Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
"Kinda weird you just threw in a little misquote of me just in the middle of your post? What I was saying about iron arm is that I train with guys twice my size and muscle strength, meaning not against easy non-resisting opponents. About being caught unawares, its not that you know someone is hiding behind that wall, its that you are trained to the point that your body in "aware" and in a situation like that, you can react quickly enough to thwart the attack. You disagree with what my instructor is teaching me? What is that exactly? What do you disagree with so "vehemently"?"
7starmantis my friend you take me far too seriously, I was speaking to Nightingale not to you. I directly quoted you in response to you saying you didn't mention your training when in fact you had and I was being silly and kind of pulling a "yes you did!" The rest of my post was in relation to Nightingales post and was in no way directed at you. Truth is I don't actually disagree with you, but I like a good discussion. I would love to train what you are training. I myself practice similar techniques involving evasion and sidestepping to get around my attacker, sometimes with a trip, sometimes a strike, but I will admit that I don't put as much faith in them as you do. That is why I would love to practice your art and see if I could pick up something brand new that really worked for me.
And yes I know all about not being caught unawares, its the best self defence training I can offer women besides the" not looking like an easy target or victim" to hopefully avoid the whole self defence situation before it even begins. I am always "alert", always ready... I think to practice martial arts your whole life you naturally heighten your awareness and keep an eye out for possible problems without living in a state of paranoia. Kind of like an easy going "oh look, that guy behind me is closing the distance and I see someone poking out from the alleyway ahead of me." Not like I'm going to "ninja flip" on them or anything but I'm aware of suspicious behaviour and if anything did happen I would react quicker than if caught completely by surprise. Like I said earlier though, I train for the worst scenario and to me that involves getting jumped completely by surprise.
When referring to Nightingale I said I disagree vehemently with what her instructor has taught her in relation to her statement "DONT BE CAUGHT UNAWARES. If you don't know someone's there before they attack, there isn't a whole lot of anything you can do." I feel that there will be times you are caught completely unawares and that there is in fact much you can do to save the situation. Her instructor seems to be teaching her that its all over at that point and I strongly disagree. I teach womens self defence for the average woman, not a trained martial artist. So I'm not counting on their ninja skills to spot potential trouble before it happens, I'm teaching them what to do and how to fight when they are already grabbed and going down. To teach women with no training like they can do more than what they are truly capable of is actually dangerous. Your giving them a false sense of safety and reality. I would probably teach trained martial artist women more for before getting grabbed and taken down but really stress the groundfighting skills for the worst possible scenario so they are fully prepared.
KennethKu, I agree biting is one of the best self defence weapons for women, even for me if I felt threatened enough.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
7starmantis my friend you take me far too seriously, I was speaking to Nightingale not to you. I directly quoted you in response to you saying you didn't mention your training when in fact you had and I was being silly and kind of pulling a "yes you did!" The rest of my post was in relation to Nightingales post and was in no way directed at you. Truth is I don't actually disagree with you, but I like a good discussion. I would love to train what you are training. I myself practice similar techniques involving evasion and sidestepping to get around my attacker, sometimes with a trip, sometimes a strike, but I will admit that I don't put as much faith in them as you do. That is why I would love to practice your art and see if I could pick up something brand new that really worked for me.
And yes I know all about not being caught unawares, its the best self defence training I can offer women besides the" not looking like an easy target or victim" to hopefully avoid the whole self defence situation before it even begins. I am always "alert", always ready... I think to practice martial arts your whole life you naturally heighten your awareness and keep an eye out for possible problems without living in a state of paranoia. Kind of like an easy going "oh look, that guy behind me is closing the distance and I see someone poking out from the alleyway ahead of me." Not like I'm going to "ninja flip" on them or anything but I'm aware of suspicious behaviour and if anything did happen I would react quicker than if caught completely by surprise. Like I said earlier though, I train for the worst scenario and to me that involves getting jumped completely by surprise.
When referring to Nightingale I said I disagree vehemently with what her instructor has taught her in relation to her statement "DONT BE CAUGHT UNAWARES. If you don't know someone's there before they attack, there isn't a whole lot of anything you can do." I feel that there will be times you are caught completely unawares and that there is in fact much you can do to save the situation. Her instructor seems to be teaching her that its all over at that point and I strongly disagree. I teach womens self defence for the average woman, not a trained martial artist. So I'm not counting on their ninja skills to spot potential trouble before it happens, I'm teaching them what to do and how to fight when they are already grabbed and going down. To teach women with no training like they can do more than what they are truly capable of is actually dangerous. Your giving them a false sense of safety and reality. I would probably teach trained martial artist women more for before getting grabbed and taken down but really stress the groundfighting skills for the worst possible scenario so they are fully prepared.
KennethKu, I agree biting is one of the best self defence weapons for women, even for me if I felt threatened enough.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Thats what I love about JKD!! Its realistic!
Damian Mavis, That was the first time I had mentioned anythign about my training, I mentioned it because it had become important in the conversation. I do have to agree with Nightingale about the take downs though. I mean, do you seriously think a 5' 4" 100 pound woman could pull any technique off after being tackled bya 250 pound attacker? Maybe I'm nieve, but it seems to me, all her force on any grappling move would be unsuccessfull. If a 250 pound guy sat on me, it would be little tough and I've trained in MA and weight lifting. I just don't see her pulling off a submission or anything. If I'm wrong, tell me of a technique that would work, I would love to know it. I just think that when grabbed there are reverse Chin Na techniques that will relase you from the grab, better than trying to "duke it out" on the ground. Most attackers aren't goign to pull off a full run football tackle on a victim and expect to get up not injured themselves. I mean, the streets are pretty unforgiving whne hitting them full force. ITs just my opnion though.
I don't mean to take you so seriously, I just really love these dicussions as well. Sometimes I'm just playing "Devils advocate" jsut to get disucssions going, so just take me worht a grain of salt.
7sm
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
Ok well now I'm a little disappointed in you and Nightingale because you 2 keep bringing up grappling and I never said anything about grappling, makes me wonder if your reading my posts! heh. Grappling for an untrained woman is ridiculous. Here is what I said 2 pages ago about womens self defence:
"To me that means the majority of self defence for women should be done on the ground. And I don't mean grappling either. Ramming you fingers into a mans eyesockets until you reach brain or visciously biting his throat or face and not letting go until you've done serious damage or getting a hold of his scrotum and twisting it like a stress relief squeeze toy are the kind of techniques that make a difference when you are completely outweighed and overpowered."
Grappling to me is best left for the experts, because a woman isn't strong enough or heavy enough to pull it off in a panicky situation as far as I'm concerned, not to mention having most of her grappling tools pinned down.... guess that means we totally agree on that.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
"To me that means the majority of self defence for women should be done on the ground. And I don't mean grappling either. Ramming you fingers into a mans eyesockets until you reach brain or visciously biting his throat or face and not letting go until you've done serious damage or getting a hold of his scrotum and twisting it like a stress relief squeeze toy are the kind of techniques that make a difference when you are completely outweighed and overpowered."
Grappling to me is best left for the experts, because a woman isn't strong enough or heavy enough to pull it off in a panicky situation as far as I'm concerned, not to mention having most of her grappling tools pinned down.... guess that means we totally agree on that.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Yeah looks like we do agree. I'm probably going to make someone mad now, but when I say grappling I was refering to ground fighting. I think eye gouging, testicle ripping
, and all of those are very valid defense for women AND men. I just think alot of it should be done before hitting the ground, becasue like you said, most of her tools will be pinned.
7sm
, and all of those are very valid defense for women AND men. I just think alot of it should be done before hitting the ground, becasue like you said, most of her tools will be pinned.7sm
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sammy3170
Guest
That really is a naive and defeatist way of looking at things. Yes, a 100 pound woman is going to have a rough time on the ground with a big guy but there are plenty of techniques that can be taught and drilled to help her get out. Also if most of her grappling tools are pinned then it would be very difficult for her attacker to do anything but pin her so once he starts to concentrate on other things (rape etc) there are many openings which would allow her to pull off techniques. She doesn't necessarily have to pull off some intricate move as a Gracie would, just allow enough room to get up and run.
I know, lets not teach women to punch either as they may break their hand on their attackers face. We couldn't have that now could we.
As long as techniques are drilled enough to be fairly ingrained why assume that it is just women who get 'panicky'. Everyone is affected by the adrenal dump not just women. That sort of talk is just sexist and archaic.
Cheers
Sammy
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sammy3170
Guest
Damien
For some one who lists the arts they practice as submission grappling I sincerely hope no women come to you for advice on it. You can't teach something you honestly don't think would work. But you do call it 'submission grappling' and submitting is not something you want to do in real life. Break, Choke and get the $#@% out of there. Sorry but I can't come to grips with what you are saying.
Cheers
Sammy
For some one who lists the arts they practice as submission grappling I sincerely hope no women come to you for advice on it. You can't teach something you honestly don't think would work. But you do call it 'submission grappling' and submitting is not something you want to do in real life. Break, Choke and get the $#@% out of there. Sorry but I can't come to grips with what you are saying.
Cheers
Sammy
I totally agree with sammy.
I mean 1 finger to the eye of an attacker will definately void his attention of you for atleast 30 seconds to a minute and if he doesn't strike 1 quick hit to the nose squeeze out and then run away.
I mean there are alot of things that can be done a knee to the balls is also acceptable.
I mean 1 finger to the eye of an attacker will definately void his attention of you for atleast 30 seconds to a minute and if he doesn't strike 1 quick hit to the nose squeeze out and then run away.
I mean there are alot of things that can be done a knee to the balls is also acceptable.
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
Sammy sammy sammy.... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for not reading my previous posts so I'll quote myself:
"I teach womens self defence for the average woman, not a trained martial artist. "
So keep in mind that everything I'm saying is coming from this perspective. I actually teach alot more to women that train in the martial arts. I might have one or 2 hours to show 20 women some self defence....everyone from the 200 pound 20 year old who loses her breath after 10 seconds of activity to the 70 year old fragile old lady...... so "I know, lets not teach women to punch either as they may break their hand on their attackers face. We couldn't have that now could we. " Your damn straight I'm not going to waste their time teaching them to punch for freaks sake haha. Do you understand where I'm coming from? And when I mention a panicky situation I'm talking about completely untrained women that might never have been exposed to violence in their lives and will absolutely freak out the first time it happens. I dont have time to teach them proper grappling or boxing and drill that technique into their brain in one hour of self defence training in their whole lives. I am not sexist and archaic and before you say crap like that please read the whole thread instead of taking one post out of context.
"To me that means the majority of self defence for women should be done on the ground. And I don't mean grappling either. Ramming you fingers into a mans eyesockets until you reach brain or visciously biting his throat or face and not letting go until you've done serious damage or getting a hold of his scrotum and twisting it like a stress relief squeeze toy are the kind of techniques that make a difference when you are completely outweighed and overpowered."
These are all gross motor skills techniques that can be easily taught in one hour to someone who will never train in martial arts or self defence again and successfully pull them off in a panicky situation. And I never said men don't get panicky for crying out loud! haha
Anyway Sammy I actually agree with your attitude as it pertains to teaching self defence to women that actually have the time to learn enough stuff but do you realise that theres no way in hell you can teach them what you are talking about in one hour? not realisticly at least to the point where they will actually use it when attacked... after only one hour of training with 20 other women demanding your attention in the same room. Hmmm?
That means when I say women cant effectively use grappling for self defence I mean the women in my example above. I think grappling is excellent for self defence when trained i.e. a certain level of expertise.... I don't mean grandmaster expertise. The women that take a one hour course simply dont have the time to learn grappling or chokes and bring them up to a realistic level.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
"I teach womens self defence for the average woman, not a trained martial artist. "
So keep in mind that everything I'm saying is coming from this perspective. I actually teach alot more to women that train in the martial arts. I might have one or 2 hours to show 20 women some self defence....everyone from the 200 pound 20 year old who loses her breath after 10 seconds of activity to the 70 year old fragile old lady...... so "I know, lets not teach women to punch either as they may break their hand on their attackers face. We couldn't have that now could we. " Your damn straight I'm not going to waste their time teaching them to punch for freaks sake haha. Do you understand where I'm coming from? And when I mention a panicky situation I'm talking about completely untrained women that might never have been exposed to violence in their lives and will absolutely freak out the first time it happens. I dont have time to teach them proper grappling or boxing and drill that technique into their brain in one hour of self defence training in their whole lives. I am not sexist and archaic and before you say crap like that please read the whole thread instead of taking one post out of context.
"To me that means the majority of self defence for women should be done on the ground. And I don't mean grappling either. Ramming you fingers into a mans eyesockets until you reach brain or visciously biting his throat or face and not letting go until you've done serious damage or getting a hold of his scrotum and twisting it like a stress relief squeeze toy are the kind of techniques that make a difference when you are completely outweighed and overpowered."
These are all gross motor skills techniques that can be easily taught in one hour to someone who will never train in martial arts or self defence again and successfully pull them off in a panicky situation. And I never said men don't get panicky for crying out loud! haha
Anyway Sammy I actually agree with your attitude as it pertains to teaching self defence to women that actually have the time to learn enough stuff but do you realise that theres no way in hell you can teach them what you are talking about in one hour? not realisticly at least to the point where they will actually use it when attacked... after only one hour of training with 20 other women demanding your attention in the same room. Hmmm?
That means when I say women cant effectively use grappling for self defence I mean the women in my example above. I think grappling is excellent for self defence when trained i.e. a certain level of expertise.... I don't mean grandmaster expertise. The women that take a one hour course simply dont have the time to learn grappling or chokes and bring them up to a realistic level.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
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sammy3170
Guest
No worries
I read as much as I could and obviously missed a few bits. I do think that one 1 hour self defence lesson by it's self is pretty much useless unless they drill it at home. When defending onesself you can't think back and try to remember what you've learned so it isn't only women who will struggle. Men in the same situation will do exactly the same thing.
Cheers
Sammy
I read as much as I could and obviously missed a few bits. I do think that one 1 hour self defence lesson by it's self is pretty much useless unless they drill it at home. When defending onesself you can't think back and try to remember what you've learned so it isn't only women who will struggle. Men in the same situation will do exactly the same thing.
Cheers
Sammy
Aegis
Purple Belt
I'd also like to make a reappearence here. The reason BJJ has managed to "hand back their asses on a plate" is because they challenge under their own rules. BJJ is great for competition because they take people down to the floor and tie them up on the ground. However, try that in a street fight and you're likely to get your head smashed in by one of your attackers mates from behind.
Having trained in some BJJ then moved on to a modernised traditional form of Jujitsu (confused? I am!) I can say that the style I do would be far superior in a multiple attacker scenario than the usual teachings of BJJ. (when I say this, I mean for a low-ish grade fight, not having trained long enough to see what's on eg the dan grade syllabus in each style).
My point is this: just because a martail art can win in a controlled one-on-one situation DOES NOT make it effective in a street fight, or vice versa. Hence the Gracie Challenge should not be seen as the be all and end all of martail arts.
Having read through this, I can see that I sound much more full of myself than I intended..... Sorry if thispost p****s anyone off.
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
Your right Sammy, it might not help. But if I help just one woman out of a thousand and it saves her... then I can die a happy man. My job isnt to convince women to take more self defence it is to give them their one and only self defence course that they will ever attend (most people dont take self defence seriously and if I offer a free course a bunch show up and then are never heard from again). So I do what I can. And I never said men wouldnt be the same as women in the same situation I just don't give a flying freak about men's self defence quite frankly. As men we have to worry about getting beat up and slight chance of killed (which is pretty bad but very rare). The day men start raping other men once a minute of every hour of every day like they do women then I will put more thought into mens self defence.
AEGIS: also you have to take into account the fact that the Gracies ran the first couple of UFC's and they invited the worst strikers I have ever laid eyes on. They did not invite top notch strikers. I mean they were awful, not like the strikers you see today like Vitor Belfort. I have kept up with the evolution of the UFC type fighters and the Gracies would not get away with the same things today as they did then. And your right the rules conform to a one on one type fight.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
AEGIS: also you have to take into account the fact that the Gracies ran the first couple of UFC's and they invited the worst strikers I have ever laid eyes on. They did not invite top notch strikers. I mean they were awful, not like the strikers you see today like Vitor Belfort. I have kept up with the evolution of the UFC type fighters and the Gracies would not get away with the same things today as they did then. And your right the rules conform to a one on one type fight.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
um... I don't want to sound stupid here, but who are the Gracies?
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
Yes and they are the originators of the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Challenge) that has spawned so many other no holds barred competitions. Royce Gracie was the first brother they put in the octagon and he beat everyone he went against. Not to take away from his skills but the strikers they invited were really crappy strikers the first couple of UFC's.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
You mean from Royce or from anyone? I think the Gracies stopped completely dominating when they started going against more skilled opponents (strikers and grapplers) and the art of NHB itself evolved and the fighters all became more well rounded. The strikers learned grappling and the grapplers learned striking.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Someone told me the UFC was heading towards more standup fighting in its rules. Something about some limits on time for grappling and things? Anyone heard that ?
7sm
7sm
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
Yes the popularity was going down because people did not find watching Royce Gracie and others hug another man on the mat for upwards of 30 minutes with no break very exciting. Royce would tire out his opponent over a long period of time and then take advantage of his fatigue (which makes perfect sense) and make him tap out. So nowadays alot of the competitions involve a time period to do something while on the mat and if nothing is going on they make you stand up again. It's not really to move towards a more standup ruleset its just they dont want a long period of time where no action is going on....it's all about the ratings.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Oh Good! For a while there I thought it was just me having some sort of homophobia attack or something. lolSimilar threads
