improper touching in the Dojo

[Michael Billings]

You have mentioned "your instructor" on several occasions. Is it his school, or is this a lower ranking Black or Brown Belt teaching classes? If it is not the school owner, you probably need to talk to he or she about the situation, and "your instructor's response." If it is the owner ... then I am sorry.

You may want to point out to him the repetitive nature of the "offense" and potential liability issues of allowing one of his/her students to gratuitously grope or hit you where he is.

I am with the rest in that this needs to be resolved, and it is up to the school owner to do it.

-MB:asian:

 

[MountainSage]

Rachel.
Have you discussed this problem with other males in the class? I know that if one of the ladies in my class came to me with this problem, I would, at her request, have a serious talk with the offending person. Politely at first, then in the corner with my size 13 foot in his chest if that didn't work. I believe the responsibility is the instructors, yet the other males in the class have a duty to hold the line on what is socially acceptable. I guess I'm old fashion, Chivalry is not dead.


Mountain Sage

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by MountainSage
Rachel.
Have you discussed this problem with other males in the class? I know that if one of the ladies in my class came to me with this problem, I would, at her request, have a serious talk with the offending person. Politely at first, then in the corner with my size 13 foot in his chest if that didn't work. I believe the responsibility is the instructors, yet the other males in the class have a duty to hold the line on what is socially acceptable. I guess I'm old fashion, Chivalry is not dead.


Mountain Sage

Go boyeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by MountainSage
my size 13 foot
Mountain Sage

OMG!

 

[Richard S.]

Originally posted by MountainSage
Rachel.
Have you discussed this problem with other males in the class? I know that if one of the ladies in my class came to me with this problem, I would, at her request, have a serious talk with the offending person. Politely at first, then in the corner with my size 13 foot in his chest if that didn't work. I believe the responsibility is the instructors, yet the other males in the class have a duty to hold the line on what is socially acceptable. I guess I'm old fashion, Chivalry is not dead.


Mountain Sage

here here! well spoken sir!.....

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by MountainSage
Rachel.
Chivalry is not dead.
Mountain Sage

Dittos from the left coast! If you don't fire up the twins (see smilie below), there are others who will. This might be Y2K but chivalry is not dead!

Yours,
Dan Anderson
:btg:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Um...hate to sound excessively contrarian, but I don't agree that, "the other males in the class," should get into it. And I don't think chivalry's going to help, since the flip side of chivalry is exactly the problem you're dealing with. Otherwise, I'd recommend what's been recommended by others.

Or, you could introduce him to the posts on this thread...attached to a nine-pound weight...

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Rachel:

You are in a very difficult situation. I think that you must confront the problem directly. You need to talk to this guy and tell him you think he is out of line. He may be hitting on you. He may be unaware that he is touching you inappropriatly and may be doing it unintentionally (unlikely). He may just be a jerk. You won't know until you talk to him about it. If he turns out to be a jerk, then you have to talk to the school owner about it and see what happens. I hope that it all works out for the best for you.

On a side note...Our owner couldn't make it in one day and he had a student signed up for an introductory lesson. She walked in and came to the front desk at her appointed time. Since the owner was out and I was available, I taught the lesson. We always teach lone kimono on the first lesson. This woman was convinced that this was not a real self-defense technique and that I was only doing this to get my hand(s) on her breasts! Fortunately, she signed up anyway. We got married 8 years later.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Um...hate to sound excessively contrarian, but I don't agree that, "the other males in the class," should get into it. And I don't think chivalry's going to help, since the flip side of chivalry is exactly the problem you're dealing with. Otherwise, I'd recommend what's been recommended by others.

Or, you could introduce him to the posts on this thread...attached to a nine-pound weight...

I agree with Robert-

I dont think that its any body elses business at the school. Why bring others into your personal problems. The only ones involved should be the 2 students and the Inst. If the Inst. doesnt seem to care or wont help you, then the best thing to do is leave the school.

Mike

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
On a side note...Our owner couldn't make it in one day and he had a student signed up for an introductory lesson. She walked in and came to the front desk at her appointed time. Since the owner was out and I was available, I taught the lesson. We always teach lone kimono on the first lesson. This woman was convinced that this was not a real self-defense technique and that I was only doing this to get my hand(s) on her breasts! Fortunately, she signed up anyway. We got married 8 years later.

That is a funny story with a happy ending!

 

[kenpo2dabone]

I hope this will help. When I was a yellow my instructor was a female and she was teaching me Opening Cowel (two hand chokehold from behind pushing you forward). Well it is sort of a blind technique where you rotate with a left outward block and a right punch to the soloplexis or floating rib. Well, I missed the soloplexis and floating rib, guess what I hit... I was actually the one who was embarassed even though she never made mention of it except for telling me the punch goes to the soloplexis. To this day I never miss the actual target on that technique. Even though she never made mention of it, it is engrained in my head. The point is, he is probably aware of what he is doing and he obviously doesn't think anything of it. I would not neccessarily retaliate by hitting him when you could embarras him which would be much more devastaing I think. Next time he does it since your instructor won't handle it quietly, simply say outloud "quite hitting me in the_____(insert favorite term) the punch goes to the face" or the soloplexis or wherever he should be punching. My guess is that he will be somewhat mortified and will more than likely stop. Not to mention get your instructors attention to the problem which he will have to deal with since it is out in the open. If this primarily happens in sparring then you might be dealing with a different matter as accidents do seem to happen in sparring since it is not a controled environment. It could very well be that he simply does not want to hit to hit you in the face so he is punching a little lower. In which case maybe give him the benefit if the doubt and talk to him one on one about it first and then you can use the mortification tactic. By the way your instructor is copping out by not handling it for you.

Sincerely,
Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

 

[Disco]

Rachel, the Instructor has to, repeat, has to correct the problem. Tell him one more time and if there's no response, he's a jerk and your in the wrong school. Leave post haste cause more than likely, other things will probably start to reveal themselve.

 

[arnisador]

I think you should say something to the person. I hold out some small hope that your instructor is hoping that making you do it will help teach you assertiveness and that he'll step in if it fails. (If he's copping out, that's a sad state and I think you should consider walking.) You need do no more than say to the person, after it happens, "Please don't hit me there." If he plays stupid, gives a wise-*** answer, tells you he's helping your training since it could happen in the street, or just keeps doing it, then refuse to work with him. Simply bow out. It's always your right. I've done it within the past year with someone who was too wild and not playing according to the class instructor's instructions. Bow out, say "Thank you," and stand to the side if you can't find another partner. Don't be drawn into an argument.

If you feel your skill level is equal to making the point with groin shots, fine. I've handled people who weren't playing by the rules like that before--they hit too hard for the exercise, I ask them to stop, then if it keeps up I make my point in a way that I think they'll understand. But there's no need for this.

The issue can be difficult. I'm known in knife sparring for liking to stab to the chest. With women I often hesitate to do so, taking out not only a large target area but also one of my favorite target areas. I ask myself, am I hampering their training by failing to attack an area that may be attacked in a real altercation? Renegade tells me to treat them like anyone else. Since the chest is a favorite free-sparring target of mine, I could well come off as a jerk myself! We also have, like most arts, locks that involve bracing the hand/arm against the chest. One technique in particular (our old-style #2 disarm) required placing the other person's hand right in the center of the chest. I had to teach this to a very well-endowed woman at a camp once and felt very awkward, as the basic technique amounted to telling her to place my hand between her breasts and hold it there tightly. While I wanted to teach the technique correctly, it was awkward for me.

I also agree that some accidental and some incidental contact will occur and that that can't be avoided. We are talking about contact sports. It sounds like this fact isn't an issue for you; I know some women prefer to train at all-female schools because of this.

Fundamently, though, I believe that if you think this guy is being a jerk then you're probably right, and you should trust your instincts. Dirtballs like this get away with this sort of frottage because they can make you think it's just a string of coincidences, that it's all in your head. Whether he's 14 and you can have some sympathy for his raging hormones or he's over 18 and clearly just being an ***hole, say something firm and unambiguous to him. If it keeps up, tell the instructor and bow out of working with the student whenever you end up paired with him. If your instructor won't let you bow out, that in itself is a danger sign in my book. If he lets you bow out--as he should--but hassles you about and/or doesn't address the issue with the offending student...you may have a difficult decision to make. One word of advice: This will not be the last problem you'll have there, if so. It's always hard in the martial arts to stop and change styles as you feel you're throwing away time you've invested, but you could be throwing good time after bad. You could take the benefits of the training elsewhere. In my experience relatively few martial artists got their black belt in the first art they try.

 

[Jay Bell]

Great post, arnisador

 

[rachel]

I can't believe all the responses to this thread. I really appreciate all your suggestions. I don't want to ever intentionally hurt a person.I will just tell this person to watch where they put their hands. If it keeps up, I'll have to take drastic action. My friend said she will yell out loud"stop touching my breasts!" We usually don't end up working with this man but when we do he always hits in the same spot. Maybe my teacher does want me to be more aggressive and that's why he wants me to handle it. I talked to him today about wanting to go harder in private lessons and in class if my partner does just because I tend to be meek. Maybe it's a female thing. But I definetly need to be more aggressive. He was very accommodating in my private lesson today. Thanks again.

 

[tkdcanada]

Maybe the guy is so busy concentrating on NOT hitting them that he does it every time (or often enough). You know how when you concentrate so hard on something, the opposite will happen. Although it seems unlikely, it may very well be the case and overreacting to it will only cause everyone a lot of embarrassment and bad feelings. I think openness is always the best thing. Why not come off assertive but light? Jokingly say something like, "Okay, you get two chances. You get me there twice and I get a free one on you." You've brought the situation and how you feel about it to his attention but you've done it in a way that would alleviate any embarrassment if indeed it is innocent. Then, if it does happen twice, then follow through - he was warned so he'll be expecting it, so he'll be a lot less likely to let it happen again. Just a thought.

 

[Mithios]

It is your instructor that should do the talking to this guy !!!! If he wont then he has a problem himself !!

 

[theletch1]

At the very least I would think a general comment like "Fellas, watch your targets when training with the ladies..." while in the lineup before or at the end of class would be in line. No one gets singled out (right then) and that could be a very clear pre-emptive action against future "accidents". If it continued after that then a private discussion in the instructors office would be in line.

 

[twinkletoes]

To state the obvious, this is NOT COOL.

I agree that there are a couple of problems here:

#1 The guy hitting your chest. A number of the existing suggestions are great. The one I like best is directly addressing it with him and asking him to direct his punches elsewhere. If you don't get any cooperation, don't train with him. There is no need to encourage him.

I'm also not against the idea of having another guy tell him. We have some senior students at my school who are very good at pulling other students aside and "giving them a heads up." While as the instructor, I tend to handle things personally, I know that often other male students, especially advanced ones, are glad to help out their classmates.

If he hears it from them, and then you address it directly, he will know that he really needs to take heed.

#2 The instructor. This could be a bigger problem. If he doesn't have your back, you may not be training at the right place. His job is not strictly to disseminate information. His role is to have the final word on any and all things that happen in his school. The school is an environment that he creates and maintains, and he bears full responsiblity for it.

If he's just encouraging you to be assertive, that's one thing. If he's dodging the topic because it's awkward, or because he doesn't see anything wrong with it, then he is the biggest culprit. That's a major problem.

Handle the student first. That's the short-term problem. After something happens, whether it is effective or not, it's a good time to check in with your instructor. Tell him what went down. Get his feedback. If it was a success and he's proud, then good. Maybe he's OK after all. If he is indifferent, or if you were unsuccessful and he's still unwilling to help, it's time to make it plain that he isn't keeping up his end. And if you don't get a response from him, it's time to go shopping for a new school.

As an aside, I have 2 BJJ programs I oversee. In one, it is mostly guys. In the other, it is mostly gals. In the first, I occasionally teach 2 versions of a technique (at the same time), if one of them is a little "gender-awkward." For example, one night I had only myself, a 16-year old girl, and a 40-year old guy. Now, the two of them are friends, and there's no weirdness between them, but one of the moves we worked involved kneeling over your pinned partner and squeezing their head between the knees. Needless to say, some modifications were offered for times when you didn't want to go that way.

The job of any instructor is to keep his students safe at all times when in his classes. This is not just from physical harm.

~TT

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
An occational shot, yeah, suck it up. A constant thing? Thats different.

5. When doing techniques that aim for his groin, 'accidentally' connect. Hey...it happens in the street right?

I like this approach to the problem the best, you know an eye for an eye kind of response... :btg:

But seriously, as has been reiterated plenty of times already, an occassional shot to a gal's chest does happen (even at that point if I were the girl I'd bring it to the guy's attention). Anyway, if this guy's doing it habitually then yeah it's a problem that needs to be dealt with ASAP.

1. Woman informally talks to the perv, I mean perp and tells him to control his shots.
2. If it continues, woman brings it to the Master Instructor's attention.

Bottom line is that if Rachel brought this issue to the attention of the Master Instructor/owner of the dojo and not to one of his jr. assistants, then IMHO it is the MI's responsibility to correct the problem so it stops ASAP. If the MI refuses to deal with the issue then he's wimping out.

Irrespective of how good the MI, his instruction or dojo are, if Rachel or any women continue to be subjected to those inappropriate touches and it's not corrected by the MI, then they should find a new school. I know I wouldn't want my wife or daughter subjected to that type of treatment. Just my long winded 2 cents.