inside out versus the crescent kick

[terryl965]

In the sport of TKD the inside/out or outside/in kick is used alot, I also teach the crescent kick for some of my students which do you prefer and for what reasons.
Terry

 

[Martial Tucker]

Not sure I'd use either in a real fight, but when sparring, I like to use the "outside-in" crescent kick to attack my opponent's lead hand (from the outside), particularly if he is holding it fairly stationary, and relatively far out from his body. This will either clear the hand out of the way, allowing me to move in safely with further strikes, or it will turn his body away from me, giving me his side/back and an attack position of relative safety. Hopefully, it will also put a "stinger" on his hand, making a less effective weapon for him for awhile.

As for the inside-out kick, I typically use it if my opponent is facing me in a backstance. I start it off like a snap-kick, and try to loop my toes in between his elbows to attack the solar plexus.

 

[jacktnicol]

At our club we are always told to use the inside to out this because in doesn't leave your body open for an attack (such as a well placed push kick that could knock you down). So from white belt we practise it in to out for the protection the leg provides before the kick full extented.

J.N.

 

[Last Fearner]

...the inside/out or outside/in kick...., I also teach the crescent kick.... which do you prefer and for what reasons.

Hello Master Stoker,

When you mentioned the "inside/out" or "outside/in" kicks. Are you referring to the Ax kick that approaches from those directions, or do you mean the two crescent kicks (Bandal An Chagi, and Bandal Bakgat Chagi) that move in those directions as well?

The Ax kicks are used a lot in competition, or "sport TKD," as you mentioned. When I was a young competitor in the 1970s, I rarely saw anyone use the "Ax kick" in a tournament, because once your leg is high in the air, you have little control over it, except to bring it down. Most fighters knew how to either deflect, or side-step the attack and counter.

In the 1990s, I noticed many fighters using the Ax kick effectively (usually moving from an outside to inward direction). Apparently, it had been out of the loop long enough that people were intimidated when it came at them, and tended to not know how to respond. However, I do prefer the crescent kicks over the Ax kick.

In competition and real-life self defense, I favor the outward crescent kick (bandal bakgat chagi - moving from inside to out) because an opponent will expect the right leg, for instance, to attack from the right, striking the left side of their body or head. The outer crescent kick changes that approach, switches over and strikes from the opposite side (IE: right outer crescent striking the right side of their head). It also approaches in their blind spot, beneath their lead arm. The first they notice it is when the foot pops up over their shoulder by their face - - by then it's too late.

On the other hand (or foot, as it were ) Inward crescent kicks are good for deflecting a linear attack in real self defense (especially on the outside of the elbow). I have also used the spin outer crescent kick in a real self defense encounter, and dropped the person with that one kick.

CM D. J. Eisenhart

 

[Fluffy]

I tend use an Ax kick allot, as an adapted outside "snap" crescent. So, I'd say crescent, and I think that the more prevalent kick through the ITF as well.

 

[IcemanSK]

I prefer the inside crescent kick to set up a spinning hook kick when sparring. I love the outside crescent kick too (cuz it always makes me think of "Billy Jack" )!

I gained a lot of respect for the Ax kick when I saw the '88 Korean Olympic Team in a US tour a few months after the Olympics. They were fighting winners of a tourney in my state (& a few US Olympians). One Korean fighter (I don't know his name) threw an AX kick that landed on the face of his oponent & drove him (off his feet) straight to the matt! The entire crowd was awstruck. The US fighter was ok, but completely outclassed.

 

[Gemini]

Master Eisenhart, Please explain the spin outer crescent kick and how it differs from a regular spin kick. I've never heard of it and it sounds interesting.


To Terry's question. From a left foot forward fighting stance, I use a front foot ax as a lead that works well under the right conditions. From a clutch or extremely close range, I use an O/I Crescent kick (while jumping back slightly for correct distance) that has netted me more points than any other kick. The success being as M. Eisenhart' mentioned, it comes from their blind spot and by the time they see it, it's too late.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Friday I used the outside-in crescent kick in sparring. We were in close, possible a situation to clinch, but my opponent didn't really seem to want to clinch much, so I shifted my left leg back a bit, and brought my right leg up ina sweep to scresent kick him in the side of the head....

I actually use the both inside out and outside in crescent kicks a lot as part of diversion. I'll use an front-leg inside-out as a closing move that occupies attention which is really used to setup a rear leg roundhouse or sidekick, for example. I use the same general closing with an outside-in crescent kick to set up a spin kick of some sort.

For come clarity, I thnk of several different kicks and here's how I break them down

Ax Kick #1 - I would call this the sweep-ax kick as your leg ispretty straight and you swing it up to the outside and then down the middle of the target. I suppose you could bring it up on the inside, crossing over, but I haven't really tried that
Ax Kick #2 - I would call this the snap-ax kick as you start out like a snap kick with the bent knee pointed at the target, but you go a bit high and then extend the leg and drive the foot straight down into the target.

Both Ax kicks have the same finish, you are driving the foot (heel or ball depending...) down into the target with a straight leg, just different ways of getting the leg/foot to that position

Same with the crescent kick The cresenct kick is going to end up with the side of the foot hitting the target. This came be accomplished by sweeing the foot up with a straight leg, or by using a snap/front kick motion directed at the target with a knee twist at the end to hit with the side of the foot from the side, rather than the ball of the foot

 

[Last Fearner]

Master Eisenhart, Please explain the spin outer crescent kick and how it differs from a regular spin kick. I've never heard of it and it sounds interesting.

Hello Gemini,

It is possible that you already know this kick, but we use different terminology. The basic kicks (IE, front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, etc.) can be done with the front leg or back leg. Basic spin kicks are, of course, done with the back leg.

First, I will describe two basic spin kicks, which you probably already know well: The spin side kick, and the spin hook kick.

When standing in a right fighting stance (right leg back/left leg forward), the spin side kick is executed by lifting the back leg while transfering your weight to the front leg as you turn toward your back direction (in this case, clockwise for a right spin kick). The body stops at a side position, with the right hip in line with the target, as the side kick is thrust out to the target. This is, of course, done smoothly and is sometimes modified for speed by having the foot and leg lead the rotation, and the body follows, or for power by having the head and torso rotate first, and the leg follows.

For a spin hook kick, the same process is started, but the side kick motion is locked just off target (about 6 inches before impact). After the kicking knee is locked, the knee is then bent as the hips continue to rotate from right to left, across the target line in a sidways position and striking with the back 1/4 of the bottom of the heel (sorry for the rudimentary description of these kicks - I just wanted to be sure we were on the same page in our performance of the spin kicks).

The "Spin Outer Crescent Kick" starts the same way, except that your body remains upright as you rotate your head, then shoulders, then torso, then hips in a complete circle forcing your leg to follow in a whipping fashion. The kicking knee (back leg) is pulled up in a bent position, like the cocked position of a front kick, as you turn clockwise. As your knee crosses the target line in a left to right pass, the leg is snapped out straight, performing a standard outward crescent kick, striking with the outer edge of the right foot. ("foot sword").

At impact, your hips should be facing square to the target (belt knot pointing at your opponent), with the torso and shoulders twisted slightly beyond the target, still torquing and pulling the kick through. After impact, the kicking knee is bent back to re-chamber the kick, and then placed on floor behind you, where it started. The entire kick is done in one swift, rotating pivot on the ball of the supporting foot. It is a full 360 degree turn with the kick striking at the 180 degree halfway point of the circle.

I hope this is a relatively clear explanation of what I have been taught is a "Spin Outer Crescent Kick", or "Momtong Dolyo, Bandal Bakgat Chagi." Let me know if this is a kick you use, and by what name you call it. Others are free to chime in, and do the same!

CM D. J. Eisenhart

 

[TigerWoman]

I've been working on the inside (to out) crescent kick and am finally getting some power behind it. I also like 360 inside crescent as it hard to see coming. Probably the only one I surprise with, when sparring my instructor. TW

 

[FearlessFreep]

I was shown the Spin Outer Crescent kick by a frined of mine awhile back, as he had trained at a different school then me and I had not learned it. I don't practice it and haven't used it...but I've tried it a few times

 

[terryl965]

When you mentioned the "inside/out" or "outside/in" kicks. Are you referring to the Ax kick that approaches from those directions, or do you mean the two crescent kicks (Bandal An Chagi, and Bandal Bakgat Chagi) that move in those directions as well?

I mean the two crescent sorry if was not clear on the matter.
terry

 

[Tarot]

I prefer the outside-in cresent kick. I learned the inside-out while I was taking some trial classes at a new dojo and I must say I dislike that kick a lot. For me, it's really awkward to execute. It does not feel like a natural kick.

 

[wynnema]

i've always felt the outside-in was a little awkward as it closes the hips whereas the inner to outer crescent kick very much opens up the hips and generates more power. Also it can build up great stored elasticity in your hips for a roundhouse immedately after the foot touches the ground.

 

[TigerWoman]

I prefer the outside-in cresent kick. I learned the inside-out while I was taking some trial classes at a new dojo and I must say I dislike that kick a lot. For me, it's really awkward to execute. It does not feel like a natural kick.

Because you are using the inner quad, the VM muscle, it is hard to achieve much power in the kick at first, particularly for women. It does take some practice to have the strength to bring it up and across for the snap. I found that lifting weights, 4-8 lbs. wraparound, sitting down raise your leg 8-10", other leg bent on floor. Turn you foot/leg outward and lift and hold with knee locked 10 sec./10 reps. It helped develop this inside quad muscle more. Actually I started this exercise for my knee as the other three were over powering the inner and as a result, pulling my knee out of joint. That was bad when I had to land a jump and the knee wasn't where it was supposed to be. So this developed alot of my leg strength, or you could just practice the inside to out crescent kick alot more. But once you develop the power, it is a very effective kick close in. TW

 

[wynnema]

Because you are using the inner quad, the VM muscle, it is hard to achieve much power in the kick at first, particularly for women. It does take some practice to have the strength to bring it up and across for the snap. I found that lifting weights, 4-8 lbs. wraparound, sitting down raise your leg 8-10", other leg bent on floor. Turn you foot/leg outward and lift and hold with knee locked 10 sec./10 reps. It helped develop this inside quad muscle more. Actually I started this exercise for my knee as the other three were over powering the inner and as a result, pulling my knee out of joint. That was bad when I had to land a jump and the knee wasn't where it was supposed to be. So this developed alot of my leg strength, or you could just practice the inside to out crescent kick alot more. But once you develop the power, it is a very effective kick close in. TW

or you could just squat. i'm not a fan of isolation exercises, if you want to develop leg strength then compound exercises are far more useful. of course yours is an unusual case, but for the average person they would be better with squats.

 

[TigerWoman]

or you could just squat. i'm not a fan of isolation exercises, if you want to develop leg strength then compound exercises are far more useful. of course yours is an unusual case, but for the average person they would be better with squats.

Squats are better for the hamstrings and for the jumping part. The hamstrings bring the leg up from a squat. Try doing a bunch 100-200 and walking down the stairs. The hamstrings are weakened and so they don't support your weight going down as well. Squats will do nothing for the VM inner thigh muscle which is harder to get to. The other three muscles of the quad tend to do all the work (over-power) and doing the inside to out, pretty much uses that inner quad muscle. If its not strong, then it is an awkward kick. My exercise is just a short cut to strengthening without doing a ton of awkward kicks to begin with, in trying to get the leg up and horizontally over. TW

 

[wynnema]

Squats are better for the hamstrings and for the jumping part. The hamstrings bring the leg up from a squat. Try doing a bunch 100-200 and walking down the stairs. The hamstrings are weakened and so they don't support your weight going down as well. Squats will do nothing for the VM inner thigh muscle which is harder to get to. The other three muscles of the quad tend to do all the work (over-power) and doing the inside to out, pretty much uses that inner quad muscle. If its not strong, then it is an awkward kick. My exercise is just a short cut to strengthening without doing a ton of awkward kicks to begin with, in trying to get the leg up and horizontally over. TW

squats do very little for the hamstrings, they mainly target the quads. The deadlift and good morning target the hamstrings - as well as the lower back. And to improve a specific kick, the best exercise you can do is to actually practisce that kick. Doing the kick slowly will help with the strength aspect.

 

[TigerWoman]

squats do very little for the hamstrings, they mainly target the quads. The deadlift and good morning target the hamstrings - as well as the lower back. And to improve a specific kick, the best exercise you can do is to actually practisce that kick. Doing the kick slowly will help with the strength aspect.

Well, I agree with you about doing the actual kick and doing it slowly is great. But try kicking to head level and across slowly. Its difficult even for one who can already execute the kick fast so as a training aid for a beginner, not so good. Still disagree that squats are for the quads, they are more to do with the hamstrings. My quads can be dead tired and I still can do squats if my hamstrings are not. If you do a ton of axe kicks until you are tired, you can still go down in a squat. The hamstrings make it possible to keep you there and to come up. Deadlifts and good mornings are for the upper body not the hamstrings.

But I do believe in Taekwondo, the hamstrings should be about 70-80% of the strength of the quads. So beside working on the VM quad muscle for regular inside crescents, you should also develop the hamstrings especially if you are doing jumping kicks as in jump inside crescent. TW

 

[wynnema]

Well, I agree with you about doing the actual kick and doing it slowly is great. But try kicking to head level and across slowly. Its difficult even for one who can already execute the kick fast so as a training aid for a beginner, not so good. Still disagree that squats are for the quads, they are more to do with the hamstrings. My quads can be dead tired and I still can do squats if my hamstrings are not. If you do a ton of axe kicks until you are tired, you can still go down in a squat. The hamstrings make it possible to keep you there and to come up. Deadlifts and good mornings are for the upper body not the hamstrings.

But I do believe in Taekwondo, the hamstrings should be about 70-80% of the strength of the quads. So beside working on the VM quad muscle for regular inside crescents, you should also develop the hamstrings especially if you are doing jumping kicks as in jump inside crescent. TW

Hi TW.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the squats but regarding deadlifts and goodmorning being exercises for the upper body, sorry that is completely wrong. Both these exercises target mainly the lower back and hamstrings.