In the "Nor"Shadow of a lie

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Jerome,

Hmmmm, I think there was a misunderstanding. I thought I said there might be an issue with the .mil IP's, was not sure. Later when Tim Kashino explained in person to me, that he could also not log in from the cyber cafe, outside the base. I then told him to contact myslef with the details of the errors or better yet one of the Admins.

I did not mean to cloud the issue.


Richard Curren,

I believe you were not involved, until the end. I respect your adamant denile in person and here. You are someone who wishes to contribute to the Martial Arts' and Martial Talk Communities'.

:asian:

Hello Rich,

I understand what you said in person and above. There is no confusion or problem from my perspective, I just tried to report the fact of the problem with the .mil as best I could. There are other converstaions that I am unaware of and can not speak to from first hand knowledge so I did not mention them in my post.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

The following is the correspondence that was initiated by Lamont with me.


E-mail 1

Lamont Wrote
Datu Hartman,

Based on a couple of private e-mails that I have recently received and your earlier concerns that I might be a MT.com member with a duplicate membership, I am proposing the following idea. Put DocB and myself on your WMAA Philadelphia Camp Roster in October. We would like to have a full hour for presentation, the same as your other instructors. DocB will teach his hand tools program (palm stick, kubotan and Gunting Knife). I will teach Modern Arnis Largo Mano Single Stick. And before you ask, yes, I did train with Professor Presas at several camps and seminars.

All you will need to do is cover our travel expenses of $200. We will take care of our lodging and meals. Please indicate your agreement by Wednesday, June 4 2003. Thank you and I am looking forward to working with you in October.

Lamont Norshadow

E-mail 2

Hartman Wrote
Lamont-

I forwarded the e-mail to the camp hosts and discussed it with them on the phone last night. The response was that it was your responsibility to prove who you are and they wasn't going to pay you to prove it. I agree with them on this point. Rich Parsons (an MT.com Moderator) and myself (an MT.com Advisor) will be attending the Symposium. Introduce yourself to us and then we can very your existence. Since this is an MT matter it has NO barring on WMAA function. This is YOUR problem and YOU need to solve it.

Tim Hartman

E-mail 3

Lamont Wrote
Datu Hartman,

You're on! I will expect to see both you and Rich Parsons at the Symposium. THEN let's do the Philadelphia Camp. I knopw that I have some positive things to offer and teach. Very few Modern Arnis people are doing any type of largo mano style and I am ready and able to show it. It is something that Remy did spend a bit of time working with me on because I showed an interest in it.

Lamont Norshadow

E-mail 4

Hartman Wrote
Lamont-

there is really no need to go all the way to Philadelphia to prove that you are a real person. You have committed to attending the Symposium in July. I'm one of the presenters there, I would be more than happy to verify you existence to MT.com after meeting you.

Tim Hartman

E-mail 5

Lamont Wrote
Datu Hartman,

Let's do more than merely verify my existence for an internet forum. Let's have a real martial arts alliance and work together.

Lamont Norshadow

E-mail 6

Hartman Wrote
Lamont-

As of March 15, 2003 GM Anding De Leon was added to the Philly camp. This was to complete the teaching roster. Since then there have been several inquiries to teach at this event which had to be turned down. There is no room for other instructor and if there was you would not be considered without any of our members having seen you perform. If you would like to teach at an event I would suggest talking to Dr. Barber. He might be able to put you in the symposium. Looking forward to meeting you there.

Tim Hartman

E-mail 7

Lamont Wrote
Thanks for the reply. Why you are pushing this off to DocB is ridiculous. The problem is between you and I with regard to me existance as a seperate living person or a duplicate e-mail account. You have already talked with DocB about me in the past. I will be happy to "audition" for you and Rich Parsons at the Symposium and then go to your Michigan Camp to teach, or is that venue already filled as well? Are you running an Alliance or a closed shop? Is the organization open to new ideas and information? As I said before, most Modern Arnis people are not familiar with the largo mano style as Professor Presas did not often teach it. I asked him about it because of what I saw in his Modern Arnis book from the Philippines. He pulled me aside and taught me. Do you know the Modern Arnis largo mano style of striking and footwork? If I have read and understand your web site dedication correctly, you and your organization members should be interested in this information.

See you at the symposium - do I get the audition?

Lamont

E-mail 8

Hartman Wrote
See you at the Symposium.

Tim Hartman

E-mail 9

Lamont Wrote
OK! Now that we have that settled, are you going to answer my other questions? As the leader of the WMAA, I would like to have your response to my questions. Be straight forward, be honest.

Lamont

E-mail 10

Hartman Wrote
Like I said. I'll talk to you at the camp.

Tim Hartman

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

That being said, what’s the significance of this audition? I never asked for one or wanted to give one.

 

[jaybacca72]

as being an outsider looking in and reading i am truly digusted with this whole audition thing,i did think that my modern arnis peers were above these school yard actions but i guess i was mistaken. if you wanted to pick a fight with hartman then say so,this audition talk is bs and if i was there the following day i would taken hartmans place as well if i had known wether he wanted it or not. whoever norshadow is or was your actions have been in poor taste and iam ashamed to be associated with you by modern arnis name only.
much later
jay :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox:

 

[bloodwood]

DrB
My reputation is not on the line, but yours is.
So far all you've done is offer a bunch of long winded crap that diverts attention away from the fact that you and your students have some kind of ax to grind with Tim Hartman and his organization. Those emails from norshadow to Tim Hartman clearly show some intent to try and goat Tim Hartman or somebody from his organization into saying something he shouldn't that you could use against him and his people just as you staged this so called audition where all parties weren't aware of what was going on and what you REAL motives were. So if you want to go on the offensive, go right ahead. It won't work.

As for Paul stepping in for his instructor, I would buy the man a beer. Well done.

bloodwood

 

[Roland]

This sharing of accounts sounds a lot like what Doug was doing, eccept he was honest about what he did.
(and maybe a little less selective of who he allowed access to his account, but by too much by the sounds of it.)

This whole 'audition' thing sounds pretty funny, I think we should all just laugh it off.
I mean, who invites themselves to someone else's camp?
It would have been nice to see a real challenge though, that would have been cool.
Rules - First blood, or know out, or submission....?
How do you think we would have called it?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The comparison with Doug is valid. The difference IMHO is that he was upfront in it. His 'crime' was not thinking through the fallout of his actions. (Security and potential legal issues). His intent however was not malicious or for his own gain. Just fun.

In this case, it is multiple people posting under 1 psudeoname. The funny part is the posts where 'Norshadow' takes exception to others using a handle, yet is now revield to be a fraud. Many of those posts were 'bannerwaving' for Dr. Barbers event, so it could be suggested that they were for his own political or financial gain. It can also be thought that it was to further some political agenda.

This 'challenge' thing sounds like a poor mans rehash of the whole 'MoroMoro' crap, only worded a bit more politely.

Personally, in my opinion its this kind of gameplaying that gives the arts a bad name. Those involved in this duplicity should be ashamed of themselves for the insult they gave to the late GM's memory.

Now, someone will say "Bob, you don't know the full story" and they will be right. Y'all can hash out the personal, political and other BS. I'm focusing on the technical side of things. Trust me, thats even more interesting that the 'stick envy' I see going on here.

:soapbox:

 

[Emptyglass]

Rich:

While I appreciate your nice comments. Just to clarify my position here, I'm not denying or confirming anything nor have I. I just wasn't involved in the identity of Norshadow1. I didn't know where everyone had gone and came looking. I wasn't asked to leave and stayed to watch and was quite interested by what I saw and heard.

I'm just not sure why this is so important to some people. The admins handled the issue and now it is over. Big deal. I still agree with what I saw of Norshadow's posts and as far as Dr. Barber, Tim Kashino, Keith and the rest are concerned. I'm in their corner.

Thanks,

Richard Curren

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Jerome,

Hmmmm, I think there was a misunderstanding. I thought I said there might be an issue with the .mil IP's, was not sure. Later when Tim Kashino explained in person to me, that he could also not log in from the cyber cafe, outside the base. I then told him to contact myslef with the details of the errors or better yet one of the Admins.

I did not mean to cloud the issue.


Richard Curren,

I believe you were not involved, until the end. I respect your adamant denile in person and here. You are someone who wishes to contribute to the Martial Arts' and Martial Talk Communities'.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Emptyglass
This sort of thing happens all of the time on forums and in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with it.

It does indeed happen all the time on many fora. On this board it's disallowed. You're right that we're quite limited in our ability to prevent and detect it. But it is against our rules and we do something when we find out about it. This place is meant to be the opposite of rec.martial-arts.

You may think there's nothing wrong with it in general and in fact I'd agree with you--but do you not think that we have the right to forbid it even if it can be hard to enforce? (Remember, many times it is easy to catch if the person doesn't know about the fact that their IP address is logged and what that means.) We think we should be able to set our own rules for our own board.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[arnisador]

Someone claiming to be Lamont NorShadow, a presence on MartialTalk and the Eskrima Digest, e-mailed Tim Hartman witha very forward suggestion he be put on the instructor's list for a WMAA camp. This is poor etiquette; Lamont NorShadow then insisted on an audition. Mr. Hartman did not grant this request but merely said they could speak at the Symposium. Apparently at the Symposium he insisted on giving the audition (or perhaps Dr. Barber insisted for him--I was not there and am unsure). It seems that if he is to audtition for Mr. Hartman, Mr. Hartman should watch the audition--I would have expected Lamont NorShadow to bring a student to help him demonstrate. If indeed he attempted to insist that Mr. Hartman partner him then it would be more of his rude attempt to tell Mr. Hartman what to do (as per the e-mail cited above, where he wrote "Put DocB and myself on your WMAA Philadelphia Camp Roster in October. We would like to have a full hour for presentation, the same as your other instructors."). I doubt that it would look good if I went up to Datu Worden and insisted he partner me for an audition so I could be put on his Water and Steel Camp; it doesn't sound any better here.

What I am hearing does not reflect poorly on Mr. Hartman. As for the audition not going as Mr. Hartman might have liked, I don't get this--wasn't it only Lamont NorShadow who was auditioning? How can an audition reflect porrly on its audience?

Finally, I am unclear--is "Keith" Lamont NorShadow's actual first name or his surname?

 

[bloodwood]

I'm just not sure why this is so important to some people. The admins handled the issue and now it is over. Big deal. I still agree with what I saw of Norshadow's posts and as far as Dr. Barber, Tim Kashino, Keith and the rest are concerned. I'm in their corner.

OVER? it's just beginning. DrBarber's directing of this deal is disgusting. It is admirable that you are staying in his corner but remember that corner is on a sinking ship. When you act without honor you lose all credibility. I would find it hard to trust anything that DrB has to say from this point on.

bloodwood

 

[Cthulhu]

Personally, I will not show any support or interest for Barber or any of his future events. Those who perpetuated the lie are also suspect. This is my personal view and does not reflect the opinions of MartialTalk or its staff.

Regarding this 'audition', those who insisted on this 'audition' were extremely rude and out of line. It would be like a garage band showing up at a Metallica concert demanding to be heard so they could be placed on the bill. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Hartman had every right to tell these people to guzzle arsenic. They should consider themselves grateful that he gave them any time at all.

Cthulhu
getting more disillusioned with Modern Arnis because of crap like this. Thanks, Barber.

 

[Cruentus]

I just want to quickly address this:

Nice explaination, Paul, but I do not buy it for one reason, the matter was between Mr. Hartman and Norshadow (Keith) and no one else.

It really wasn't just between those two, though. This is why you should "buy it." As the host of the Michigan camp, I was let in on this conversation. Also, the hosts of the DE camp were he first "volunteered" were let in on it as well.

You see, people really thought this Norshadow guy wanted to get a teaching spot at a WMAA camp. This made it much more then a conversation between Tim and Kieth. This made it the business of all camp hosts, potential camp attendees, the WMAA board, as well as the entire WMAA.

Now Tim posted the entire conversation on this board, so people can see the exchenge. I guess it's everybodys business now.

So why would Tim go out on the floor if Keith was demonstrating so he could get a teaching spot? Wouldn't Tim want to see this demo from a 3rd person perspective so he can make his judgement? If anything, I would think that Kieth would have brought a training partner for the demonstration, or that he would have just used one of your other students. I know when Tim, or anyone, does a Demo, they usually use a familiar student to aid them. This only makes sense.

Unless of course your implying that this was supposed to be more then just a demo.

What I am trying to get to the bottom of here is how your trying to position this "audition." If this was supposed to be something more then just a Demo, then lets not speak in axioms, let's just spit it out.

I e-mailed you privately regarding the issue, and I'll patiently wait for an answer.

I hope we can get to the bottom of this, and clear up this issue in a friendly manner.

Respectfully,
Paul Janulis

 

[Dan Anderson]

Jerome and Tim,

I just got back from Buffalo after getting up (according to my left coast body time) at 2:00 AM to make a plane flight.

Guys, this is ridiculous. I don't care if the contimuing enmity goes on between you two until hell freezes over but this"Lamont Norshadow audition" and the degree of importance of "Lamont's secret identity" and it's alleged ramifications is kids on the playground bull$h!t!

This demeans all of us!

Sorry, gents. We should be above this. Both of you are my friends so I speak frankly. This kind of crap puts us in the muck and personally, Modern Arnis - everybody's Modern Arnis whether it's WMAA, WMAC, IMAF, MARPPIO, DAV, or any of the black sheep renegades - we don't need this. RP would've $h!t over this one.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
RP would've $h!t over this one.

Someone using a false name and identity so he could set up a demonstration of the "secret techniques" that the Professor taught only him, and insisting that a datu stand for some sort of unspecified challenge? Yes, seeing how the Professor treated [name omitted--"the Duck" if you were there (MSU 1987 or 1988)] in public for what I would consider lesser offenses, I wonder how he'd take it if he knew that the host of a Modern Arnis event had orchestrated such an affair. This deceit hardly seems in keeping with an event meant to be one that would bring people together in his memory after his passing.

I just can't see what Dr. Barber and "Keith" hoped to gain by using the Symposium to play a trick on one of the guest instructors, and by the pushy and rude behaviour of "Lamont NorShadow" in general. Bashing Mr. Hartman and/or PAUL after the fact for not following whatever secret rules were in effect isn't winning any points with me either.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Jerome and Tim,

Guys, this is ridiculous. I don't care if the contimuing enmity goes on between you two until hell freezes over but this"Lamont Norshadow audition" and the degree of importance of "Lamont's secret identity" and it's alleged ramifications is kids on the playground bull$h!t!

Dan-

Remember this is Camp Barber starting sh$t and wasting everyone's time! I was keeping to myself until THEY went out of their way to screw with me. I understand not wanting to take sides. If that is what you're going to do then stay out of the way.

Remember they are also messing with the WMAA. An org that you are a member of!

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Renegade
Dan-
I understand not wanting to take sides. If that is what you're going to do then stay out of the way.

Remember they are also messing with the WMAA. An org that you are a member of!

Tim,

Thus far I am seeing this as a Jerome/Tim thing. Clarify for me where it's directly an attack on WMAA.

Yours,
Dan

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Tim,

Thus far I am seeing this as a Jerome/Tim thing. Clarify for me where it's directly an attack on WMAA.

Yours,
Dan

Tim,

I talked to Dan briefly over the phone, and I clarified this a bit. I think that we are now all on the same page.

I am waiting for Dr. B's response to my p.m. so I can clarify things for myself before I post much more.

tick-tock-tick-tock...............(Jeprody theme song)

still waiting..........

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Renegade
Dan-

Remember this is Camp Barber starting sh$t and wasting everyone's time! I was keeping to myself until THEY went out of their way to screw with me. I understand not wanting to take sides. If that is what you're going to do then stay out of the way.

Remember they are also messing with the WMAA. An org that you are a member of!

Let me clarify. This is one episode stemming from a long history. I don't thnk this is an isolated anti-WMAA incident. This is more of a continuation of the Tim/Jerome thing I heard about when I got together with Tim over a year ago and from my understanding, it goes a ways back.

Yours,
Dan anderson

 

[Cruentus]

This may stem from a long history.....

but unfortunatily WMAA camp hosts, The Board, and WMAA members, AND Mr. Barbers students, AND Tom Bolden (to what level he was actually involved, I do not know) AND 2 unsuspecting Californians who had nothing to do with the "feud". all got dragged into it to a level.

The WMAA got dragged into it on a business level when this character was asking to teach at one of our events. All sorts of false implications were made in the P.M.'s (which Tim posted so we as evidence) that the "WMAA is a closed org.", and things of that sort. The WMAA might also being implimented on a technical level, as if to say that "we are not ready to 'handle' Largo Mano techniques"........as if WMAA interpretation of Modern Arnis is somehow incomplete.

So I agree with what your saying Dan, in that this stems from a long history. However, many people at this stage in the game got dragged into this feud, unfortunatily.

As you might already know, I have an easy solution as soon as I get my pm answered by Dr. B that will put all of this to rest.

:asian: