civilized nations.
The individual here has not yet been convicted and the law states innocent until proven guilty.
Vigilantee justice is rarely effective or accurate.

2) Personally, I think once found guilty, they should spend the rest of their lives on the receiving end of what ever crime they commited. But thats my personal opinion.

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Bummer

2)[font=&quot] [/font]I agree……or something worse.

 

[ed-swckf]

Ok while i think this is a abhorant crime and one that is completely destructive and the cause of irreparible damage to peoples lives it has been mentioned a few times through this post that the person needs help and is very very sick. I must stress i am not saying that the opinions are expressed are disimilar from my own, but when people are saying this man is sick and needs help it seems the type of help you have offered is tattooing their forehead or cutting of genitalia. This won't help them, it may serve to be a short term soloution to your reaction to the problem but not much more. I find it interesting that people can see this as a sickness but not want to find a way to cure it or prevent it from coming about in others in future. I mean physical sickness gets peoples sympathy but mental sickness gets a completely different reaction, i feel that knowledge is power so a greater understanding of the problem would give a greater chance of ending the problem or at least better controlling it.

I understand how the ramifications of this sickness can make people very angry, they upset me too but if you are agreed its a sickness then perhaps we should all look for some consistancy within how we react to sick people.

I AM NOT CONDONING OR DEFENDING ANY OF THE ACTIONS OF THIS PERVERTED MAN.

 

[Tgace]

Myth of Mental Illness

Psychological and bodily disorders differ, he says, in that psychological disorders can only be understood if they are viewed as things that do not just happen to a person, but are brought about by him: `Mental illness' is not something a person has, it is something he does or is (Szasz 1972/Summary). Psychological disorders are actions rather than events and they are of some value to the patient. The patient, however, is not malingering. He is not fully aware of what he is doing and it is the psychiatrist's job to help him find out. Physical illnesses, on the other hand, just happen to a patient, and cannot be cured by self-knowledge. You have to kill the bug, set the bone, or whatever.

...

This, he says leads to a dilemma in court cases, because when we regard an offender as insane and officially excuse him of his crime, we still punish him by treating him as someone less than human. The solution, for Szasz, is to treat all offenders as sane and punish them in the normal way. Anthony Clare says he cannot understand why someone who acts involuntarily has to be regarded as any less than human. Many patients do experience the process of being treated as mentally ill as a dehumanising one. but is it a logical necessity that it has to be so, as Szasz suggests?

http://www.szasz.com/sharma_ch2.html

Many logical problems and contradictions begin to emerge when the medical or illness model is employed in the field of psychology. Firstly, the original model used to generate "the model for mental illness took its structure from such phenomena as Syphilis of the brain or delirious conditions, intoxication, etc., in which a person may manifest certain disorders of thinking and behavior. It was believed that all so-called mental illness was of this type. Mental illness is thus regarded as basically no different from physical disease. The only difference between mental and bodily disease is that the former, affecting the brain, manifests itself by means of mental symptoms, whereas the latter, affecting other organ systems, for example, the skin, liver, and so on, manifests itself by means of symptoms referable to those parts of the body (Szasz, 1963a). The implications of such logic are, of course, that the disturbances of thought and behavior, etc., are attributable to diseases of the brain, i.e. a neuro-physiological entity, rather than a disorder of the mind, as contended in the medical model. The mind is, in fact, an abstract concept (Ryle, 1949; Szasz, 1966a); which cannot be ill or sick except in an abstract metaphorical sense. Hence, the first logical fallacy or confusion arises when an abstraction is equated with a physical entity. This enigma may be stated as follows: How can an abstract concept and a physical entity be treated in equivalent operational terms as required within the framework of the medical model? Confusion arising from such a conceptualization has been vividly discussed by Szasz (1961).

 

[digitalronin]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]


What is Mental Illness? (link)


Mental illness is an illness that affects or is manifested in a person's brain. It may impact on the way a person thinks, behaves, and interacts with other people.

The term "mental illness" actually encompasses numerous psychiatric disorders, and just like illnesses that affect other parts of the body, they can vary in severity. Many people suffering from mental illness may not look as though they are ill or that something is wrong, while others may appear to be confused, agitated, or withdrawn.

It is a myth that mental illness is a weakness or defect in character and that sufferers can get better simply by "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps." Mental illnesses are real illnesses--as real as heart disease and cancer--and they require and respond well to treatment.






[/font]

 

[Tgace]

http://www.szasz.com/sharma.html

During the past few years a dialogue with regard to the detrimental or beneficial effects of the medical model has become popular. The emerging recognition appears to be that the model has serious limitations in understanding and dealing with human conflicts and problems. Yet there are few indications that the model shows any signs of loosening its control over the (mental) institutions and the popular thinking. One reason for this is that the model is deeply entrenched, has generated a considerable vested interest, and has created for itself a power base within the society. In this volume an attempt is made to discuss some of these aspects of the model.

 

[Tgace]

"The modern, therapeutic state came into existence as a result of the political transformation from Rule of Man to Rule of Law. This transformation carries with it an internal contradiction: while people value individual freedom under Rule of Law, they wish for a greater degree of social control than is provided by law. Under the ideology of the medical model, psychiatry provides this extra-legal social control. Politically, this model justifies the involuntary incarceration of those people not found guilty of crimes but regarded as strange, threatening or dangerous. This justification rests on switching from the moral model of behavior, which implies choice and responsibility, to a causal-determinist model which implies no choice and non-responsibility. This socially useful deception blinds us to ourselves and to the nature of our personal and public problems, while rendering us less capable of intelligently discussing and dealing with these problems."

Introduction: The Medical Model as the Ideology of the Therapeutic State
Ronald Leifer, Ithaca, New York
The Journal of Mind and Behavior , Summer 1990, Vol. 11, No. 3, Pages 247 [1]-258 [12], ISSN 0271-0137, ISBN 0-930195-05-1

 

[Tgace]

All this is basically to back my viewpoint that yes, while this man is mentally "disturbed" (vs. "ill") and should get help... IMO that "help" should be from within a prison. Assuming he is "proven guilty" of course. The "he is sick (like he has the flu)" paradigm is not a model universally accepted in the psychological community.

Read any of these to see the trend....

http://www.umaine.edu/jmb/archives/volume11/11_3-4_1990summerautumn.html

 

[digitalronin]

All this is basically to back my viewpoint that yes, while this man is mentally "disturbed" (vs. "ill") and should get help... IMO that "help" should be from within a prison. Assuming he is "proven guilty" of course. The "he is sick (like he has the flu)" paradigm is not a model universally accepted in the psychological community.

What percentage of the community does agree with the model?
While am in agreement that this individual if guilty of the crimes of child molestation should be put to death or incarcerated, and also feel that too many lawyers are using this an excuse to justify a clients actions. I take issue with the general treatment of patients within the current facilities. I do have a negative biased perspective being a former voluntary patient at a county hospital for depression. My stay there was approximately three weeks.
Since you are more familier with the prison systems, please explain what kind of help a mentally disturbed individual would recieve during his or her stay.


peace

 

[Tgace]

If you read carefully, most people against the "disease model" of mental illness are also against non-voluntary incarceration at mental facilities.

"Politically, this model justifies the involuntary incarceration of those people not found guilty of crimes but regarded as strange, threatening or dangerous. This justification rests on switching from the moral model of behavior, which implies choice and responsibility, to a causal-determinist model which implies no choice and non-responsibility."

As to "what type" of counseling they would get...Im not a Psychologist so I dont know. My point is that the "hes sick" excuse for behavior can go WAY too far.

 

[MA-Caver]

Yes..and just because somebody has been found "not guilty" doesn't mean that I'm going to let him babysit my children either.

Particularly if they (the perps) have a history of it. Don't blame you at all mate.
Cases like these are very frustrating because it's usually the child's word against the perps and unless the child has a good recall and is willing to share that information openly and in a manner which the lines of their story doesn't conflict with one another... a skilled defense attorney can pick holes in the child's story and get his client off.
Problem is coaching the child to withstand the harsh cross examination of the defense isn't that easy... especially trying to recall a traumatic and confusing event as the actual molestation. Trials can be just as traumatizing and stressful since the child has to relate what happened (often shamefully) in front of a group of strangers.
These perps are skilled in grooming their victims to the point their asses are covered and certian "secrets" are "ingrained" not to be revealed.
Parents need to educate their children about inappropriate touch but even more so to "break - the - secret" without fear of reprisals or condemdation. This can be just as difficult when the perp is one of the parents.

Thus only the most trusted sitters have to be utilized. But even then you never know. That's why it's up to the child to be willing to report any signs of inappropriate behavior on the part of the sitter and the child needs to know what is off limits and what is not. Thus, consenquently it's never too early or soon to learn about the "birds and the bees" to understand that "this behavior, and this contact is only okay for mommy and daddy to do...to each other."

 

[digitalronin]

I'm still wondering how he got a license to operate a martial arts school in the first place without a background check. How many states actually require this process? Basically it should be the same as opening up a day care center no? More often we hear about the molestations occuring, but who else is out there operating schools that have no business doing so, such as felons?

 

[Tgace]

Not many jobs require "background checks" beyond LEO, School Teachers and a few others.

 

[digitalronin]

Not many jobs require "background checks" beyond LEO, School Teachers and a few others.

In the case of a martial arts school, it should be mandatory, since children may be put at risk. A lot of the the dojos are independent shops not connected to a national body. Even if they are connected they may not require a background check.

-----------------------------


oh as for treatment of mentally disturbed patients while incarcerated, this
article by the office of justice, was interesting.


NATIONAL CORRECTIONS CONFERENCE ON MENTAL ILLNESS

The number of individuals with mental illness involved in the criminal justice system has risen sharply over the past two decades. This influx has directly impacted corrections departments that have been ill-equipped to identify, treat, and monitor these mentally ill inmates. Two major causes of this increase have been the deinstitutionalization of the mental health system and the proliferation of more restrictive commitment laws. They have both made it more difficult for people with mental illness to access mental health treatment. Thus, they remain untreated in the community until their behavior-disruptive, violent, or otherwise-becomes an issue for law enforcement.

 

[Tgace]

Never said that prison was the "best" place for treatment. Only that people there should get it, and that denying responsibility and blaming "illness" is an easy route and one being doubted even by experts in the field of psychology lately.

 

[Drac]

I just think that some people take the legal concept of "innocent until proven guilty" and stretch it into "you cant have a personal opinion about somebody until the court says hes guilty.""judgemental?"

.

I hear ya there man..Someone just posted a negative ding on my reputation because I expressed my opinion..