In the end, are we all not simply doing our own thing?

[TSDTexan]

While I am certain that I do not do exactly what I was taught to do, I strive *not* to change what I was taught. It is never my goal to introduce any changes into the instruction given to me.





That has not been the case for me. Instead, what has happened is that as I have matured in my understanding, I have 'discovered' things that are actually present and were there for me to see all the time, had I been able to absorb the teaching. So rather than 'changing' the system, I am learning more about the system through my introspection, training, self-testing, and so on. If I think I have found something 'new', I always find that is not the case at all, which is fine with me. It reinforces my core belief that the system I train in is a complete system, deep, and solid. There's no 'new' to be found in it that I have discovered thus far.



I can't speak for others, but I can say this for myself. First, I am not authorized, nor would I want to be, to introduce changes into what I've been taught. Isshinryu is not in need of improvement that I'm aware of, and especially not by me. Second, I sincerely doubt my own ability to understand what I am doing well enough to modify anything, even for my own use. As mentioned above, sometimes I stumble across something I find useful and interesting, and come to find that it was always in the system, waiting for me to do what I just did.



I have no doubt that there is a lot of utter crap out there, and sometimes it's a bit difficult for me to hold my tongue when I see it. That is my immature ego and pride speaking. I temper that with the understanding that not everyone trains for the same reasons. I hope that those who train in any system are getting something of value to themselves out of it and leave it at that. I don't need to be 'better than' anyone else, or anyone else's system. I am an inadequate martial artist and quite lacking in more than enough areas to be making judgments about others.



Amen.



Also true.



Yes. Unless you can train in Isshinryu. Then do that. It is the best, you know.



Well spoken, and thank you.

My bone with some Isshinryu dojo instruction... is a "new nihanchi dachi" that looks more like WC's goat clamping stance, then a horse stance. I.e. feet are overly turned in instead of parallel.

And nothing at all like Tatsuo Shimabuku's nihanchi dachi.

 

[hoshin1600]

What's a "Juggalo"? We had that term back east - but it can't be the same thing.

are you thinking of Gigolo?

i hear juggalo and i think of Donovan. Barabbjagal.

 

[Headhunter]

We all walk the same path for the same thing which is personal development, while we may all look for that in different ways e.g competition, work out, forms, fighting or self defence we all look for the same thing and all of us are of different abilities. The thing is everyone can do their own thing and as long as they get their satisfaction no one has the right to say they're wrong

 

[CB Jones]

What's a "Juggalo"? We had that term back east - but it can't be the same thing.

Juggalo (feminine Juggalette, or Juggala in Spanish speaking countries) is a name given to fans of the group Insane Clown Posse or any other Psychopathic Records hip hop group. Juggalos have developed their own idioms, slang and characteristics.

Search Youtube for What is a Juggalo -- for ICP's defintion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Some WC guys think that

- hook punch
- roundhouse kick

are not in their system.

Some do. And if they can point out where those things don't fit within the principles of their system, they are correct. However, if someone else can show an interpretation of the principles that those fit within, then it's another of those areas that's not black-and-white.

 

[Tez3]

I don't know if we have these juggalos in the UK we do have Morris Dancers though...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

My bone with some Isshinryu dojo instruction... is a "new nihanchi dachi" that looks more like WC's goat clamping stance, then a horse stance. I.e. feet are overly turned in instead of parallel.

And nothing at all like Tatsuo Shimabuku's nihanchi dachi.

When in doubt, we always look to the master's videos:

It's hard to see exactly how far his feet are turned in, but I agree it's not an extreme amount. There are other videos where his Naihanchi stance appears wider and even less turned in.

I have the good fortune to train under an instructor who was a direct student of both Masters Harrill and Mitchum. They had extensive training with Shimabuku Soke and I am content to train Naihanchi as I am told to do it. There are of course other lineages, but mine is UIKA and I have no complaints.

 

[TSDTexan]

When in doubt, we always look to the master's videos:

It's hard to see exactly how far his feet are turned in, but I agree it's not an extreme amount. There are other videos where his Naihanchi stance appears wider and even less turned in.

I have the good fortune to train under an instructor who was a direct student of both Masters Harrill and Mitchum. They had extensive training with Shimabuku Soke and I am content to train Naihanchi as I am told to do it. There are of course other lineages, but mine is UIKA and I have no complaints.

This is what I am talking about

As compared to

 

[Flying Crane]

Ah, are we talking about who is doing it wrong again?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is what I am talking about

Interesting. I've never turned my feet in that far.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Ah, are we talking about who is doing it wrong again?

For me, not wrong, just different.

 

[Flying Crane]

For me, not wrong, just different.

And that is a perfectly fair assessment. And debating the merits and drawbacks of the difference is also a fair discussion to have.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And that is a perfectly fair assessment. And debating the merits and drawbacks of the difference is also a fair discussion to have.

To be honest, I don't know enough about it to be able to intelligently debate the topic of the naihanchi dachi. I just keep practicing it the way I have been taught, and hopefully the curtain will be drawn back at some point.

 

[Flying Crane]

To be honest, I don't know enough about it to be able to intelligently debate the topic of the naihanchi dachi. I just keep practicing it the way I have been taught, and hopefully the curtain will be drawn back at some point.

Yeah, I think that is really what most of us are doing. I do not encourage people to make changes, as most by far lack the insight and depth of knowledge to do it intelligently. However, change does creep in, sometimes unwittingly, and that isn't always a bad thing. It could be your body finding its natural groove with the material and the principles, which might be a bit different from how your sensei taught you, or some such. It might simply result from getting creative with a drill or a theme, in which you discover something that is Very Useful.

Change for the sake of change, or change just to be deliberately different? No, that's not the idea. But change can occur, and it can be a good thing. But, like most things, it depends.

 

[drop bear]

are you thinking of Gigolo?

i hear juggalo and i think of Donovan. Barabbjagal.

For me it is insane clown posse.

 

[drop bear]

I agree but probably shouldn't start evolving until you fully understand the technique and why it is taught that way.

You should be Evolving the technique not Devolving it.

For example, Our Sensei has a degree in Kinesiology. His Sensei had a PH.D in Kinesiology. Through years and years of training along with their Kinesiology background they have tweeked techniques to evolve those techniques.

Too often students who don't fully understand the principle behind the technique tweek techniques to make it easier to perform and in essence creates a bad habit.

How are we definining evoled or devoled techniques? If I throw a goober punch that reliably knocks people out. It is not a goober punch.

Or is this some sort of asthetics debate?

 

[CB Jones]

How are we definining evoled or devoled techniques? If I throw a goober punch that reliably knocks people out. It is not a goober punch.

Or is this some sort of asthetics debate?

I would define evolving a technique is changing it to be more effective or efficient

Devolving would be making changes that make the technique less effective or efficient.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How are we definining evoled or devoled techniques? If I throw a goober punch that reliably knocks people out. It is not a goober punch.

Or is this some sort of asthetics debate?

If your goober punch is as effective as what was being taught, it is not devolution. If it is effective, but less so than what was taught, it's a devolution. Of course, then you'd have to figure out if it's a significant devolution. And we'd have to determine what we mean by "effective", since one punch may be faster, and the other more powerful, and a third harder to read.

 

[TSDTexan]

And that is a perfectly fair assessment. And debating the merits and drawbacks of the difference is also a fair discussion to have.

Well, the muscleoskeleton system does not traverse laterally very well at all when you pigeon-toe your feet.

Nihanchi being a form whose embusan is only movement is side to side... this the very essence of counterproductive effort.

If you (whomever pigeon-toes the nihanchi dachi) are deliberately stalling your movement there had better be a really good reason why.

Furthermore, goat clamping stance is a stance/structure for taking energy square to the center.

Nihanchi dachi ideally is supposed to be a horse stance, but more on the natural stance side than the deep horse stance, if you are on the Itosu-ha side. Or if your karate follows an older branch of Nifanchin... it would look like Motobu's Kiba-dach. In either case.. a horse stance takes energy laterally.

You can see it by trying to push some one over in a deep horse stance from the front, and from the side.

Or hold a big kicking pad to your side in Horse stance.. and white taking solid side kicks. Then hold the kick target on the center line while remaining in Horse stance while taking sidekicks.
Then as a third and final test. Hold the kicking pad to the side again, but do a pigeon-toe, while taking good side kicks.

The root is easy to move / dislocate up the middle, but sinks deep from the side In a normal horse stance... and that the pigeon-toed horse stance is structurally weaker.

The conclusion is that doing nihanchi dachi pigeon-toe means it's being done wrong.

 

[PhotonGuy]

we all train in our respective methods, and do it the best that we understand it, and I'll bet that means that eventually, we do it differently from our classmates and from our instructors. Some of us change the methodology a bit as we gain an understanding of the underlying principles and then come up with practices that reinforce those principles more effectively for us personally.

The method, the system, is a way to build skill. The method can be changed. Sometimes change is well informed, sometimes it is naive and foolish.

There is a lot of stuff out there that I would say is junk. Maybe I'm right about some of it, maybe I'm wrong about some of it.

Nobody has a monopoly on the "right" way to do things, and yet a lot of people have no idea of what they do not understand.

Spirited and rigorous debate is a good thing, but at the end of the day don't forget that what is posted here has no bearing on what happens in the world out there.

But in the end, we are all doing our own thing, to the best of our understanding. We are responsible for our own training. Take ownership of what you know. Do it the best that you can. If you find out how to do it better, then do that.

I dunno, just felt like it needed to be said.

Well you're right. The move The Karate Kid III, although just a movie, spells it out really well. Your Karate, or whatever art(s) you train in comes from inside you. The roots come from your instructor but eventually you will do it your own way. Especially at the really high levels you find stuff that works best for you which might not necessarily work best for somebody else. So you will no doubt be doing your art differently than your instructor who does it differently than his instructor who does it differently than his instructor and so forth. An instructor can only teach you the roots. Further development comes from yourself. Likewise if you ever teach you will only be teaching your student the roots and further development will come from themselves. Everybody develops their own style and their own methods. You could say there is one martial art for every martial artist.