I know there was a few minor groin shots and a head butt or two but I don't recall any fighter doing eye gouges or throat strikes in the early UFC. Perhaps you could point some out to me?
Indian girl uses Karate to defend herself. Is Karate an effective martial art for self defense?
- Thread starter Tom21
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Skullpunch
Green Belt
Throat strikes were allowed, it just turned out to be a lot harder to get a good shot on the throat than everyone thought it was going to be.
Eye gouges I believe were always illegal but there were guys who would've done so anyway if the opportunity had presented itself. Gerard Gordeau, for example. He tried to bite his way out of Royce's RNC at the finals of UFC 1 and rammed his thumb into Yuki Nakai's eye at Japan Vale Tudo in 1994 I believe - the latter technique was considered especially dirty considering he was like a foot taller and 80 lbs heavier than Nakai or something absurd like that. Amazingly enough, Nakai still managed to submit him and make it to the finals (after fighting for a combined total of like an hour and with both eyes swollen shut)
I think in UFC 1, eye gouges were not technically forbidden, but they were on a list of techniques that would cause the fighter using them to forfeit a portion of his purse for the fight.
There have been enough instances over the years of fighters (accidentally or deliberately) poking their opponents in the eye without getting immediately disqualified to confirm that in general
a) attacking the eyes can be very effective
b) it's still not any kind of guaranteed win or a substitute for overall fighting ability.
BTW - Gordeau is a scumbag and a psychopath. I'm very glad he retired from MMA after losing his first two fights.
lklawson
Grandmaster
OK, enough of this "Karate does have grappling/Karate doesn't have grappling" bullcrap.
Karateka, please do this; it will help qualify this argument and, hopefully, put to rest the entire thing.
1) Define what "grappling" means in the context of your art. Please be specific to include standing grabbing & hugging, takedowns, trips & throws, ground wrestling, joint locks & chokes and if they are taught standing or on the ground while wrastle'n.
2) Describe what grappling techniques your art teaches. A comprehensive or semi-comprehensive list would be helpful. The name and/or brief description of the technique and, again, if standing or ground wrastle'n. You know, "Rear Naked Choke, standing & ground," "Arm & Neck hip throw," and "mount and side-control." That kinda stuff.
3) Describe how the techniques are taught and practiced. Please include if the techniques are used in sparring and to what extent.
4) Describe when the techniques are taught in the general time-line of a student's training. Are they taught within the first few lessons or only after a certain belt-grade is achieved?
5) Please describe how often these techniques are trained during the normal course of training, such as "every class," or "a few times a month," or "occasionally during the year," or some similar description.
Thank you.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Karateka, please do this; it will help qualify this argument and, hopefully, put to rest the entire thing.
1) Define what "grappling" means in the context of your art. Please be specific to include standing grabbing & hugging, takedowns, trips & throws, ground wrestling, joint locks & chokes and if they are taught standing or on the ground while wrastle'n.
2) Describe what grappling techniques your art teaches. A comprehensive or semi-comprehensive list would be helpful. The name and/or brief description of the technique and, again, if standing or ground wrastle'n. You know, "Rear Naked Choke, standing & ground," "Arm & Neck hip throw," and "mount and side-control." That kinda stuff.
3) Describe how the techniques are taught and practiced. Please include if the techniques are used in sparring and to what extent.
4) Describe when the techniques are taught in the general time-line of a student's training. Are they taught within the first few lessons or only after a certain belt-grade is achieved?
5) Please describe how often these techniques are trained during the normal course of training, such as "every class," or "a few times a month," or "occasionally during the year," or some similar description.
Thank you.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
John Jones used them pretty effectively. But then he could also fight which is the trick here.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Throat strikes were permitted in the early UFCs, and even more was permitted in the Vale Tudo fights before that.
Again, the results didn't change much. The same arts that dominate in modern NHB dominated back then as well.
6) Specify what style of karate you practice.
7) If you have experience beyond your own dojo, please give your impression as to whether your answers for 1-5 apply just to your own dojo or are typical of what is widely practiced in your style.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Well, I agree, in that I think this thread has degenerated, unfortunately an all too common occurrence. I even show the OP's original post above. His last sentence does question Karate's usefulness in overcoming "bigger persons", so I guess some discussion on that is proper.
I do wonder why there is no great interest the plight of women in that area, or even in the plight of the young lady in question? That takes up more of the original post than the last sentence. I also wonder about the OP. Have we scared him off, or was he trolling? He has made only that one post.
Sandwiches.
They were permitted, but were they used?
Used throat strikes and eye gouges when?
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I'm not seeing how that is a relevant question. If they were allowed and weren't used, that should indicate that they weren't viewed as effective. On the other hand, maybe they were used, and again, weren't viewed as very effective.
The point remains; If you lack too many advantages in a conflict, using a bunch of "dirty tricks" isn't going to save your hide.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
if you feel its bullcrap you know your free to not read it right?
Then why did you bring it up?
That is only two possibilities. On the other hand maybe they were viewed as too effective and that is why they were not used. If they weren't viewed as effective then there would be no need to ban them. If I put a guy down in a self defence situation and I do not stomp my foot through his head is it because I don't think it will be effective or because I don't want to kill him?
One situation's dirty tricks is another situation's survival techniques.
In any case you are dodging the question; When Did Jon Jones use throat strikes and eye gouges? You are a stickler for wanting evidence that is not just anecdotal after all.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
poking someone in the eye isn't eye gouging
Is there a throat strike compilation? But done on purpose.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Not really. I could find a couple where people got dropped but that would be about it.
What about in the early UFC or Vale Tudo? You would probably know where to look more than I do.
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