Insights into Kenpo and Crosstraining

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Machine: You are right. Cross-training they are different things. You can do Kenpo training with a fully resisting parter, but it is not core to the style the way it is in boxing, kickboxing, Judo, and BJJ. Those systems also have different techniques. By crosstraining, you get the benefit of both new techniques and new training methods you can incorporate into your Kenpo practice.

 

[Kenpomachine]

I see your point. But I also want to make sure that you realize that the training methodology depends on the person teaching, not the system, art or style. FWIW.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kenpomachine:

training methodology depends both upon person and style. For instance, some styles have no sparring, some have no Kata. An instructor could introduce those missing methods into his style, but that would be somewhat unusual.

Styles also have their emphasis. I posted somewhere here (I think in the Developing Effective Techniques thread) that Kenpo innovated by practicing techniques independently from Kata and by introducing contact. But (I think) most Kenpo schools don't teach you to execute Kenpo techniques against a fully resisting partner. Sure, almost all Kenpo schools do generic Karate freestyle sparring, but not Kenpo technique sparring. Kenpo technique practice is what makes Kenpo Kenpo. Nobody does it like Kenpoists do. If you go to most Kenpo schools, you will find very similar approaches to technique training. Same if you go to a Judo club, Shotokan Dojo, or BJJ academy. Instructors can make a big difference, but the style is a very key driver of training method.

 

[twinkletoes]

Maybe we should call them something like this:

Crosslearning: taking classes in multiple martial arts. Learning multiple curricula. Think "supplemental information"

Crosstraining: developing skills in multiple styles, or varying approaches to martial art. Think "supplemental skill development"

Crossapplying: introducing the skills, ideas, or methods learned in one art/style into another, in order to alter the development of skills in the latter. This can go both ways. Think "co-beneficial development"

I think that we (the strong advocates of "crosstraining") are really saying is this:

Crosslearning is not entirely necessary. It might be a good idea to learn some new techniques and add them to your repertoire.

Crosstraining is good for a martial artist who wants to be well-rounded. It will give him or her skills in a variety of fields.

Crossapplying is necessary for 2 groups fo people:

1) Martial Artists who crosstrain and feel their own training (as well as their students' training) would benefit from the idea exchange.

2) Martial Artists of a single style who want their art to be effective in a broad range of circumstances.

I should think that #1 is obvious. #2 might be less obvious. Here is why we advocate that so strongly:

We believe that it's OK to study a single style, even for self-defense purposes. We think there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. What we do object to, however, is the idea that being an expert in one style gives one the necessary knowledge to make judgements about another style. I'll give you an example.

Often I see articles in magazines with Wing Chun practitioners showing how to beat a wrestler/grappler. Usually it shows the "wrestler", who is another WC guy, executing the worst shoot or tie-up I've ever seen. The senior WC guy then punches him in the face or elbows him, and he falls down.

Well, speaking as one who trains with some wrestlers, if you ever tried to do this with them, you would land in a world of hurt. It just doesn't work. The WC guys don't know that, because they never tried it. That's what I object to.

I don't think anyone needs to go out there and get 5 black belts, or train in 20 styles, unless that's fun for that person. If you like that, go for it.

I think a person can train 1 or 2 styles, and if they train with enough variety of partners, and allow those partners to use whatever knowledge THEY have, everyone will grow into competent and effective martial artists.

Now, this is not the same as bringing a wrestler to class and telling him not to use his wrestling. If you make him play by your rules and take away his own personal advantages, then you lose the value of the experience. However, if you just say "can you stop me from hitting you when I do this?" and see what he does, you will have your eyes opened. Maybe he can, and maybe he can't. But that's what the experience is for.

If you do this, you will learn 2 things:

1) What the other guy might try to do to stop you from executing your game plan.

2) Other ideas or approaches that could be translated over into the techniques of your original style.

You will benefit vastly from these, without "changing" your base style or "crosstraining." But firmly believe it behooves all of us to at least do some "crossapplying."

~TT

 

[Brother John]

OFK & TT:
I understand where both of you are coming from, and sympathize.
But for the sake of the argument, let me take this tact....

Crosslearning/Crosstraining and Crossapplying could all fall under the category of dissipation of effort/attention/energies.

Wouldn't a person be better off to train in ONE thing, intensely, consistently for a LONG time???
If "No" (Which I presume you will say in light of all that's preceded) WHY?

What do you say?

Your Brother
John

 

[twinkletoes]

Bro John,

You mention a point that is often raised. Thank you for adding it in. I appreciate you playing Devil's Advocate.

I have to say that my personal view is that the question is a stupid one. It's kind of like saying that we shouldn't practice off of punches because it takes time away from practicing against grabs. What makes a martial art a complete package? What makes it more or less than what it should be?

I think there IS one thing we should always train intensely, consistently, and for a long time: self-defense in a large variety of realistic and plausible situations, approached in the most effective way possible.

And I think that to do that requires getting second opinions.

Thank you for your post, my friend.

~TT

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
Bro John,

I have to say that my personal view is that the question is a stupid one. It's kind of like saying that we shouldn't practice off of punches because it takes time away from practicing against grabs. What makes a martial art a complete package? What makes it more or less than what it should be?
~TT

STUPID???
Is that anyway to treat your brother???
.........
Just kiddin...
Anyway, I don't think it's stupid, I think that it's something that needs looked into. Maybe you feel the answer is obvious for you, but remember, we are talking about our individual choices in the way we train... your 'only' answer is YOUR only answer; and mine is mine.

Currently, it's not mine.

"It's kind of like saying that we shouldn't practice off of punches because it takes time away from practicing against grabs."
Actually, it's not anything like saying that. My art practices against punches, grabs, clubs, kicks, tackles, chokes, locks, knives and multiple attackers... and if I neglect any one of these my instructor and those I work out with will find that nerve and tweek it!!!! :sniper:

Try looking at it like this:
It's not a question of whether we should attend to other aspects of fighting...
It's not a question of whether we should look into what other arts/systems have to offer us...
The question is:
Do we train in more than one thing at one time in our lives..
OR
Do we train in and focus on gaining competency in one thing, using it as a base with which to interpret/assimilate other styles with...
This would be more logical I think. Take more time, but time's never been my concern in martial arts... I'm in this till I take my last kick and kick-off.
I think that Kenpo makes the IDEAL base, as it is founded in logic, we can then use not Kenpo... but what Kenpo gives us "LOGIC" to assimilate other elements from other places and ADD it to what we already know and are competent at.

Just like this computer I'm at...
It's base is Windows....
Versatile, designed to have attatchments by making sertain universal parameters that other software can plug into...
while running "Internet Explorere" (as I am now) I'm still running Windows.
Assimilate Jujutsu INTO your Kenpo Katate.
Assimilate Kali INTO your Kenpo.
Assimilate Tasmanian nose proding... INTO your Kenpo.
AFTER getting advanced...and REALLY good at YOUR KENPO.

Please let me know how that last one goes...The Tasmanian stuff is deadly.

Your Brother
John

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Brother John
OFK & TT:
I understand where both of you are coming from, and sympathize.
But for the sake of the argument, let me take this tact....

Crosslearning/Crosstraining and Crossapplying could all fall under the category of dissipation of effort/attention/energies.

Wouldn't a person be better off to train in ONE thing, intensely, consistently for a LONG time???
If "No" (Which I presume you will say in light of all that's preceded) WHY?

What do you say?

Your Brother
John

Bro John--First off, I love the pic!!

Ok, in response to spending time learning one thing. I see where you are coming from. Once you reach BB, the journey does not end--it actually it just beginning! I'm only speaking for myself here, but I look at it like this. I'm not getting any younger. There is so much out there that I would love to do. I originally started the arts for self confidence/defense. I had the chance during the course of my training to see a few different arts. Regardless of how long you are training in that one base art, if what you are looking for is not there, then why continue to devote 100% of your time looking, if you're never going to find it unless you begin to look at another art? Your quality of training depends on your Inst. You mention that your art addresses many different things. While Kenpo does the same, there are also things that it does not address. In order to round out my training, I've chosen to look outside of Kenpo. I work with a great group of BJJ guys, including TT, who gets his instruction from a fantastic grappler. I do my Arnis with a super group as well, and the Inst. gears the class towards what i'm looking for. As I have said before, crosstraining isn't for everybody. Some like it and some dont.

Anyway, enough of my rambling for now!

Mike

 

[twinkletoes]

Brother John,

I think we're on an interesting point here. After I post this I'll go start a new thread.

I don't mean that integrating, say, BJJ is something that should be included. I don't think there is any one thing that EVERYONE needs to add. I think there are considerations that everyone should probably make, which are "am I addressing common situations, which seem to include standup, clinch range, the ground, weapons, and multiple assailants?" It seems to me that these are things any art/style/system hoping to address self-defense should include.

Now, I like your windows example. When they upgrade Windows, how do they decide what the new version needs? Doesn't that mean bringing in new ideas or different approaches? Are the new ideas taken from somewhere else? I mean, many people are claiming that XP ripped off some ideas from Apple. Does that mean that Microsoft had a base idea, and then applied Apple's ideas? Does it mean that those ideas are not really "windows", but apple features in a Windows operating system? What is the difference between a new advance that is "truly windows" and one that is not?

Oh, and repeat that last paragraph with "kenpo" instead of "windows." If you add, say, an elbow destruction, is that really foreign to kenpo? Is it FMA within Kenpo? Is it now a part of kenpo? What if you add a technique that uses it?

~TT

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Brother John: You have an excellent point. There are only 24 hours in a day! You can only do so many things at once!

Here is what I recommend:

Beginners should stick with one art to get a base and develop some fundamentals.

Intermediate students (Blue/Green in Kenpo) should be ENCOURAGED to attend some seminars to gain exposure to other styles and should be SHOWN a few non-Kenpo techniques (e.g. mount escape, guard pass, armbar, hip throw).

Advanced students (Kenpo Brown Belts) should be REQUIRED to attend some seminars and DRILL some non-Kenpo techniques Even the local TKD McDojo (West Coast TKD) in Northern California does this!

Black Belts should REGULARLY attend seminars featuring other styles and DRILL in other techniques. This doesn't mean a daily or even weekly commitment to cross-training. It means a seminar every 3 or 4 months and practicing some techniques a couple times a month.

Now, for those of us who have taken their style as far as they can (for me, I will never get any better at Kenpo than I was in the early 90's for a lot of reasons many of which have nothing to do with Kenpo per se), switching gears and starting over in a new style could be a worthwhile endeavor.

 

[MartialArtsGuy]

Old Fat Kenpoka

There is a really good Kenpo Camp that goes on in Philly every year that invites instructors from everything from Sayoc Kali, various grappling styles, different kenpo organizations to things that deal with meditation, tai chi etc... I went a few years ago and I have to say it was unforgetable.

Your last post reminded me of it, and I had to bring it up because I thought it was great. I guess it fits in with this whole crosstraining thing. Ill get the info and post again.

 

[MartialArtsGuy]

Ok the camp was back in 02 and was hosted by Dawud Muhammad and breaks down like this.

Kevin Kuliga- various finger locks
Larry Tatum- kenpo techniques
Francisco Vigoroux- advanced footwork
Mike Lambert- extensions
Lee Epperson- Ground work
Dawud Muhammad- knives
Jill Tatum- stretching & meditating

People from everywhere were there. Martial Artists from California, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland and Chile were there.

If this is the type of thing that you are recommending people try, well than you have my support because this was one of the most awsome experiences I have had in the martial arts. Lots of sweat and on only 3 hours of sleep. I hurt the next day.

 

[MJS]

Sounds like a cool camp!!!

Mike

 

[Michael Billings]

Good to hear from you man.

Tasmanian nose proding...

These are the "secret" Techniques I have been waiting for all these years.

-Michael

 

[Michael Billings]

... actually, not to agree with you or anything, but your training "agenda" actually sounds close to what we do. And I do not advocate cross-training, but I do certainly encourage students to go to seminars and camps. At camps we have everyone from Boom-Boom Mancini to Machado in. We have had Wally Jay seminars and Bill Wallace seminars.

I guess what I do is what you might consider cross-training ... but I don't. Nor would I require it at Brown. Exposure to other Arts lets you develop Kenpo "solutions" to the various styles. You figure out real quick what works and what does not when grappling with a BJJ guy. You learn from him/her, or a greco-roman, or Silat guy, but it does not mean "Practice " their Art ... or do their drills.

I don't know, I guess I want to give students the freedom to explore and be exposed to other things, while I chose to teach American Kenpo, and graft or expand upon my interpretation of the Art. The standard is set by my Association, then anything extra I require or want to do, is up to me. We have some great BJJ guys and full contact kickboxers training in Kenpo, but to them, it is Kenpo that they would fight on the street with. They are very articulate regarding their reasons why.

1. The street is not the place to be rolling around on the ground trying to get a submission (unless you are law enforcement and reasonable force is the issue.)

2. Kickboxers and boxers limit targets and weapons. They say that if you train that way, that is what you will do on the street. They clearly deliniate the conditioning and power you get, but want to maintain the Kenpo response patterns (self-defense techniques) against multiple attackers and weapons. You do what you practice. They are concerned about the lack of variable responses when they are getting ready for a fight. When not fighting it is a little kickboxing and a lot of Kenpo.

Just my perspective. Exposure v. Cross-Training, two entirely different things.

-MB

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I agree with you Mr. Billings!

Exposure and cross-training are different. But after one is exposed, one needs to retain and develop the new knowledge. That is where cross-training adds value.

I also agree that Kenpo is the best for street-defense. Rolling on the sidewalk, parking lot, or next to a bar stool is a bad place to be!

It is the development of skills in grappling, kickboxing, and weapons that requires cross-training. If a Kenpo school can deliver that, great! If not, then guest instructors or visits to other schools can help advanced students become more well rounded.

Our Kenpo school joined ATAMA (American Teachers Association of the Martial Arts) and regularly attended seminars where we were exposed to Aiki-Jujitsu, kickboxing, TKD, Kung Fu, Shotokan, Arnis, small-circle jujitsu, accupressure, and even herbal medicine. We also had Duke Moore come in and teach all of the Black Belts and advanced students Zen Budokai Aiki-jujitsu on a regular basis for many months. This was a great complement to our Kenpo with lots of great finishes that made wonderful technique extensions. One of our most senior Black Belts was also competing in Escrima. He taught basic stick fighting techniques on Saturdays. We were all the better for both the exposure and the cross-training and it didn't detract from our Kenpo.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by twinkletoes

Now, this is not the same as bringing a wrestler to class and telling him not to use his wrestling. If you make him play by your rules and take away his own personal advantages, then you lose the value of the experience. However, if you just say "can you stop me from hitting you when I do this?" and see what he does, you will have your eyes opened. Maybe he can, and maybe he can't. But that's what the experience is for.

If you do this, you will learn 2 things:

1) What the other guy might try to do to stop you from executing your game plan.

2) Other ideas or approaches that could be translated over into the techniques of your original style.

You will benefit vastly from these, without "changing" your base style or "crosstraining." But firmly believe it behooves all of us to at least do some "crossapplying."

~TT

Here I agree, but it goes both ways, why should we go by their rules? AS you say, if you try to play by their rules, they won't be learning from YOUR experience.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Brother John
Assimilate Jujutsu INTO your Kenpo Katate.
Assimilate Kali INTO your Kenpo.
Assimilate Tasmanian nose proding... INTO your Kenpo.
AFTER getting advanced...and REALLY good at YOUR KENPO.

:asian: :asian:
That's exactly what I think to. Very well put into words, brother John

 

[twinkletoes]

Here I agree, but it goes both ways, why should we go by their rules? AS you say, if you try to play by their rules, they won't be learning from YOUR experience.

I don't think we should go by their rules. I think you should play your game, they should play theirs, and we should see what happens. That's how you find out if a) your gameplan really works against theirs, b) their gameplan really works against yours, and c) everything in the middle. you also learn d) what ideas are present in both gameplans, and e) what ideas you each might "borrow" from each other to try.

The trick is being able to let go of your familiar rules and go to a system that is much more lenient for the both of you.

This past weekend I got to do some light sparring against someone with an extensive JKD, Muay Thai, and Savate background. My own sparring experience has not included leg kicks. Let's just say it was SERIOUSLY eye-opening. I had some idea how different it would be, but as far as the actual tactics go, I had no idea how much it would change my approach, both offensively and defensively.

~TT

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
I don't think we should go by their rules. I think you should play your game, they should play theirs, and we should see what happens. That's how you find out if a) your gameplan really works against theirs, b) their gameplan really works against yours, and c) everything in the middle. you also learn d) what ideas are present in both gameplans, and e) what ideas you each might "borrow" from each other to try.

I'll but this (I think exactly the same, but I don't consider it cross-training, you see)

Originally posted by twinkletoes
The trick is being able to let go of your familiar rules and go to a system that is much more lenient for the both of you.

I agree with letting go familiar rules as they only make you use a part of your arsenal and not all of them. I'll remain within the boundaries of my system, though, because that's were I have the proficiency. Sparring with them will only help me to expand those boundaries further away

Originally posted by twinkletoes
This past weekend I got to do some light sparring against someone with an extensive JKD, Muay Thai, and Savate background. My own sparring experience has not included leg kicks. Let's just say it was SERIOUSLY eye-opening. I had some idea how different it would be, but as far as the actual tactics go, I had no idea how much it would change my approach, both offensively and defensively.

~TT

I have also trained with TKDist, and I don't see it. We share the same weapons and we are more used to use the hands as well. It was enlightening for them receiving punches to the head.:rofl: :rofl:

Now seriously, I also learnt from them some things, but that was only because the teacher was a good one who knew his stuff and used a big variety of drills and kicks we usually don't train so often, and also helped me to avoid a clash between styles.

But I still think it was more of incorporating training drills into my style than proper crosstraining.

JJ may be different, because it's not so heavily competition oriented. And they try to close the distance early on. So then, it's a matter of tactics and strategy and countering that strategy.

And whatever drill I find useful, I may incorporate into my kenpo training. That's what semminar are for, to get new ideas to work on

Btw, have I said before that I have always wanted to train traditional Ju-jutsu? Problem is, I have delicate joints :rofl: