I found my perfect conbo for martial arts cross training

[Abbax8]

With the greatest respect to all styles and to all MA's here, I just need to get on my soap box. The discussion of there is no complete art is not entirely true. What is true is that the way some arts are taught, they become less complete than they truly were when started. As a judoka, I will confine my comments to judo. Judo- IMO- is a complete art when studied and practiced as originally developed by Dr. Kano. It has striking techniques, throwing techniques and grappling techniques. It affords the student a chance to practice in safety and control through kata, and also against a totally uncooperative partner in randori. While it is true there is no punches in randori- that is not the same to say there are no strikes. Grip fighting is is just one or two steps below striking. Foot sweeps and high sweeping for harai goshi, etc. feel and hurt like a kick. If one chooses to train solely for medals and competition, then that is their loss. They are missing the great versatility that is Kodokan Judo.


Peace
Dennis

 

[sammy3170]

I would actually see one of the gracies fight Maurice Smith. Who can do some grappling but is an awesome striker. But I couldn't see it happening now as the UFC's have weight divisions and I can't name one heavyweight Gracie (maybe Rickson).

As for Kodokan Judo(don't get me wrong I love Judo) being complete just because it has certain types of techniques. It still practices pins (which are of limited or no value on the street) and the strikes are similar to that of Aikido and have very little value as far as hitting an attacker in defence goes apart from maybe a couple of strikes before attempting a throw. If you look at things like that the Ryukyu Kempo is a very complete art also we cover Strikes, locks, grappling(standing and on the ground) and throws. We also do Kata which has all of these elements to them. I'm not saying we do kata laying down but in katas such a Naihanchi and Kusanku (to name a random couple) have all sorts of techniques which aren't visible to the untrained eye (me included) including grappling and throwing techniques.

How much must a style cover each area for it to be considered complete?

Cheers
Sammy

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Abbax8

and also against a totally uncooperative partner in randori.


Peace
Dennis

Judo randori resembles street fighting even less than sparring does. I have never seen two people even come close to wrestling like they do in randori on the street just as I haven't seen two people bounce around trying to hit each other (tapping or full contact). It just doesnt happen.

One method we use where I train is called pooling. We get divided in to groups and put on our body gear, head gear and nut cups etc. One group is in the middle just chatting or what ever when a person from the outside group comes in and picks a fight or just trys to belt someone from the inside group. It's then on for young and old. The idea being for the middle group to pool in the centre again back to back looking out for each other and not going off by themselves. The only thing asked is that because of the body and head gear that when the outside attackers feel that the got hit good and would have gone down they are to back off because it is difficult to judge when padded. It is fun but it has a very real and chaotic feel to it just like a confrontation in the street.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by sammy3170

If you look at things like that the Ryukyu Kempo is a very complete art also we cover Strikes, locks, grappling(standing and on the ground) and throws. We also do Kata which has all of these elements to them
Cheers
Sammy

I hope this doesn't turn into a "My art is better than your art" posting.



7sm

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by 7starmantis



I hope this doesn't turn into a "My art is better than your art" posting.



7sm

Not at all I was just using what I said as an example of how a lot of arts can be descibed the way abbax8 described Judo. I also asked the question in red to try and take away that impression from my post.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[Bod]

It ((Judo - ed)) still practices pins (which are of limited or no value on the street)

Pins are indeed of little value on the street. However, there are still those daft tiffs people often get in (a relative, drunken friend, drugged-up co-worker etc. etc.), where pinning the other person is very useful.

Secondly, if you've done any ground fighting, you'll realise that the skills and strategies learned on the ground combined with 'dirty' tactics would do a lot to make up for a womans lack of strength in a self defence situation. I can't see where drilling in unpinning your legs, and using the whole body's strength is going to undermine a woman's ability to fight a man. As an anti-rape strategy, ground fighting comes into its own, provided the strategy is not to go to ground, but once on the ground to use your skills.

Thirdly, Judo may have atemi in, but as practised today, throwing is certainly the specialisation. Conversely, a complete system may contain throwing, but the way the system is trained often makes it very hard to practise the throwing techniques.

 

[Abbax8]

As I said in my post, it is the way the system is practiced that determines its' utility in self defense. Again confining myself to judo. Most fights I have seen or been in on the street usually starts with pushing or shoving, accelerates to wild punches or maybe kicks, someone ususally tries to grab and maybe get a headlock type hold, then they fall to the ground. In such a situation, judo training is excellant- defense against strikes are taught, striking techniques are taught, close quarters fighting is experianced so the shock factor is eased. As an aide on a behavior ward, I was attacked sometimes more than a dozen times per shift by patients who were incredibly strong, fast and unpredictable. I was attacked with slaps, kicks and bites. In close a head butt was a real possiblity. Chairs, belts and any useful weapon were often featured. It was my judo training, the randori that trained me to move and pivot, to direct and defelect the attacks that saved my butt. Feel free to disagree this me, but you won't change my mind. The police officers who have trained in my class also have thought that what I taught them has practical value.

Peace
Dennis

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Abbax8

As I said in my post, it is the way the system is practiced that determines its' utility in self defense. Again confining myself to judo. Most fights I have seen or been in on the street usually starts with pushing or shoving, accelerates to wild punches or maybe kicks, someone ususally tries to grab and maybe get a headlock type hold, then they fall to the ground. In such a situation, judo training is excellant- defense against strikes are taught, striking techniques are taught, close quarters fighting is experianced so the shock factor is eased. As an aide on a behavior ward, I was attacked sometimes more than a dozen times per shift by patients who were incredibly strong, fast and unpredictable. I was attacked with slaps, kicks and bites. In close a head butt was a real possiblity. Chairs, belts and any useful weapon were often featured. It was my judo training, the randori that trained me to move and pivot, to direct and defelect the attacks that saved my butt. Feel free to disagree this me, but you won't change my mind. The police officers who have trained in my class also have thought that what I taught them has practical value.

Peace
Dennis

Don't get me wrong I love Judo and I kno the benefits are there but you incinuated that randori resembled street combat which it doesn't. There are elements to randori (as you mentioned) which would assist you on the street just as there are in sparring but neither resembles street fighting and neither should be used to gauge how well something would work against an aggressive assailant. You could have someone in class come at you with all guns blazing and practice. Just a suggestion.

Maybe I could have worded myself a little better.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[Bod]

I agree that Judo is extremely effective for self defence, in many circumstances, because you use techniques which you have used on a resisting opponent. Also many fights are bigger guys rushing smaller guys, trying to get in close to avoid being struck, and grappling skills are very useful in these situations. You get used to having the wind knocked out of you, and carrying on when you are punched unexpectedly.

Some of the other skills are useful even if not designed that way. Grip fighting teaches you to block in a fluid manner, which classical Judo blocks don't promote.

I love Judo, and it has given me a lot of confidence, because I know what I know and what I don't. I know how the techniques feel in practice, against a resisting opponent.

However, I still temper this love with the knowledge that Judo isn't everything, and that some of the more sport oriented moves and ways of training are not street safe. It is not a true multiple opponent art, especially if played in a stiff way, with your arms defensively gripping your opponent.

That's why I always try to move and be fluid, making 'pretty' Judo, because that's going to be useful on the street. I concentrate on sweeps and standing throws from the orthodox position which protects your ribs. I'm acutely aware of where my nuts are and where my opponents head is in ground fighting.

I also practise kung fu striking, blocking, kicking and elbow drills to supplement my Judo practice.

Judo is great, I believe it's one of the best kept secrets in martial arts*, but I'm careful to be aware of the limitations of the way I train.

* A Geoff Thompson quote.

 

[Zujitsuka]

Originally posted by Bod

I agree that Judo is extremely effective for self defence, in many circumstances, because you use techniques which you have used on a resisting opponent. Also many fights are bigger guys rushing smaller guys, trying to get in close to avoid being struck, and grappling skills are very useful in these situations. You get used to having the wind knocked out of you, and carrying on when you are punched unexpectedly.

Some of the other skills are useful even if not designed that way. Grip fighting teaches you to block in a fluid manner, which classical Judo blocks don't promote.

I love Judo, and it has given me a lot of confidence, because I know what I know and what I don't. I know how the techniques feel in practice, against a resisting opponent.

However, I still temper this love with the knowledge that Judo isn't everything, and that some of the more sport oriented moves and ways of training are not street safe. It is not a true multiple opponent art, especially if played in a stiff way, with your arms defensively gripping your opponent.

That's why I always try to move and be fluid, making 'pretty' Judo, because that's going to be useful on the street. I concentrate on sweeps and standing throws from the orthodox position which protects your ribs. I'm acutely aware of where my nuts are and where my opponents head is in ground fighting.

I also practise kung fu striking, blocking, kicking and elbow drills to supplement my Judo practice.

Judo is great, I believe it's one of the best kept secrets in martial arts*, but I'm careful to be aware of the limitations of the way I train.

* A Geoff Thompson quote.

Speaking of Geoff Thompson, here is an article posted on his site where he discusses cross-training. Click on the link below,

http://www.geoffthompson.com/articles/article_questions_for_geoff.htm

 

[7starmantis]

I think judo can be very effective, but it is a system that needs to be suplimented. I don't think that alone it provides the street defense some claim.


7sm

 

[ace]

:redeme:
If M.M.A. is what U want to do then go for it
With all your heart.

I have the same quest & im 1-0 rite now
I cross train & have found that
It is the way to
:asian:
Primo

 

[JDenz]

I to agree that if you want to be a good fighter you must crosstrain. A punch is a punch a kick a kick the only diffrence is when and how to throw really. In all my time in the martial arts I have noticed that everything is similar enough that it probley would be confusing if you were trying to build rank and understand a system, and for the same reason that is why crosstrianing for fighting is a good thing

 

[Nightingale]

Personally, I like kenpo. It provides all I'm looking for in self defense. However, I do crosstrain... and the only reason I cross train is this: I want to know what my opponent knows. I'm still going to use my kenpo, I just want to know what to expect against a TKD, KF, or whatever person

 

[ace]

Good For U
I see nothing wrong with that at all.
But This guy Want's t to do M.M.A.

If U are going in to M.M.A.
with out Grappling Knowledge
It is like swiming with Parana & an opean cut
.:snipe2:
:bomb:
Primo

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by JDenz

I to agree that if you want to be a good fighter you must crosstrain. A punch is a punch a kick a kick the only diffrence is when and how to throw really. In all my time in the martial arts I have noticed that everything is similar enough that it probley would be confusing if you were trying to build rank and understand a system, and for the same reason that is why crosstrianing for fighting is a good thing

I'm confused, what did you just say ? IT would be confusing to build rank because all systems are so similar, so its good to cross train because you can fight better?

I must be missing something ?


7sm

 

[ace]

I belive what Jdenz is tryin to say
is that We have 2 arms
2 Legs & a head

Most System share a comon thread.
If U are trying to make it in M.M.A.
Then shooting for rank may
confuse U:idea:
:moon:
Primo

 

[JDenz]

what i meant is if you are trying to use one system only in a dojo but you are crosstrianing in more then one style it is easy to get confused. if you are supposed to parry something and step out of the way and redirerct the energy like in Aikido insted of blocking and attacking like in karate. This could hold your progess and even your understanding of the art back.
Where as in MMA it doesn't matter what you do as long as it works.

 

[Angus]

Well, that just brings us back to one of the original points: If you want to cross train to be proficient in BOTH arts (rather than MMA, which is jack-of-all-trades situation, but not necessarily a bad thing), then it makes much more sense to pick two arts that are similiar in some ways, if not many. For example, it's probably a good idea to mix Hapkido with Taekwondo, rather than something like Muay Thai, because the striking and movement/footwork will be much more similiar, because of the similiar origins. Karate and Aikido, IMO, don't make a good combo because Karate is very linear in movement while Aikido is circular. The key to cross training is finding arts that COMPLIMENT each other, not contradict each other. Not that you can't do that, but it makes it much easier.

 

[Abbax8]

"I think judo can be very effective, but it is a system that needs to be suplimented. I don't think that alone it provides the street defense some claim."

Don't confuse what you see at most tournaments for Classical Kodokan Judo. The stiff arm bent over jigotai is not judo and 30 years ago would have been penalized very quickly. There are penalties today, but competitors make a game of doing fake attacks to not get called for defensive judo or stalling. The judo I try to teach, the judo I am talking about as useful for self defense is upright, fluid motions. You blend with the attack and guide to your best advantage. Randori practiced like this is the only training I have had that prepared me to defend myself against attackers, both at work and on the street. It works, its effective and its complete with strikes and holds as well as throws. Since I have used it successfully numerous times to defend myself against armed and unarmed opponents, but never against a gun, PRAISE GOD!, I will still stand by my statements of judo being complete, at least as complete as any art will be.


Peace
Dennis