Improbability of the "Refinement" Theory

[Juany118]

I

I'll just touch on one example, because the reply to each would be the same. You referred to music. Any good musician will tell you that every musician plays a bit differently, even when they are emulating someone. There's always a significant difference unless they replicate the exact playing for an exact piece of music, and then it gets very close...but never exactly the same. In fact, the same musician won't play it exactly the same twice. Surely you're not going to argue that any instructor teaches every single possible sequence of events to near-exact precision. To do so for only a few score variations of responses would require every waking moment of a lifetime.

None of your responses even come close to explaining how both motor movements AND strategy AND theory can be replicated without error. That's not how the human mind works. If you really need me to, I'll be happy to go pull a couple of juried journal articles that make it clear. It's boring reading, but I'll be happy to pass it along if you actually don't believe it exists.

Let's not even talk about "error". Martial Arts must flow from you naturally, if they don't then you will not react fast enough to be an effective fighter. There is a guy in my class who is 6'3 and over 300 lbs., some middle age fat but most of it is muscle from lugging cases of whatever to fill the vending machines that is his business. His WC isn't mine. He has the size where opening like a charging rhino is an option. I am 5'10 and bounce between 165 and 170 odd lbs. When we spar I have to use my speed and constantly zone to a flank. As long as I can keep him having to change his facing I can usually prevent him from pulling the rhino. IF I tried to fight him the way he fights I would be done, if he tried to fight like I do he would not be utilizing his size. We study under the same Sifu but when we fight his WC is not my WC. There is no Universal strategy and the above is only one of a many factors that will inform your strategy at any given time.

 

[guy b]

Now that's rich!

Feel free to ask any question you like if you ever decide you would like to learn something

I have been making sense to everyone other than you and LFJ

It isn't a popularity contest

you have very little evidence for your theory other than "because I said so" and "you have to spend years studying WSLT to understand."

It is up to you if you wish to gather the evidence you need. Since listening isn't something you like to do, I suggest you book a flight to Germany and find out if you are really interested, otherwise don't worry so much about it.

nd you never even attempted to explain what is so revolutionary about it that WSL could not have arrived at it himself from "standard" Wing Chun other then your vague comment about chaos and order. That isn't much of an explanation. So you cannot in honesty say that your theory is more probable than ours in any kind of convincing fashion.

Many attemps have been made. Usually they result in you getting angry.

 

[Juany118]

Strategy is automatic in VT, it comes out via the physical training. It isn't something that needs to be pondered or consciously thought about. The only people approaching VT in this kind of "if this, then this" manner are those who never learned correctly and who are filling the gaps.

There is no such thing. There are so many factors that go into a fight a universal strategy beyond "hit the other guy and put him down" is impossible. First, in terms of teaching strategy the mindset and, in the case of Martial Arts, physical attributes of the practitioner will be vital. A strategy for a 6'3" person weighing 250 lbs will be different than 5'5" and 120 and if you try to enforce a universal strategy then you end up compromising the benefits of certain physical attributes. Mind set is also very important, for this I will use Military History. Omar Bradley was methodical to the point of being overly cautious. Thus he often missed tactical and strategic opportunities. Contrast this with Patton whose watch words were "audacity, audacity, always audacity." They were both educated at the same institution, to the same standards but they could not be more different.

Then you step beyond the individual. What is your environment? Is there a size/strength difference between you and your opponent? You can have a shared philosophy behind a Martial Art but a universal strategy is quite simply impossible.

 

[KPM]

It is up to you if you wish to gather the evidence you need. Since listening isn't something you like to do, I suggest you book a flight to Germany and find out if you are really interested, otherwise don't worry so much about it.

----Given that you guys don't think all the time that DP spent with WSL was enough to learn the system, how on earth do you think anyone would be able to with a single trip to visit PB in Germany??!!!




Feel free to ask any question you like if you ever decide you would like to learn something. Many attemps have been made. Usually they result in you getting angry

----Oh, I haven't been angry, and you haven't made "many attempts" to actually explain things as you claim. You drop a tidbit here and there, but it is usually lost in the noise of a much bigger thread and discussion. So I will suggest one more time.....how about you and LFJ start a thread with a technical discussion about the differences you see between WSLVT and all the other lineages of Ip Man you have experienced, and point out exactly why these differences are something that WSL could not possibly have arrived at based on his own talent and experience. And I promise to read closely, and participate/contribute as much as I can in an unbiased and reasonable way. Is it a deal?

 

[KPM]

There are so many factors that go into a fight a universal strategy beyond "hit the other guy and put him down" is impossible. .

If all you are worried about is facing an unarmed opponent in a streetfight, this isn't necessarily true. I'm thinking of western boxing. A good boxer can handle himself pretty well in a streetfight with just punching. And this seems to be the strategy of WSLVT.....it is optimized to for facing an unarmed opponent in a streetfight. Maybe this hearkens back to the rooftop "Bei Mo" days in HK. Nothing wrong with that. But regardless of Guy's protests to the contrary, this is a rather narrow and specialized approach.

Now....factor in facing an armed attacker (which maybe happens more often in the US than in the UK?) or being "blind-sided" in a dark alley before you can "face off" with the attacker and bring your punching skills to bear, and there might be a problem. But Guy has BJJ to "fill that gap" in his WSLVT.

 

[Transk53]

If all you are worried about is facing an unarmed opponent in a streetfight, this isn't necessarily true. I'm thinking of western boxing. A good boxer can handle himself pretty well in a streetfight with just punching. And this seems to be the strategy of WSLVT.....it is optimized to for facing an unarmed opponent in a streetfight. Maybe this hearkens back to the rooftop "Bei Mo" days in HK. Nothing wrong with that. But regardless of Guy's protests to the contrary, this is a rather narrow and specialized approach.

Now....factor in facing an armed attacker (which maybe happens more often in the US than in the UK?) or being "blind-sided" in a dark alley before you can "face off" with the attacker and bring your punching skills to bear, and there might be a problem. But Guy has BJJ to "fill that gap" in his WSLVT.

Used to a less of a problem a few years ago, but while most knife crime is still little anonymous to the British public, I.E. knife crime just doesn't connect, or maybe that just me. Still, though more and more carry these days, not to mention the more insidious stuff like credit card blades. So yeah, there is big gap between us nations, but on some level not that much. Just my take on that, I'm sure Tez could a more informative version on that.

 

[Juany118]

If all you are worried about is facing an unarmed opponent in a streetfight, this isn't necessarily true. I'm thinking of western boxing. A good boxer can handle himself pretty well in a streetfight with just punching. And this seems to be the strategy of WSLVT.....it is optimized to for facing an unarmed opponent in a streetfight. Maybe this hearkens back to the rooftop "Bei Mo" days in HK. Nothing wrong with that. But regardless of Guy's protests to the contrary, this is a rather narrow and specialized approach.

Now....factor in facing an armed attacker (which maybe happens more often in the US than in the UK?) or being "blind-sided" in a dark alley before you can "face off" with the attacker and bring your punching skills to bear, and there might be a problem. But Guy has BJJ to "fill that gap" in his WSLVT.

When I speak of strategy I am going deeper than just punching though. If a 150 lbs dude is fighting a 300 lbs dude he doesn't want to go in like a "swarmer" who is often willing to take hits to deliver hits. Instead he is going to want to dance, try to hit fast and move so the big guy cant nail him with a "good night Irene."

 

[Juany118]

Used to a less of a problem a few years ago, but while most knife crime is still little anonymous to the British public, I.E. knife crime just doesn't connect, or maybe that just me. Still, though more and more carry these days, not to mention the more insidious stuff like credit card blades. So yeah, there is big gap between us nations, but on some level not that much. Just my take on that, I'm sure Tez could a more informative version on that.

What I just found interesting was when I typed "knife crime in..." into Google it auto filled "...the UK." I found this article that references the Guardian quite a bit. https://www.google.com/amp/townhall...n2026497?amp=true?client=ms-android-sprint-us

 

[Juany118]

Feel free to ask any question you like if you ever decide you would like to learn something



It isn't a popularity contest



It is up to you if you wish to gather the evidence you need. Since listening isn't something you like to do, I suggest you book a flight to Germany and find out if you are really interested, otherwise don't worry so much about it.

Many attemps have been made. Usually they result in you getting angry.

People are listening. The problem is you use vague generalized terms such as "strategy" without defining what the strategy is in any detail and then when asked for clarification or something is said that contradicts your position you either engage in circular logic or simply get condescending.

 

[Juany118]

To address the original premise. Humans are flawed creatures, thus anything we create will be flawed. Flaws by definition, regardless of how small they may be, create the possibility for refinement.

Now sometimes an attempt to refine something does indeed break it. Think of the gem cutter who misses the mark while trying to add facets to a diamond and ruins the stone. Sometimes the refinement can go far enough that what you have is technically something you could consider a different animal, think Jiu-Jitsu to Judo.

These dynamics however do not mean that refinement isn't possible and arguably a vital part of the human condition.

 

[Juany118]

Hmmm found an interesting quote that I completely agree with that kinda makes the point about how you will use a different specific strategy in every fight...

"When fighting, your opponent will be free to move how he likes, he will not think as you do. Hence your movements will be determined by his actions. If your intentions are to hit your opponent above all else, then you may over commit yourself or allow your opponent to attack you easily. It is far better to allow your opponent to guide you during the fight, to show you how to hit him.”

Who said this... Wong Shun Leung.

So essentially the strategy is "let the circumstances of the fight dictate your strategy."

 

[Vajramusti]

Hmmm found an interesting quote that I completely agree with that kinda makes the point about how you will use a different specific strategy in every fight...

"When fighting, your opponent will be free to move how he likes, he will not think as you do. Hence your movements will be determined by his actions. If your intentions are to hit your opponent above all else, then you may over commit yourself or allow your opponent to attack you easily. It is far better to allow your opponent to guide you during the fight, to show you how to hit him.”

Who said this... Wong Shun Leung.

So essentially the strategy is "let the circumstances of the fight dictate your strategy."

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Strategy and tactics are not exactly the came thing........

 

[Juany118]

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Strategy and tactics are not exactly the came thing........

Oh I understand that sir I have worn green or blue since 1991 so knowing the difference is job requirement. I am simply using the context Guy appears to use, but it is hard to tell since he has been characteristicly vague.

@Vajramusti Late edit (had an emergency call sorry for the incomplete thought)... I am basically using the context of his answers. When I or others have talked tactics he has said that WSLVT has its own strategy that is superior. So it appears he sees strategy and tactical execution as synonymous, vs strategy simply the overall plan of the art.

If I have misinterpreted his meaning, he could clear it up quote easily by explaining what he sees as WSLVT's strategy, and how it applies to tactical considerations.

 

[geezer]

People are listening....

Not anymore. Not, me anyway. Frankly I've had enough. I'm far more interested in talking with people that are interested in an exchange of ideas. If I were looking for someone with all the answers, I could have stayed with my old organization, I guess.

...Anyone for a new thread?

 

[Juany118]

Not anymore. Not, me anyway. Frankly I've had enough. I'm far more interested in talking with people that are interested in an exchange of ideas. If I were looking for someone with all the answers, I could have stayed with my old organization, I guess.

...Anyone for a new thread?

Actually that is a good idea this thread gave me an idea for a new one. I will be posting it on the Self Defense forum under the title "tactical considerations in self defense" if you are interested. Just got home though so first take off the monkey suit, second pour scotch, third start typing lol.

 

[drop bear]

If all you are worried about is facing an unarmed opponent in a streetfight, this isn't necessarily true. I'm thinking of western boxing. A good boxer can handle himself pretty well in a streetfight with just punching. And this seems to be the strategy of WSLVT.....it is optimized to for facing an unarmed opponent in a streetfight. Maybe this hearkens back to the rooftop "Bei Mo" days in HK. Nothing wrong with that. But regardless of Guy's protests to the contrary, this is a rather narrow and specialized approach.

Now....factor in facing an armed attacker (which maybe happens more often in the US than in the UK?) or being "blind-sided" in a dark alley before you can "face off" with the attacker and bring your punching skills to bear, and there might be a problem. But Guy has BJJ to "fill that gap" in his WSLVT.

Hitting an attacker is also a lot quicker than people expect. You get that hit in you gain a lot of initiative. Weapon or not.

Good training and tactics can counter this of course. And there are some elements like the ability to eat return shots. Which is why other tactics also exist.

For me I think there are safer approaches to street fighting. Like good striking moving backwards.

 

[LFJ]

Hmmm found an interesting quote that I completely agree with that kinda makes the point about how you will use a different specific strategy in every fight...

"When fighting, your opponent will be free to move how he likes, he will not think as you do. Hence your movements will be determined by his actions. If your intentions are to hit your opponent above all else, then you may over commit yourself or allow your opponent to attack you easily. It is far better to allow your opponent to guide you during the fight, to show you how to hit him.”

Who said this... Wong Shun Leung.

So essentially the strategy is "let the circumstances of the fight dictate your strategy."

You have this a bit confused, if I may say so...

That is the VT strategy, to allow the opponent to show you how to hit them. It doesn't change. That quote came directly from YM.

What is dictated by the opponent is not our own strategy, but the specific tactics we use in response to the rapid changes during the fight.

If you allow the opponent to dictate your strategy, you become their puppet. The VT approach is to impose our strategy onto the opponent, closing options and forcing them into errors that show us how to hit them.

A relevant quote from PB recently; "So I have to go into his future, destroy it... and come back."

 

[guy b]

The problem is you use vague generalized terms such as "strategy" without defining what the strategy is in any detail

I don't think that "strategy" is a vague generalised term. The strategy of WSL VT has also been discussed in detail over several threads and someone like KPM has read all about the strategic approach of WSL VT. Strangely though it doesn't appear to make a lot of difference in these never ending arguments.

 

[guy b]

Not anymore. Not, me anyway. Frankly I've had enough. I'm far more interested in talking with people that are interested in an exchange of ideas

How about you stop cropping up on threads regarding WSL VT and making disapproving comments then? You sound a bit like Joy at this point.

 

[KPM]

I don't think that "strategy" is a vague generalised term. The strategy of WSL VT has also been discussed in detail over several threads and someone like KPM has read all about the strategic approach of WSL VT. Strangely though it doesn't appear to make a lot of difference in these never ending arguments.

No, I appreciate the directness of the strategy of WSLVT. You just haven't yet convinced me that this is something that WSL himself couldn't have possibly arrived at based upon his own talent and experience. Why are you avoiding starting an actual technical thread about the differences between WSLVT and all other versions of VT you have seen and explain why you think WSL could not be the source for many of these differences?