Indian girl uses Karate to defend herself. Is Karate an effective martial art for self defense?

[Dirty Dog]

Thanks for the detailed info.

I wonder how much that curriculum has evolved over the last two decades, since the advent of the UFC. Prior to that time I had seen (in books, demos, videos, and from visiting classes) plenty of stand-up grappling (throws, armlocks, and wristlocks) from practitioners of Karate and TKD, but exactly zero ground grappling. No mount/side mount/guard. No leglocks on the ground. None of that. The closest would be techniques where the karateka would be standing or kneeling over a downed opponent while applying a submission.

This matches what I was taught in the 70's in TKD dojangs. Plenty of joint locks, throws, takedowns, etc. But no rolling on the ground.

 

[ballen0351]

I don't even train karate and I agree that Goju Ryu has grappling, based on what I've seen of it.

So by default Goju is Karate so Karate has Grappling

The problem is that people are using "grappling" to mean different things and that's where a lot of the arguments are coming from*. My definition of grappling is fairly broad. Other people have more restrictive definitions. Rather than going around in circles debating definitions of very broad terms, it makes sense to communicate more specifically what sort of training we're talking about.

Grappling is grappling. The level of advanced techniques may differ but grappling even in its most basic level is grappling.

*(Much of the rest probably comes from the broadness of the umbrella term "karate", which covers a multitude of different practices.)

True so when speaking of "Karate" as a whole then if a few styles have grappling like Goju the "Karate" has grappling. If someone said a specific style dosnt grapple well thats a possibility but "Karate" in general does

 

[lklawson]

so your calling 3 of the top Martial Artists of the last 100 years liars......cool

Is this how you debate? I didn't call anyone a liar. In fact I specifically said that I hope it's true. What I asked for was specific details which you refuse to give and in fact have told me that I don't have the right to ask for them. Well in fact, I do have the right to ask for them. You made a claim I just want you to give me evidence of the claim. I really do hope that is true I want it to be true. The fact that you gave me a quote by some famous people doesn't give me any more actual evidence. Famous people say famous things. It doesn't prove anything.

<sheesh>

 

[lklawson]

Honestly, I come from a Korean Karate background,

To be honest, the fist art I studied was TSD.

In my own style, as in most kata based styles, the art is, to a certain extent, what you make it, so I'll take the set of 100 applied techniques that everyone is required to learn and practice and test on, rather than the 381713847183 applied techniq

Thanks. That's the sort of information I was requesting.

Be interesting to see some other Karate-ka TKDers give some rough breakdowns.

I very much hope so.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[ballen0351]

Is this how you debate? I didn't call anyone a liar. In fact I specifically said that I hope it's true. What I asked for was specific details which you refuse to give and in fact have told me that I don't have the right to ask for them. Well in fact, I do have the right to ask for them. You made a claim I just want you to give me evidence of the claim. I really do hope that is true I want it to be true. The fact that you gave me a quote by some famous people doesn't give me any more actual evidence. Famous people say famous things. It doesn't prove anything.

<sheesh>

Quit crying. You want to learn go sign up for Goju classes and learn grappling. Or don't indont care
<sheesh>

 

[lklawson]

Quit crying. You want to learn go sign up for Goju classes and learn grappling. Or don't indont care
<sheesh>

That's about enough of that. <sigh> Meet my ignore list. Congratulations, you're the only poster on MT to ever make it there.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Be interesting to see some other Karate-ka TKDers give some rough breakdowns.

The seems like it needs its own thread.

 

[ballen0351]

That's about enough of that. <sigh> Meet my ignore list. Congratulations, you're the only poster on MT to ever make it there.

NOOOO not the ignore list. You basically said Kano doesn't know grappling, or Higaonna lied in his book about the meeting so your opinion means nothing to me good riddance

 

[Skullpunch]

You basically said Kano doesn't know grappling, or Higaonna lied in his book about the meeting

You seriously need to consider looking into a Hooked on Phonics subscription or something.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In this extract from his book, “The History of Karate: Okinawan Goju” (May 1996), Morio Hiagonna tells us the tale of a meeting in the 1930s where Jigoro Kano (founder of Judo) and Chojun Miyagi (founder of Goju-Ryu karate) discussed grappling and groundwork in karate:

“When they spoke later Kano Sensei asked, "Are there ne-waza (ground fighting techniques) in karate?" Miyagi explained that there are, along with nage waza (throwing techniques), shime waza (choking techniques) and gyaku waza (joint locking techniques). He then demonstrated some examples explaining the continual importance of harmonizing and focusing the breath. Kano was surprised to find that karate was much more than just punching and kicking techniques, but that it encompassed the depth of a complete martial art." – The History of Karate, Okinawan Goju-Ryu, Morio Hiagonna

so your calling 3 of the top Martial Artists of the last 100 years liars......cool

I'm not expressing an opinion either way on the accuracy of the quote from Mr. Higaonna's book, but someone certainly could question its veracity without calling anyone a liar.

To start with, we don't have statements here from Kano or Miyagi, so there's no question of calling either one of them liars. We only have what was written by Higaonno. Morio Higaonno was born in 1938, so he was certainly not a first hand witness to this conversation between Kano and Miyagi. Does the book explain exactly what his sources were in learning about the conversation between the two?

To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Higaonno is not a trained historian. He could certainly be honestly mistaken about what was said in a conversation that happened around the time he was born that he learned about second or third or fourth hand decades after the fact. Heck, even a trained historian could be mistaken about such things. Prominent martial artists make misstatements about martial arts history all the time.

BTW - I have no particular reason to doubt Mr. Higaonno's honesty, so I'm assuming that he was recounting the story as he believed it to be true. I should note, however, that prominent martial artists are no less likely to be liars than anyone else.

Personally, I would be more interested in the contents of Higaonno's series of Traditional Karate-do: Okinawa Goju Ryu books published from 1985 through 1991, before the advent of the UFC and the increased attention given to grappling. I would assume those would give a pretty good snapshot of Goju-Ryu as it was practiced at that time, including what sort of grappling techniques were taught. I'd be particularly interested in what they show regarding ne-waza. Do you happen to have any of those books in your collection?

 

[ballen0351]

You seriously need to consider looking into a Hooked on Phonics subscription or something.

Lol ok I'll gets write on it

 

[ballen0351]

I'm not expressing an opinion either way on the accuracy of the quote from Mr. Higaonna's book, but someone certainly could question its veracity without calling anyone a liar.

To start with, we don't have statements here from Kano or Miyagi, so there's no question of calling either one of them liars. We only have what was written by Higaonno. Morio Higaonno was born in 1938, so he was certainly not a first hand witness to this conversation between Kano and Miyagi. Does the book explain exactly what his sources were in learning about the conversation between the two?

To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Higaonno is not a trained historian. He could certainly be honestly mistaken about what was said in a conversation that happened around the time he was born that he learned about second or third or fourth hand decades after the fact. Heck, even a trained historian could be mistaken about such things. Prominent martial artists make misstatements about martial arts history all the time.

BTW - I have no particular reason to doubt Mr. Higaonno's honesty, so I'm assuming that he was recounting the story as he believed it to be true. I should note, however, that prominent martial artists are no less likely to be liars than anyone else.

Personally, I would be more interested in the contents of Higaonno's series of Traditional Karate-do: Okinawa Goju Ryu books published from 1985 through 1991, before the advent of the UFC and the increased attention given to grappling. I would assume those would give a pretty good snapshot of Goju-Ryu as it was practiced at that time, including what sort of grappling techniques were taught. I'd be particularly interested in what they show regarding ne-waza. Do you happen to have any of those books in your collection?

I don't personally own them but I do know someone that does and have looked at them however never specifically for grappling next time I see him I'll see what they have in them. I'm not sure the books matter either way since I train Goju with 2 different organizations and we do have grappling in both.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't personally own them but I do know someone that does and have looked at them however never specifically for grappling next time I see him I'll see what they have in them. I'm not sure the books matter either way since I train Goju with 2 different organizations and we do have grappling in both.

Does your grappling include newaza? That was the most interesting part to me of the original quote you posted. I've seen Goju practitioners demonstrate standup trapping, arm locks, and takedowns, but I don't recall ever seeing newaza in those demonstrations.

 

[ballen0351]

Does your grappling include newaza? That was the most interesting part to me of the original quote you posted. I've seen Goju practitioners demonstrate standup trapping, arm locks, and takedowns, but I don't recall ever seeing newaza in those demonstrations.

really basic stuff but not like Judo or BJJ what I've learned I stay up off the ground but my opponent is on the ground and I'm controling them from above with arm bars, wrist locks, there is one bunkai where you hold head of an opponent on the ground as you kinda squat down but I also have no where near the knowledge of Goju like many others especially Higaonna who put me on my butt with a finger lock during a grappling portion of a seminar i took with him. Like I said a few pages back I'm not entering any Naga comps and winning with the grappling we have in Goju it's more used to set up strikes or to break joints.

 

[Hanzou]

Hapkido is cool, and BJJ is a sport, and a dueling art. Dueling arts are nice, but there is an assumption it is, and will always be, one on one.

No one makes the assumption that you're always going to be fighting one person. Bjj adjusts itself for multiple attackers just like any other MA would.

About grappling in Karate;

So where does all of this leave us? The fact is that there is a huge amount of historical references to karate grappling and in writing this article I was truly spoilt for choice. It was very difficult for me to choose which references to use and which ones to leave out. Interest in karate's grappling methods was certainly greatly amplified by the rise of the UFC and MMA. However, there is no escaping the fact that karate grappling was around for a very long time before 1993. The majority of the texts referenced in this article were published many decades prior to that date. However, we need to be 100% clear that the grappling of karate is not comparable to the highly skilled grappling exhibited by MMA practitioners. It is, by design, very crude by comparison and as I said in the year 2000 in my Karate's Grappling Methods book, “If your aim is to compete in sport grappling, or to posses the skills needed to out wrestle a trained grappler, then it would be prudent to take up a dedicated grappling art.” - See more at: Karate Grappling: Did It Really Exist? | Iain Abernethy

That comes from Iain Abernathy (sp?). Makes sense, and explains why you don't see karate practitioners entering grappling competitions with karate "grappling".

 

[Touch Of Death]

No one makes the assumption that you're always going to be fighting one person. Bjj adjusts itself for multiple attackers just like any other MA would.

About grappling in Karate;



".

So, you know, for certain, nobody tries to grapple in a multiple opponent situation?

 

[Hanzou]

So, you know, for certain, nobody tries to grapple in a multiple opponent situation?

You can grapple in a multiple opponent situation. The issue is taking someone to the ground in a multiple opponent situation.

Throwing people onto concrete for example has a very good chance of ending confrontations very quickly.

 

[Buka]

Throwing people onto concrete for example has a very good chance of ending confrontations very quickly.

I think a lot of folks tend to forget this, because we're all used to break fall. Yes, I know people can spring right back up.....sometimes.

 

[Hanzou]

I think a lot of folks tend to forget this, because we're all used to break fall. Yes, I know people can spring right back up.....sometimes.

Yeah, even on the mat I've landed wrong a few times, and it banged me up to the point where I had to sit out a round or two.

Landing on concrete like that? I'd be out for a few days.

 

[Paul_D]

Karate's Grappling Methods: Amazon.co.uk: Iain Stuart Abernethy, Peter Skillen: 9780953893201: Books

However broad or narrow your interpretation of "grappling" is I think you would be hard pushed to argue that not one single chapter of this book covers something which falls within your interpretation of grappling. The conclusion therefore is that karate does include grappling.

Chapter 1 Kata & Bunkai
Chapter 2 The Role of Grappling in Self Defence
Chapter 3 Close Range Strikes
Chapter 4 Throws & Takedowns
Chapter 5 Chokes & strangles
Chapter 6 Arm Bars
Chapter 7 Leg & Ankle Locks
Chapter 8 Neck Wrenches
Chapter 9 Wrist Locks
Chapter 10 Finger Locks
Chapter 11 Ground Fighting Skills
Chapter 12 Fighting Dirty
Chapter 13 Putting it al together
Chapter 14 Sparring
Chapter 15 Conclusion

How much of it you consider "grappling" and how much you do not, is purely a personal choice based on your interpretation of course.