Insights into Kenpo and Groundfighting

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
2 things:
Satans Barber: You will be surprised at how many people can grapple. Anyone who has done high-school wrestling, Judo, or who is bigger and stronger can be a real threat if you both go to the ground. While it is still rare to find a BJJ fighter in the street, it is not uncommon to find someone who can knock you down, sit on top, and start punching you in the face. If you haven't tried it, you will be amazed at how hard it is to escape from a pin underneath a good high-school wrestler.

They don't offer wrestling in British schools really, that I've ever seen, so I guess that's an environmental consideration - good point though!

I've done Judo myself, but it was a loooong time ago and I don't know how good I'd be now. I was pretty small too, only about 8 or 9 when I did it.

As for sitting on someone and battering them, that's nothing any kempoka can't do either though! This is one of the things that really annoys me when talking about self defence, people often talk about 'street fighting' as if the people you're up against have got something that you haven't; any martial artist has all that and more, which is why we should have the winning edge!

Ian.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
2 things:

Michael Billings: It sounds like you are taking a progressive, realistic approach to teachning and training. I applaud you for staying true to Kenpo while thinking outside the box and challenging your students.

Satans Barber: You will be surprised at how many people can grapple. Anyone who has done high-school wrestling, Judo, or who is bigger and stronger can be a real threat if you both go to the ground. While it is still rare to find a BJJ fighter in the street, it is not uncommon to find someone who can knock you down, sit on top, and start punching you in the face. If you haven't tried it, you will be amazed at how hard it is to escape from a pin underneath a good high-school wrestling.

OFK--Once again, I agree! It is good to see other Kenpo guys doing this sort of training. Regarding high school wrestlers. I was at grappling class yesterday, and there was a guy there that was a wrestler. I had the chance to roll with him for a 2min match. While we started the match from out knees, I quickly found myself on the bottom. He does have some exp. with BJJ, and I give him credit for attempting an ankle lock. After I escaped that, during the course on the match, I found myself on the bottom, with him cross mounted on me. He had excellent control on the ground. A wrestler can definately be very tough. If they add submissions to their skills that they already have, just imagine how much tougher they will be!

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by satans.barber
[
As for sitting on someone and battering them, that's nothing any kempoka can't do either though! This is one of the things that really annoys me when talking about self defence, people often talk about 'street fighting' as if the people you're up against have got something that you haven't; any martial artist has all that and more, which is why we should have the winning edge!

Ian. [/B]

True, while sitting on someone and punching them does not take much skill, we are talking about the bottom person. Its not as easy as you might think it is, trying to get someone off of your chest.

Mike

 

[Kenpomachine]

We don't have many techniques starting FROM the ground on your back, but I can recall one from Larry Tatum.

We also do one drill in which we are paired and need to take the other's person belt. That's the only times when we train going to the ground already engaged with the opponent. It's different , but it's a lot of fun. I think the instructor has only done kenpo, he didn't take Judo classes or any other that I'm aware of.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
We don't have many techniques starting FROM the ground on your back, but I can recall one from Larry Tatum.


Thats my point! By looking at another art that addresses this type of situation, you will find a solution to that problem!

Mike

 

[Sigung86]

Interesting. I don't get here very often anymore.... I come in here and find the church and the choir sitting together and preaching to one another ... :asian:

Anyone think of taking up a collection? :rofl:

 

[J-kid]

You have to learn some grappling to counter someone grappling.

If not you will become victome to GnP (ground and pound) or even worse having some sort of joint or something else broken, might be even choked out.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Sigung86
Interesting. I don't get here very often anymore.... I come in here and find the church and the choir sitting together and preaching to one another ... :asian:

Anyone think of taking up a collection? :rofl:

You're right! It does seem that way. But, the doors are open to anyone who would like to enter!:asian:

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by J-kid
You have to learn some grappling to counter someone grappling.

If not you will become victome to GnP (ground and pound) or even worse having some sort of joint or something else broken, might be even choked out.

Very true!!!

Mike

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by J-kid
You have to learn some grappling to counter someone grappling.

Play by the rules and you'll never develop and surprise nobody :

 

[J-kid]

Kenpomachine what rules???

 

[Kenpomachine]

Exactly!!!

Now, if you seriously ask what rules, I was refering to the rules usually used when fighting in a given martial art.

 

[superdave]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Exactly!!!

Now, if you seriously ask what rules, I was refering to the rules usually used when fighting in a given martial art.

Not only that, if you don't go looking for trouble, you shouldn't have to worry about fighting anyway. The odds of getting into a fight without someone running their mouth, acting stupid because they are drunk, or because someone bruised their fragile little ego are pretty slim.

 

[redfang]

Several Kenpo schools in my area focus on grappling. Several of the instructors are competent shootfighting instructors. Where I train we practice shootfighting in a sport format as well as add ons to standard technigues. Besides the shoot fighting several of our students have wrestling or JJ backgrounds and we all will teach from our strengths. Recently me and several others from my school attended a training session with Bart Vale, required periodically throughout the year to keep the shootfighting certification current and be able to offer it through the schools.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Redfang: Is it safe to assume you study at a Tracy's Kenpo school?

 

[redfang]

Yes, it is a Tracy's school.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Redfang: Can you tell us more about the shootfighting training, techniques, how much time, drills, how you graft shootfighting to Kenpo, etc. I'm very interested.

 

[Bill Smith]

Yes it's true that you may need some form of grappling in order to counter and I agree with what everyone is saying. Even though Kenpo is to be a stand up striking art it is a 3D system. What you do standing can be executed on the ground. Think of the situation at hand, we are trained to get in and get out...no long battle. The same applies to the ground. I'm not talking about the competive circuit but real life.

Try different situations, the positions when on the ground (offensive or defensive) and what you have in your Kenpo training. Also we have take-downs, see how you would use Kenpo in a defensive manner if you were counter by your attacker.

Just my two cents and trying to be helpful.

Yours in Kenpo,
Bill Smith

 

[Ender]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Kenpo techniques work great against untrained or unexpectant fighters either standing or on the ground. If a fighter isn't prepared to defend against a groin kick or an eye strike, then a kenpoist will probably be able to successfully execute those strikes.

It is against a trained fighter with good defenses either standing or on the ground where a Kenpoist or any other fighter runs into trouble. Kenpoists can often succeed agianst trained stand-up fighters because Kenpo IS a highly effective stand-up style. On the ground though, against a really good wrestler or Jiu Jitsu player, a Kenpoist would find himself unable to gain an advantageous position from which to strike.

That being said, it behooves Kenpoists to learn basic grappling positions and escapes so that the Kenpoist can regain the stand-up, regain the top, or at least gain enough space from which to strike effectively.

yes I would agree with you for the most part. I wrestled a bit in high school, so I do have an understanding of the fundamentals.

Although I would say this, It doesn't take alot to take out a fighter of any style. I had a friend who was a grappler and wanted to show me how superior grappling was. so we squared off and I waited for him to make his move. He came in and I gave him a GENTLE two finger eye poke..*L...he immediately stopped, covered his eye and bent over in pain. The point is not to say kenpo is better but that it anyone can be vulnerable to a strike like that...or a groin shot...or a throat strike..etc.

 

[redfang]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Redfang: Can you tell us more about the shootfighting training, techniques, how much time, drills, how you graft shootfighting to Kenpo, etc. I'm very interested.

There are really two parts to what we do. One is with add ons to existing kenpo techniques. For example: Take the brown belt technique double blades, a pretty straight forward club defense with a double block and a chop. To this we would add an arm drag takedown that would transition into a T arm bar. Thats how the add ons work, a lot of students just practice with the add ons.

For those that are interested in MMA or shootfight tournaments we practice differently. We'll have sessions that just focus on striking or grappling and then those that blend the two. For striking we run long kicking drills with partners. Round kick to the thigh, partner shin blocks, back and forth. Then we'll add some hand strikes or maybe a takedown. Then towards the end we might just spar.

For grappling only, we run two man drills to work on transitions. One might go like this: A throws a kick, B comes in under it and does a single leg takedown, A goes to guard B passes the gaurd and goes to a calf lock, A scoots up and grabs opponents ankles and reverses in an arm bar etc. Until both parties might have gone through ten or so movements.

We we'll have two men grapple and one work just defense and one offense. We'll have both go all out. We'll add striking with about 70% strength. It's pretty comprehensive. Shootfighting makes use of a great number of submissions as well as a lot of standard wrestling takedowns, double leg, single leg, usual stuff.