Incoming punch - counter with block - inside or outside?

[lianxi]

JR 137 said "I don’t like the term block, as I think it’s too literal. I like deflect/parry more."

OP here - I keep thinking about this correction and like that you pointed it out - it shows how I've come to think of my practice movements a little too literally. The term 'block' is to me, one of my many rote exercises and seems to say it's a preset response - a one size fits all response, whereas to deflect or parry suggests a more fluid, spontaneous, improvised reaction to what's happening or about to happen. Funny how that change of term made me rethink my defensive response.

 

[JR 137]

JR 137 said "I don’t like the term block, as I think it’s too literal. I like deflect/parry more."

OP here - I keep thinking about this correction and like that you pointed it out - it shows how I've come to think of my practice movements a little too literally. The term 'block' is to me, one of my many rote exercises and seems to say it's a preset response - a one size fits all response, whereas to deflect or parry suggests a more fluid, spontaneous, improvised reaction to what's happening or about to happen. Funny how that change of term made me rethink my defensive response.

Something to keep in mind...

I’m not a Japanese speaker. My only Japanese language skills are dojo Japanese. That being said, I’ve heard several times from native Japanese and Okinawan speakers that the term uke, as in jodan uke/high block, is better translated as “receive” rather than “block.” Block isn’t an all-out bastardization of uke, but from this perspective it seems like it’s somewhat being butchered.

When I think of “block,” I think far closer to how boxers put their hands up and absorb the punches and/or striking the hand/arm/foot that’s coming at you. When I think “receive,” I think kind of along the lines of catching a water balloon or an uncooked egg; or as I said deflect/parry. Sure there’s a time for hard blocks, but far more often footwork and body movement combined with pushing the strike along the way is far more effective.

All IMO. I’m no expert. I’m sure someone who actually communicates in Japanese and/or Okinawan outside the dojo could improve on my interpretation and/or prove me completely wrong.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Something to keep in mind...

I’m not a Japanese speaker. My only Japanese language skills are dojo Japanese. That being said, I’ve heard several times from native Japanese and Okinawan speakers that the term uke, as in jodan uke/high block, is better translated as “receive” rather than “block.” Block isn’t an all-out bastardization of uke, but from this perspective it seems like it’s somewhat being butchered.

When I think of “block,” I think far closer to how boxers put their hands up and absorb the punches and/or striking the hand/arm/foot that’s coming at you. When I think “receive,” I think kind of along the lines of catching a water balloon or an uncooked egg; or as I said deflect/parry. Sure there’s a time for hard blocks, but far more often footwork and body movement combined with pushing the strike along the way is far more effective.

All IMO. I’m no expert. I’m sure someone who actually communicates in Japanese and/or Okinawan outside the dojo could improve on my interpretation and/or prove me completely wrong.

Also not a Japanese speaker - not even really fluent in Dojo Japanese. So I'm going to authoritatively add my tiny bit of knowledge.

In grappling, "uke" also refers to the person receiving the throw. "Ukemi waza" is the skills used as uke (falls, rolls, etc.). That seems to support your interpretation.

 

[JR 137]

Also not a Japanese speaker - not even really fluent in Dojo Japanese. So I'm going to authoritatively add my tiny bit of knowledge.

In grappling, "uke" also refers to the person receiving the throw. "Ukemi waza" is the skills used as uke (falls, rolls, etc.). That seems to support your interpretation.

Uke refers to the person receiving/defending the attack in karate too. The attacker is referred to as the tori (I’m not sure of the spelling there).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Uke refers to the person receiving/defending the attack in karate too. The attacker is referred to as the tori (I’m not sure of the spelling there).

Tori/dori (same word, pronunciation situational I've been told by someone who isn't entirely authoritative) I was taught referred to grip and thrower (which means it's either a conceptual word for "doing" or the words are different). We reverse the usage in NGA (and in Aikido, as I understand) - tori is the person executing the technique, uke is the person receiving it (thus, the one initiating the attack). Confusing, but both are logical - just applying "receiver" from the opposite perspective.

 

[Danny T]

Countering inside vs outside depends on a lot of factors, as mentioned previously.

And I don’t like the term block, as I think it’s too literal. I like deflect/parry more.

The thing is there are checks, jams, parries, blocks, and strikes all available within the same movement.
The problem with giving a movement a particular nomenclature such as 'block' then all the other potentials become overlooked, misunderstood, or even lost.

 

[Buka]

Something to keep in mind...

I’m not a Japanese speaker. My only Japanese language skills are dojo Japanese. That being said, I’ve heard several times from native Japanese and Okinawan speakers that the term uke, as in jodan uke/high block, is better translated as “receive” rather than “block.” Block isn’t an all-out bastardization of uke, but from this perspective it seems like it’s somewhat being butchered.

When I think of “block,” I think far closer to how boxers put their hands up and absorb the punches and/or striking the hand/arm/foot that’s coming at you. When I think “receive,” I think kind of along the lines of catching a water balloon or an uncooked egg; or as I said deflect/parry. Sure there’s a time for hard blocks, but far more often footwork and body movement combined with pushing the strike along the way is far more effective.

All IMO. I’m no expert. I’m sure someone who actually communicates in Japanese and/or Okinawan outside the dojo could improve on my interpretation and/or prove me completely wrong.

"Dojo Japanese" What a great term, JR.

 

[Danny T]

Something to keep in mind...

I’m not a Japanese speaker. My only Japanese language skills are dojo Japanese.

All IMO. I’m no expert. I’m sure someone who actually communicates in Japanese and/or Okinawan outside the dojo could improve on my interpretation and/or prove me completely wrong.

On top of that there are the many different Dojo Japanese dialects.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The thing is there are checks, jams, parries, blocks, and strikes all available within the same movement.
The problem with giving a movement a particular nomenclature such as 'block' then all the other potentials become overlooked, misunderstood, or even lost.

I see them as extensions and variations of each other. I use different terms for block/parry/deflection/redirection, but the terms overlap generously.

 

[oftheherd1]

No, for inside out, you have a different advantage. If you block his right forearm from the inside, with your left forearm... you can move it away from you and down. If you catch his right elbow with your right forearm and pull it towards you and up at the same time... either he gets both his feet in the air for a high back fall or a lot more range of motion in his shoulder... for a short period of time.

Blocking to the outside verses the inside is not as black and white as you are making it. One is not better than the other. Sure there are different opportunities and different dangers to each. Assuming you understand both sides, use the one that is appropriate for the situation. If you don't understand one side, go learn about it. Trying to force your favorite technique into a situation it does not belong in, will bite you sometime.

Good moves. Just a couple of variations: With the first block from the inside out, you might want to block and simultaneously grab his wristt with your right hand, forcing and keeping your left hand inside the crook of his elbow. Pull his wrist towards you and push back at the same time, to hyper-extend his elbow. If he decides to continue the fight, he has one less hand/arm to use. For the second you mentioned, step in to grab/deflect/block his and grab his right wrist with your right hand, then step back quickly and forcibly, lifting it up and then snapping it down. Done properly, you will slam his face/head onto the ground. A heel down kick (our terminology, I don't what you might call it or if you even have that kick) to his spine, if he can get up after all that, will probably have him thinking thoughts of peaceful resolutions to offer you.

 

[dvcochran]

An important consideration is your stance relative to your opponent. If you are open (bodies facing the same way), and they lead jab, which typically would be straight, an inside to outside lead hand block will open the opponent up even more without exposing your body. Advantage back leg kick/punch. In the same scenario, if you are a spinner, outside to inside block and back leg spin simultaneously. The block/spin should mildly carry you opponent forward into you kick.
If you are closed stance and quick with the front leg, inside to outside block and front, side, jam kick to the mid section is very effective. If you are a spinner close position and when you opponent move toward you (punch, step, etc...) throw a very tight spinning side kick to the mid section. Keep you back hand up as it will become your lead blocking hand. Don't want to remember how many times I have been kicked in the face because I forgot to keep my spinning hand up.
I always try to mentally stay 2-3 moves ahead when sparring. Play the "what if" game when sparring in class. Go through each scenario for lead hand and back hand relative to your position.
The outside to inside block is a much more natural and flowing movement allowing you to more easily move your opponent into the desired position.
The inside to outside block a is much more arresting or stopping motion. Think about the advantages & disadvantages of both relative to your position

 

[oftheherd1]

I see them as extensions and variations of each other. I use different terms for block/parry/deflection/redirection, but the terms overlap generously.

Its simple. If you stop the movement of a strike or kick with a blow to the striking object, directly against the movement, which few of our blocks do, then it is in fact a block. Now, as is more common, if you move a strike or kick enough to the side that it goes past you that is a parry. Oh, wait, is that a deflection? Well let's see what Marriam_Webster online says:
intransitive verb
1: to ward off a weapon or blow

• parried forcefully and knocked his opponent's sword out of his hand

2: to evade or turn aside something Deflect or redirect?

• can parry and thrust … without losing the thread of his argument
• —Stewart Cockburn

transitive verb
1: to ward off (something, such as a blow)

• parried the thrust of his opponent's sword

2: to evade especially by an adroit answer

• parried the question

OK, got it, now just to cinch the bet one more online dictionary, Cambridge Dictionary:

... to defend yourself from a weapon or an attack by pushing the weapon away or by putting something between your body and the weapon ?

Maybe gpseymour has it right, except gpseymour, what is the difference between a deflection and redirection. Help me here man, inquiring minds are all agog with the possibilities.

I need your help as I have certainly confused myself (an easy exercise)

 

[Danny T]

I see them as extensions and variations of each other. I use different terms for block/parry/deflection/redirection, but the terms overlap generously.

Ok...What about throws, takedowns, breaks, etc. utilizing the same movement/s?
For example a down block is throw. An inside block is an arm break. An upper block combined with an inside block creates a setup for a figure 4 shoulder lock. From there the down block creates a takedown.

 

[JR 137]

Going back to the original question of which way is better suit when to use each...

Get a partner. Have your partner throw a punch or kick. Block it. Both of you freeze and hold it. Analyze everything about it - what targets are available on both of you, which targets aren’t, are both of you close or far enough away for an effective counter/follow-up, which country’s are available and are they good counters, etc. Analyze the crap out of it.

Then do the same strike, but blocked another way. Repeat analysis.

Same blocks, but moving forward when blocking, moving backward, laterally, and circularly.

Now add multiple strikes coming at you. Did your initial blocks prevent them? Did they put you in an advantageous, dangerous, or neutral position? Just when you think you’ve got it all figured out, more punches come and everything changes again.

Analyze everything and every possibility. What’s most effective for you should determine what blocks you’re using, when you’re using them, and how you’re moving. What’s best for you might not be the best for anyone else.

The only thing you need is a partner who’s willing and just as interested. Sometimes that’s a bit hard to come by.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Its simple. If you stop the movement of a strike or kick with a blow to the striking object, directly against the movement, which few of our blocks do, then it is in fact a block. Now, as is more common, if you move a strike or kick enough to the side that it goes past you that is a parry. Oh, wait, is that a deflection? Well let's see what Marriam_Webster online says:
intransitive verb
1: to ward off a weapon or blow

• parried forcefully and knocked his opponent's sword out of his hand

2: to evade or turn aside something Deflect or redirect?

• can parry and thrust … without losing the thread of his argument
• —Stewart Cockburn

transitive verb
1: to ward off (something, such as a blow)

• parried the thrust of his opponent's sword

2: to evade especially by an adroit answer

• parried the question

OK, got it, now just to cinch the bet one more online dictionary, Cambridge Dictionary:

... to defend yourself from a weapon or an attack by pushing the weapon away or by putting something between your body and the weapon ?

Maybe gpseymour has it right, except gpseymour, what is the difference between a deflection and redirection. Help me here man, inquiring minds are all agog with the possibilities.

I need your help as I have certainly confused myself (an easy exercise)

Okay, here are my vague definitions (I purposely keep them vague, so they can overlap) and some notes on where they are vague and/or overlapping:

• Block: stopping a strike. This has both hard (force-on-force) and soft (invovles blending, and the striker doesn't feel "blocked", but never gets to target). The latter is part evasion, and almost always includes some redirection.
• Parry: A block that circles, causing the strike to cross over (high or low) to the other side of the body. A strong deflection, which requires redirection.
• Deflection: Similar to a block, with a dash of parry added, so the strike is blocked and sent down (but not fully parried). Can also apply to a soft block that has some "push away" added to it, to continue the strike's momentum forward (from the striker's perspective), which is a bit like a redirection.
• Redirection: similar to a deflection, but purposely causes a shift in the striker's momentum.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok...What about throws, takedowns, breaks, etc. utilizing the same movement/s?
For example a down block is throw. An inside block is an arm break. An upper block combined with an inside block creates a setup for a figure 4 shoulder lock. From there the down block creates a takedown.

I teach all blocks (the generalized "all" that doesn't really mean "all") have a down component, to start breaking structure, because the block/parry/redirect/deflection is actually the beginning of the throw. If the two are separate, you either got lucky, or he let you throw him.

 

[wab25]

Going back to the original question of which way is better suit when to use each...

Get a partner. Have your partner throw a punch or kick. Block it. Both of you freeze and hold it. Analyze everything about it - what targets are available on both of you, which targets aren’t, are both of you close or far enough away for an effective counter/follow-up, which country’s are available and are they good counters, etc. Analyze the crap out of it.

Then do the same strike, but blocked another way. Repeat analysis.

Same blocks, but moving forward when blocking, moving backward, laterally, and circularly.

Now add multiple strikes coming at you. Did your initial blocks prevent them? Did they put you in an advantageous, dangerous, or neutral position? Just when you think you’ve got it all figured out, more punches come and everything changes again.

Analyze everything and every possibility. What’s most effective for you should determine what blocks you’re using, when you’re using them, and how you’re moving. What’s best for you might not be the best for anyone else.

The only thing you need is a partner who’s willing and just as interested. Sometimes that’s a bit hard to come by.

I like what you are saying, especially the try it out and analyze it bit. (we really need to be doing that a lot more than we do)

However, I think the question is wrong. We should not be asking which is better as I think they are both needed, because they are different. I would add to your set up, block to the outside and follow up with a technique. Block to the inside and follow up with a technique. Analyze that follow up technique, get a small set that you can do using "muscle memory," and practice those a lot.

The issue is that in some situations you can block to the outside much easier than you can block to the inside and vice versa. Trying to force the "better" technique, when the situation is not set up for it is much more dangerous. Whether you should go outside or inside can be very subtle. A slight change in angle, your weight distribution and or momentum, what part of your foot work he catches you in, how he moves... so many things. I would rather learn both, and drill block and immediate response, in both directions... Then allow the right one to happen. Set up more drills, where one or more attacks are being made and learn to apply both. When you walk into something, analyze why and try again.

I just don't like saying one is better than the other here, as both can be very good when applied in the right situation. Let the situation determine how you respond.

 

[oftheherd1]

Going back to the original question of which way is better suit when to use each...

Get a partner. Have your partner throw a punch or kick. Block it. Both of you freeze and hold it. Analyze everything about it - what targets are available on both of you, which targets aren’t, are both of you close or far enough away for an effective counter/follow-up, which country’s are available and are they good counters, etc. Analyze the crap out of it.

Then do the same strike, but blocked another way. Repeat analysis.

Same blocks, but moving forward when blocking, moving backward, laterally, and circularly.

Now add multiple strikes coming at you. Did your initial blocks prevent them? Did they put you in an advantageous, dangerous, or neutral position? Just when you think you’ve got it all figured out, more punches come and everything changes again.

Analyze everything and every possibility. What’s most effective for you should determine what blocks you’re using, when you’re using them, and how you’re moving. What’s best for you might not be the best for anyone else.

The only thing you need is a partner who’s willing and just as interested. Sometimes that’s a bit hard to come by.

I like the idea except I would caution not to be too quick to say something is subjecting you to strikes or kicks without considering the speed of your defense and how much it will break your opponent's structure. I don't mean that to be insulting, but I see it so often here on MT where somebody jumps up and declares something will not work because at some point you are vulnerable. Maybe you are, and that is the point of the analysis, but don't be fooled by the stop for that analysis.

 

[JR 137]

I like what you are saying, especially the try it out and analyze it bit. (we really need to be doing that a lot more than we do)

However, I think the question is wrong. We should not be asking which is better as I think they are both needed, because they are different. I would add to your set up, block to the outside and follow up with a technique. Block to the inside and follow up with a technique. Analyze that follow up technique, get a small set that you can do using "muscle memory," and practice those a lot.

The issue is that in some situations you can block to the outside much easier than you can block to the inside and vice versa. Trying to force the "better" technique, when the situation is not set up for it is much more dangerous. Whether you should go outside or inside can be very subtle. A slight change in angle, your weight distribution and or momentum, what part of your foot work he catches you in, how he moves... so many things. I would rather learn both, and drill block and immediate response, in both directions... Then allow the right one to happen. Set up more drills, where one or more attacks are being made and learn to apply both. When you walk into something, analyze why and try again.

I just don't like saying one is better than the other here, as both can be very good when applied in the right situation. Let the situation determine how you respond.

I was thinking that stuff too, but I couldn’t post every single thought in my head. And some thoughts left as I was typing out others.

 

[JR 137]

I like the idea except I would caution not to be too quick to say something is subjecting you to strikes or kicks without considering the speed of your defense and how much it will break your opponent's structure. I don't mean that to be insulting, but I see it so often here on MT where somebody jumps up and declares something will not work because at some point you are vulnerable. Maybe you are, and that is the point of the analysis, but don't be fooled by the stop for that analysis.

It’s all about analysis IMO. Nothing you do is going to be 100% effective and zero risk. Move one way, you open up targets. Move the opposite way, there’s some new one. Don’t do anything, and you’ve got other open targets.

The analysis will show what’s open and what’s not. With this stuff, it’s picking your poison. Everything’s a trade-off. It’s a balance between protecting, attacking, and being mobile enough. And every opponent is going to change those priorities and force you to compensate for any of those aspects; a faster fighter vs a stronger fighter vs long reach fighter vs...

It’s all about trade offs. Least harm done to you and all that.