I was asked to set up a basic...

[Juany118]

Sounds well thought out. When you know the length, I’ll be happy to share more thoughts about timing and pace.

Thanks!!!

I’ve had mixed results with new folks. Timid people are somehow more able to put intent into a slap or palm strike in early training.

There is that too. I think part of the timidity is the fear of injury. I like, and agree with, much of what is said here

"The Plus Side of the Punch

• With a good punch you can knock out your opponent.

• The punch seems very natural to most of us. It is as if we have been born punching. To switch to another technique would be unnatural. This might cause us to hesitate.

• You are using your bones, the hard knuckles. This is very powerful.

The Down Side of the Punch

• Difficult - Many people, especially women or non-combatant types, actually do not know how to make a punch. As a Krav Maga instructor I can tell you that teaching someone for the first time how to make a proper fist is a challenging task. Sometimes I will say, "Let's just go with the open palm strike, it is easier to learn".

• Broken Hands – Many people in real life situations actually break their hands while punching. Even experienced boxers have broken their hands in street fights. Without the protection of a boxing glove the hand is rather fragile. If your fist meets the person's hard head, for example, the fist loses and you break your hand. If you are a police officer this means you will have trouble shooting your hand-gun.

• Choosing the Correct Targets - Using a punch effectively involves training and understanding where a punch can work and where it can not. As noted, certain body parts are not good targets for the punch, such as the top of the head.

The Plus Side of the Open Hand

• Using the open hand involves almost no risk of injury to your hand. If you strike with your palm you cannot break your knuckles or fingers. Thus, it is relatively risk free.

• Almost any part of the head or neck can be an effective target and little training is necessary to use the palm strike.

The Down Side of the Open Hand Strike

• For people used to punching it may be difficult to adjust to an open hand strike."

The only thing I would say I don't agree with here is that I have seen KOs from a properly executed palm strike.

(Source... Open Vs. Closed Hand Striking)

 

[JowGaWolf]

D. the foot "strike" would be the oblique kick to the knee/thigh.

This may be a little advance for a self-defense class. I say this from what I experienced when I tried to teach it to fellow martial artist. Originally I thought it would be something easy for people to pick up, but it really isn't. Most people tend to golf swing the leg with this type of kick. The fact that we normally see Jon Jones do this kick in MMA is probably a good sign about the difficulty.

It's a simple kick in concept but in execution and application it may be too difficult. I even see some Wing Chun practitioners have difficulty with it.

 

[Juany118]

This may be a little advance for a self-defense class. I say this from what I experienced when I tried to teach it to fellow martial artist. Originally I thought it would be something easy for people to pick up, but it really isn't. Most people tend to golf swing the leg with this type of kick. The fact that we normally see Jon Jones do this kick in MMA is probably a good sign about the difficulty.

It's a simple kick in concept but in execution and application it may be too difficult. I even see some Wing Chun practitioners have difficulty with it.

That is something to consider. My hope was that, since I will be dealing with neophytes, they would be a blank slate in regards to kicking methods.

At least in my own experience, when I have had issues learning techniques, it was more a matter of muscle memory from previous training getting in the way. As an example when I first started WC, if we were doing a drill with lap sau, instead of simply "sticking" I would find myself grabbing because my previous training got in the way and I was instinctively preparing for a lock/take down due to muscle memory.

 

[drop bear]

You aren't using the whole hand though. It appears to be a slap but in reality you are just using the heel of your palm, especially the "meaty" portion "under" the pinky. I don't know why WC keeps the fingers out, but striking with that small surface area causes a goodly amount of damage, not just because of physics but because it can fit into small areas like the "KO" spot under the orbital. I also like it, for self defense applications, because it gives a change for the fingers to get in the eyes, or slapping on the ear etc.

As such my thought process was
1. What still does goodly damage.
2. Minimizes potential injury when striking a hard target. Not just broken fingers but wrist injuries due to poor alignment, lacerations from teeth etc.
3. Also has flexibility/side benefits beyond the full force impact of the strike.

Since this is about creating an opening to escape vs explicitly going for a KO, incidental striking to the eyes, ears etc can be a good distraction. This isn't to say punches aren't effective, of course they are, the thing is with the amount of time (or lack there of) I will have to work with, I am trying to keep to only a few techniques and have said techniques firmly in the "KISS" realm.

You can put a knuckle in to someone's eye though.

From my experience open hand strikes work for people with either hard punches or big meaty hands.

Smaller hands with less pep can at least cut people up even if they are not knocking people out. Which you can also use for making space.

Otherwise most people feel more confident hitting. And you want to go with techniques that they are going to have some faith in using.

 

[Juany118]

You can put a knuckle in to someone's eye though.

From my experience open hand strikes work for people with either hard punches or big meaty hands.

Smaller hands with less pep can at least cut people up even if they are not knocking people out. Which you can also use for making space.

Otherwise most people feel more confident hitting. And you want to go with techniques that they are going to have some faith in using.

Well, I suppose we will have to disagree on what people feel more.comfortable with. Most instructors seem to agree that neophytes find it easier to "palm" than punch properly and that the training to palm correctly, vs punch, is faster for this same group. Don't forget, this is a limited duration self defense classes, not planning a curriculum for a "regular" school.

I think you also underestimate how even a small hand can do a powerful palm strike, it's simple physics acutally. The smaller the surface area used to apply energy increases the force of impact. That's why some arts actually have their punch trained to have not the whole fist, but rather only 3, even only 2, knuckles.

While it is a different type of hand strike than the one I am familiar with I think this video goes to the usefulness of a palm strike in "quick" self defense training scenarios.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

That is something to consider. My hope was that, since I will be dealing with neophytes, they would be a blank slate in regards to kicking methods.

At least in my own experience, when I have had issues learning techniques, it was more a matter of muscle memory from previous training getting in the way. As an example when I first started WC, if we were doing a drill with lap sau, instead of simply "sticking" I would find myself grabbing because my previous training got in the way and I was instinctively preparing for a lock/take down due to muscle memory.

You could always go with a snap-kick to the groin instead. Much easier to pull off and it doesn't require as much accuracy as the oblique kick to discourage your target.

 

[hoshin1600]

Otherwise most people feel more confident hitting

Correction,,most men feel more comfortable. This class at the moment is aimed at 18yo school girls.
Totally different emotional mind set and abilities. Many cannot even envision them selves hitting someone or even trying to hurt someone. Not all but some.

 

[Juany118]

Correction,,most men feel more comfortable. This class at the moment is aimed at 18yo school girls.
Totally different emotional mind set and abilities. Many cannot even envision them selves hitting someone or even trying to hurt someone. Not all but some.

That is indeed my thinking. That said just one correction. The cohort is actually mostly 20 something's (and a couple 30 something's) as they are Grad students. This is being set up because my girlfriend is actually part of the cohort. I started teaching her some basics and after speaking with her compatriots they expressed interest as well.

The dynamic you are noting is also why I am looking at the basic blocks/covers to be ones that exploit natural flinch responses. I am trying to have as much of the course as possible take advantage of instinctive responses.

On a side note I am actually interested in any input they may have on the prevention/de-escalation portion. They are all Psychology Grad students and I think they might have some interesting input.

 

[drop bear]

Correction,,most men feel more comfortable. This class at the moment is aimed at 18yo school girls.
Totally different emotional mind set and abilities. Many cannot even envision them selves hitting someone or even trying to hurt someone. Not all but some.

When girls actually fight. Not training.

 

[Juany118]

When girls actually fight. Not training.

There is an old saying though "train like you fight" and when, at most, the course will have a total of 16 hours of training exploiting natural instinct is the most efficient way to get the foundation they will build upon with their own practice I would think.

 

[drop bear]

There is an old saying though "train like you fight" and when, at most, the course will have a total of 16 hours of training exploiting natural instinct is the most efficient way to get the foundation they will build upon with their own practice I would think.

Yeah and almost nobody feels comfortable throwing open hand when the chips are down.

Unless you are really confident with the technique.

 

[Juany118]

I really think you are projecting. If you look at virtually any self defense school, like the KM one I showed earlier, this one: Fist or palm, which is the better strike for self-defense?, this one: Jiu-jitsu Sensei: Open Hand Strikes vs. Punching with a Closed Fist or countless others, say that, especially for women, a palm strike is often the better choice, especially if you are striking the head for a host of reasons that I won't repeat because I think the articles speak for themselves. That is also my personal experience. As one example, I have seen people become "combat ineffective" because the opponent zigged and the punch meant for the nose hit the forehead instead.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This may be a little advance for a self-defense class. I say this from what I experienced when I tried to teach it to fellow martial artist. Originally I thought it would be something easy for people to pick up, but it really isn't. Most people tend to golf swing the leg with this type of kick. The fact that we normally see Jon Jones do this kick in MMA is probably a good sign about the difficulty.

It's a simple kick in concept but in execution and application it may be too difficult. I even see some Wing Chun practitioners have difficulty with it.

Since I don't teach that kick, I can't speak from experience with it, but that's been my experience with a basic front kick. It was simple for me to learn, but seems not so with most folks. The only kick I've taught that seems to be easy for most people is an upward instep kick (the one usually taught for the big groin punt), but it has limited application (that groin punt, and kicks to the upper body when you have managed to force them that far off structure). I just don't do kicks in short-term training anymore, and actually hold them a bit later in my curriculum than I used to.

 

[hoshin1600]

Yeah and almost nobody feels comfortable throwing open hand when the chips are down.

Unless you are really confident with the technique.

its obvious you do not have a lot of experience working with women in the public venue. a large majority have trouble even making a fist due to long nails and such. if your working with MMA women in the gym, yeah they have adapted to the needs of the class so they cut their nails and things like that.
striking for many women does not come natural thus "girl fights" slap a lot and pull hair. (appologies to those who i offended but its true)

 

[Juany118]

its obvious you do not have a lot of experience working with women in the public venue. a large majority have trouble even making a fist due to long nails and such. if your working with MMA women in the gym, yeah they have adapted to the needs of the class so they cut their nails and things like that.
striking for many women does not come natural thus "girl fights" slap a lot and pull hair. (appologies to those who i offended but its true)

Not only nails. Women will often wear rings, sometimes multiple, that can make forming a correct fist problematic. Then you add in the fact that even for a male forming a "solid" fist is actually a learned skill.

That's why, for pure self defense (stun em and run) training I think the palm makes more sense. You just have to teach how to apply the energy. You don't need to worry about proper fist structure or wrist alignment. You would use the proper fist in a "I want to take em out" because it can be more effective on soft targets but "I want to take em out" isn't the point of self defense imo. Self defense, if the non-combative elements fail, is about "stun and run."

 

[oftheherd1]

You could always go with a snap-kick to the groin instead. Much easier to pull off and it doesn't require as much accuracy as the oblique kick to discourage your target.

Effectively used, it can be a good tool. Personally, I have always taught not to rely on it too much. Whether going for a man's gonads, or symphysis pubis, it only takes a shift of one leg to the inside, to cover both. Also, there are some men who can take a shot to the gonads and quickly shake it off. I always tell people to go for a knee. I think that is an easier target, not as commonly protected, doesn't require as much speed, and harder to recover from.

Of course, with either kick, speed and accuracy are important.

I understand not everyone will agree.

 

[Juany118]

Since I don't teach that kick, I can't speak from experience with it, but that's been my experience with a basic front kick. It was simple for me to learn, but seems not so with most folks. The only kick I've taught that seems to be easy for most people is an upward instep kick (the one usually taught for the big groin punt), but it has limited application (that groin punt, and kicks to the upper body when you have managed to force them that far off structure). I just don't do kicks in short-term training anymore, and actually hold them a bit later in my curriculum than I used to.

You both maybe right. I was thinking that kick would be useful simply as a maintaining distance tool. I think I might use my girlfriend as an experiment. She has no formal training at all and often jokes how a hippy like her ended up with a cop. I figure if I can teach her the kick I can teach anyone. If I can't, then I need to think about another "distance tool."

 

[JowGaWolf]

Since I don't teach that kick, I can't speak from experience with it, but that's been my experience with a basic front kick. It was simple for me to learn, but seems not so with most folks. The only kick I've taught that seems to be easy for most people is an upward instep kick (the one usually taught for the big groin punt), but it has limited application (that groin punt, and kicks to the upper body when you have managed to force them that far off structure). I just don't do kicks in short-term training anymore, and actually hold them a bit later in my curriculum than I used to.

I've seen the same thing with the front kick as well. I think there has to be a basic athletic ability that people normally get through play as a child. If they miss out on that as a kid then it becomes more challenging as an adult.

a large majority have trouble even making a fist due to long nails and such.

I had a woman try a kung fu class. She enjoyed the class and she had long nails. It wasn't a problem for me as an instructor, but she asked me to be honest with her, when I she told me that she really want to learn how to use kung fu. She told me she likes Wing Chun and I told her that wing chun sucks lol. Just kidding. But she did say that she wanted to be able to defend herself. She saw my reaction to her statement and asked me to be honest. I told her tthere is no way she could make a proper fist with nails that long and as a result many of the punching techniques would be useless. Then she asked me should she cut her nails (which were very nice). I told her only if she wants to be able to use the punches. That was the last day that I saw her.

Some women take pride in their nails and spend a lot of money on them, so cutting their nails for a fight that may never happen, tends to be a bad selling point. Women who are serious about their self-defense will cut their nails so they can learn and then grow them out later once they learn the techniques. Many who cut their nails tend to keep the nails at a decent length because they enjoy punching once they get fairly good at it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You both maybe right. I was thinking that kick would be useful simply as a maintaining distance tool. I think I might use my girlfriend as an experiment. She has no formal training at all and often jokes how a hippy like her ended up with a cop. I figure if I can teach her the kick I can teach anyone. If I can't, then I need to think about another "distance tool."

As someone else pointed out, the stomp kick from the ground is pretty simple and useful. It's the second thing I teach from the ground (the first is a pretty simple variation of a single-leg takedown from kneeling), and the first thing I'll teach from the ground in a short format. I teach it with the aim of taking the leg from under them to gain space to get up. Later, that integrates with other groundwork.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've seen the same thing with the front kick as well. I think there has to be a basic athletic ability that people normally get through play as a child. If they miss out on that as a kid then it becomes more challenging as an adult.



I had a woman try a kung fu class. She enjoyed the class and she had long nails. It wasn't a problem for me as an instructor, but she asked me to be honest with her, when I she told me that she really want to learn how to use kung fu. She told me she likes Wing Chun and I told her that wing chun sucks lol. Just kidding. But she did say that she wanted to be able to defend herself. She saw my reaction to her statement and asked me to be honest. I told her tthere is no way she could make a proper fist with nails that long and as a result many of the punching techniques would be useless. Then she asked me should she cut her nails (which were very nice). I told her only if she wants to be able to use the punches. That was the last day that I saw her.

Some women take pride in their nails and spend a lot of money on them, so cutting their nails for a fight that may never happen, tends to be a bad selling point. Women who are serious about their self-defense will cut their nails so they can learn and then grow them out later once they learn the techniques. Many who cut their nails tend to keep the nails at a decent length because they enjoy punching once they get fairly good at it.

Everyone has their priorities. To join my program, nails have to be cut short - more an issue for grappling, obviously. That does limit who will join.