If you had to break down Hapkido

[milewski]

1. Break the joint
2. Dislocate the joint
3. Pressure point
4. Vital strike

That would be 4 results from many techniques

 

[zDom]

Well, now you are making an analogy to language, which gets further afield.

Irrespective, I do believe there is some value to the topic, although perhaps not as narrowly defined as the original poster. I believe you can categorize Hapkido into general principles, which are embodied in certain hallmark techniques. I remember asking Dr. He Young Kimm (who was a member of your Hapkido branch for a while) why he chose to create Hanmudo, and one of the things he said was that he disliked the fact that Hapkido had basically the same technique for different grabs.

I don't know about four techniques, but I did name two that I feel are reflective of Hapkido, the spin hook kick, and the knife hand strike.

How is it further afield? I think it is a VERY apt analogy.

English has, what, couple hundred thousand words. How those words are combined into language depends on country, region within that country, education level, subculture, context, situation — etc., etc., etc.

Hapkido is very much the same. There are thousands of techniques, depending on how you count, and all sorts of small variations on many of those.

And you want someone to DEFINE hapkido by FOUR "hallmark" techniques. Nice.

I think it is an reasonable request at oversimplification and I think anyone who DOES give an answer is really just providing their favorite four techniques that they think of as being hapkido.

Break the joint? What exactly are you breaking? Dislocation is, of course, a possibility but you are either breaking the bones involved at either side of a joint or damaging connective tissues or both.

Pressure point? Sure, we know about them in MSK Hapkido — but we don't rely on them in such a way as to consider them one of the Four Hallmarks of Hapkido. Mechanical manipulation of the opponent's body parts is MUCH more reliable and important.

Vital strike? How is this specific to hapkido? Don't all martial arts target vital areas assuming the situation calls for it?

Spin hook kick? I would venture to guess there are some hapkido curriculums where this is rarely practiced — maybe some in which it isn't even included as I'm pretty sure that particular kick was added in by Kim Mu-hyun and Ji Han Jae and was not included in the kicking brought back by Choi Yong-Sul.

Knife hand strike? Almost as universal as the reverse punch.



Four specific techniques?

I have no idea what those might be. I have a toolbox. Show me a job, and I'll see what four tools I happen to reach for.

 

[puunui]

English has, what, couple hundred thousand words. How those words are combined into language depends on country, region within that country, education level, subculture, context, situation — etc., etc., etc.

Ok, if you want to go with the english language analogy, I would say that instead of words, we have 26 letters which are the building blocks of the language, which in turn creates the words. So, I don't know about 4 letters, but instead would go with the 26 standard ones.

Hapkido is very much the same. There are thousands of techniques, depending on how you count, and all sorts of small variations on many of those.

We always hear about that, that Hapkido has thousands of techniques. I have even seen some very specific numbers, like 3754 or whatever, no doubt based on the Daito Ryu count of 2700 something. But how true is that? Count the techniques in your own Moo Sul Kwan curriculum. Do you approach those kinds of numbers? I asked Dr. He Young Kimm why he chose to leave the Moo Sul Kwan and he said that it didn't have enough techniques for him and that they did the same technique over and over for different grabs. I don't think he would be saying that if there were, as you say, "thousands of techniques, depending on how you count, and all sorts of small variations on many of those".

And you want someone to DEFINE hapkido by FOUR "hallmark" techniques. Nice.

I do think that there are certain techniques, which get used over and over, which does define Hapkido, much like letters in the english alphabet. If the number "FOUR" is what is holding you back, then forget that and concentrate instead on the techniques that define Hapkido.

I think it is an reasonable request at oversimplification and I think anyone who DOES give an answer is really just providing their favorite four techniques that they think of as being hapkido.

Maybe.

The next comments that you make was in response to someone's else's post.

Break the joint? What exactly are you breaking? Dislocation is, of course, a possibility but you are either breaking the bones involved at either side of a joint or damaging connective tissues or both.

Does the Moo Sul Kwan advocate the breaking of joints?

Pressure point? Sure, we know about them in MSK Hapkido — but we don't rely on them in such a way as to consider them one of the Four Hallmarks of Hapkido. Mechanical manipulation of the opponent's body parts is MUCH more reliable and important.

Vital strike? How is this specific to hapkido? Don't all martial arts target vital areas assuming the situation calls for it?

I would put "pressure point" and "vital strike" together. I do think that it is important to know what the target is, no matter what technique or application you are performing.

Spin hook kick? I would venture to guess there are some hapkido curriculums where this is rarely practiced — maybe some in which it isn't even included as I'm pretty sure that particular kick was added in by Kim Mu-hyun and Ji Han Jae and was not included in the kicking brought back by Choi Yong-Sul.

I would say that if there was no spin hook kick in the curriculum, then it isn't really Hapkido and that it should be called something else, whether it is Yusool, Yukwonsool, Yawara, etc, the names that GM Choi used. By the way, which kicks did GM CHOI Yong Sul bring back?

Knife hand strike? Almost as universal as the reverse punch.

But Hapkido does apply it differently. Roundhouse kick for example.

Four specific techniques? I have no idea what those might be. I have a toolbox. Show me a job, and I'll see what four tools I happen to reach for.

ok. One example that you mentioned in another thread was that if someone were rushing you straight on, you would throw a front kick as a possible response. Is that from your Hapkido toolbox? If so, which part of the foot do you use when throwing the Hapkido front kick? I ask because my Hapkido teachers (including but not limited to GM JI Han Jae) never taught the front kick with the ball of the foot.

 

[zDom]

Ok, if you want to go with the english language analogy, I would say that instead of words, we have 26 letters which are the building blocks of the language, which in turn creates the words. So, I don't know about 4 letters, but instead would go with the 26 standard ones.

Hmmm. With some thought I might be able to answer this question if you gave me 30 or 40 techniques instead of four. At least, I could answer it for MSK hapkido. The answer might be different for another Kwan.

We always hear about that, that Hapkido has thousands of techniques. I have even seen some very specific numbers, like 3754 or whatever, no doubt based on the Daito Ryu count of 2700 something. But how true is that? Count the techniques in your own Moo Sul Kwan curriculum. Do you approach those kinds of numbers? I asked Dr. He Young Kimm why he chose to leave the Moo Sul Kwan and he said that it didn't have enough techniques for him and that they did the same technique over and over for different grabs. I don't think he would be saying that if there were, as you say, "thousands of techniques, depending on how you count, and all sorts of small variations on many of those".

As I stated, and (as discussed in another thread), it really depends on how you count. Some people count "front kick" as a single technique. Other people count it as a different technique depending on it it is thrown with the back leg or front leg, if it is thrown at the knee or the groin or the head or the solar plexus .. etc.

In regards to what Dr. Kimm said, there are, really, only a few joints in the human body
and a limited number of directions you can apply force to attack those joints.

I don't know exactly what he said, nor the context in which he made that statement. But I will say this: the curriculum we train isn't intended to limit us to those specific techniques.

The idea is, by training each specific lock from a variety of grabs, we learn the principles of joint locking at a deep enough level that in combat, we could very well end up responding in a way that locks a joint in a way never specifically trained.

I've found myself doing it before in controlled "randori" situations (to my delight and surprise) and on one occassion, freed one person's wrist from another person's grasp without thought in what could have quickly escalated into a self-defense situation. They were, instead, wide-eyed into reconsidering their action.

I do think that there are certain techniques, which get used over and over, which does define Hapkido, much like letters in the english alphabet. If the number "FOUR" is what is holding you back, then forget that and concentrate instead on the techniques that define Hapkido.

Ok, now I think I am beginning to understand what you are after. As noted above, with some thought I might be able to give you a list of what I consider to be core, elemental components of hapkido. Four is ridiculously low, in my opinion.

Does the Moo Sul Kwan advocate the breaking of joints?

Yep, semantics aside.

I would put "pressure point" and "vital strike" together. I do think that it is important to know what the target is, no matter what technique or application you are performing.

I would say that if there was no spin hook kick in the curriculum, then it isn't really Hapkido and that it should be called something else, whether it is Yusool, Yukwonsool, Yawara, etc, the names that GM Choi used. By the way, which kicks did GM CHOI Yong Sul bring back?

I could agree with your first statement. Your question would best be answered by one of those branches who train only what Choi brought back and claim that is a more pure hapkido. In my opinion, it didn't become hapkido until other things, such as a more extensive kicking curriculum, were introduced into the mix.

But Hapkido does apply it differently. Roundhouse kick for example.

Definitely.

ok. One example that you mentioned in another thread was that if someone were rushing you straight on, you would throw a front kick as a possible response. Is that from your Hapkido toolbox? If so, which part of the foot do you use when throwing the Hapkido front kick? I ask because my Hapkido teachers (including but not limited to GM JI Han Jae) never taught the front kick with the ball of the foot.

Yes, front kick with ball of the foot IS one of my hapkido tools. And one of my favorite. We also train a front thrusting heel kick.

I don't fault your instructors for not including it in your curriculum; I'm sure they have some reasons. Do you see any reason it shouldn't be included as part of hapkido?


Lee H. Park wrote that,

"Choi Young Sool (the founder of modern Hapkido) with Ji Han Jai, Won Kwang Wha, Suh In Syuk, and Kim Moo-ung were interested in revitalizing a unique Korean art of self-defense system, with the emphasis on a free-fighting combat technique using punching, kicking, throwing, locking, choking, and weaponing to repel an opponent."

So maybe my answer, then, to the original post is:

"punching, kicking, throwing, locking, choking and weaponing."

Is six few enough?




Respectfully and in a spirit of light-hearted discussion on what I hope is a dear subject to all of us

 

[puunui]

As I stated, and (as discussed in another thread), it really depends on how you count. Some people count "front kick" as a single technique. Other people count it as a different technique depending on it it is thrown with the back leg or front leg, if it is thrown at the knee or the groin or the head or the solar plexus .. etc.

How it is for us is I believe the foot part that is used as opposed to target area, at least for the front kick types kicks. For example, we have a front kick using the toe, another with the blade, and another using the heel. We don't use the ball of foot though.

The idea is, by training each specific lock from a variety of grabs, we learn the principles of joint locking at a deep enough level that in combat, we could very well end up responding in a way that locks a joint in a way never specifically trained.

Right. We have that spontaneous moments where we do something or apply something in a different context. It generally happens at the mid range dan ranks, not so much at the color belt or low dan ranks.

I could agree with your first statement. Your question would best be answered by one of those branches who train only what Choi brought back and claim that is a more pure hapkido.

I can understand a certain amount of pride in learning directly from GM CHOI Yong Sul and thinking that is somehow "purer", which on some level, it probably is. But what I don't understand is when the students of students of students feel that their Hapkido is purer because of that GM Choi connection.

In my opinion, it didn't become hapkido until other things, such as a more extensive kicking curriculum, were introduced into the mix.

I agree. What makes Hapkido different from Daito Ryu are the Korean aspects of the art which were added on by the students of GM Choi. That is why I think it is true and correct to refer to GM Choi as the Father of Hapkido, because he gave birth to the students who collectively went on to create Hapkido as their expression of what they learned.

Yes, front kick with ball of the foot IS one of my hapkido tools. And one of my favorite. We also train a front thrusting heel kick. I don't fault your instructors for not including it in your curriculum; I'm sure they have some reasons. Do you see any reason it shouldn't be included as part of hapkido?

I remember seeing a video from GM Wollmershauser whereing GM CHOI Yong Sul did a front kick with his toe as part of a technique. I also seem to remember that originally in Okinawan Karate they performed the front kick with the toes as well. So from that perspective, the ball of foot front kick is a relatively new development. Having said that I don't think there is any reason not to add a ball of foot front kick to one's Hapkido curriculum, as more than Taekwondo practitioners add in a spin hook kick or ax kick, two kicks that originally came from Hapkido. I just try to keep them separate in my own mind as to what came from where.

Lee H. Park wrote that, "Choi Young Sool (the founder of modern Hapkido) with Ji Han Jai, Won Kwang Wha, Suh In Syuk, and Kim Moo-ung were interested in revitalizing a unique Korean art of self-defense system, with the emphasis on a free-fighting combat technique using punching, kicking, throwing, locking, choking, and weaponing to repel an opponent."

I notice be doesn't say "breaking" joints.

So maybe my answer, then, to the original post is: "punching, kicking, throwing, locking, choking and weaponing." Is six few enough?

It could very well be.

Respectfully and in a spirit of light-hearted discussion on what I hope is a dear subject to all of us

If I had to choose only one martial art, it would be Hapkido.