I found my perfect conbo for martial arts cross training

[Damian Mavis]

Uh KenethKu... what on earth are you talking about? I train the same way they train in Thailand, I'm getting ready for my first amateur fight in Canada and then when I go down to Thailand in December to train for a month I plan on fighting there too. Do you really think I'm delusional enough to have joined a cardio kick class and think I'll be ready for all that? Bod and Kenethku please explain what you mean. This is Muay Thai we are talking about... you know, THE MOST BRUTAL ring art in the world. I'm perplexed at this turn of events haha. How is Muay Thai watered down? And if what I'm doing is watered down...god help me because I'm in a constant state of healing my bruised, broken and bleeding body.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[MartialArtist]

Muay thai is watered down... Under some cases. Same with EVERY other art that remotely becomes popular in the West. Look at TKD in the US.

 

[Damian Mavis]

I've taken watered down martial arts... and the Muay Thai academy I train at is definately not one of them. I don't know if theres Muay Thai clubs out there "faking" it but I have never seen one. All the clubs I've interacted with have been under Ajarn Chai if that makes a difference. I've never seen this watered down MT you all keep referring too so I have no idea what your talking about but how on earth do you water down MT?! "OK everybody, today we are going to PRETEND to hit eachother in the ring and when we are done that and we all have our pretend injuries we can all pretend to fight in Montreal next month...." I just don't get how you can water down a full contact ring art and expect people to survive in the ring when they go to fight. We even have a professional fighter that fought in Thailand 6 or 7 times training at our academy..... I think if it was watered down he would notice having trained in Thailand for 6 months. I'm still waiting for the explanation from Bod, KennethKu and Martial artist as to what watered down MT is comprised of as I cant even begin to fathom it.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[KennethKu]

Mr Mavis

Sorry I was joking when I mentioned aerobic kickboxing being watered down MT.

I wasn't referring to your MT training at all. I just read the earlier post that mentioned (MT w/o use of elbow and knees), aerobic kickboxing just came to mind. Oh well, joke gone bust.

I have read your post about passing your MT Short, and I am impressed. Wish you the best in your coming MT competition, Mr Mavis. KILL'em !! lol

http://www.worldtaekwondoacademy.com/serv04.htm

May be this may help illustrate aerobic kick-boxing

 

[Damian Mavis]

Omg KennethKu, you and your links... were on earth do you get all these links you can just pull out a hat like that? You are a very talented poster... if I threw a topic at you I'm positive you'd have a link for it. KenethKu....Master of the secret linking arts.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

I've taken watered down martial arts... and the Muay Thai academy I train at is definately not one of them. I don't know if theres Muay Thai clubs out there "faking" it but I have never seen one. All the clubs I've interacted with have been under Ajarn Chai if that makes a difference. I've never seen this watered down MT you all keep referring too so I have no idea what your talking about but how on earth do you water down MT?! "OK everybody, today we are going to PRETEND to hit eachother in the ring and when we are done that and we all have our pretend injuries we can all pretend to fight in Montreal next month...." I just don't get how you can water down a full contact ring art and expect people to survive in the ring when they go to fight. We even have a professional fighter that fought in Thailand 6 or 7 times training at our academy..... I think if it was watered down he would notice having trained in Thailand for 6 months. I'm still waiting for the explanation from Bod, KennethKu and Martial artist as to what watered down MT is comprised of as I cant even begin to fathom it.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Oh? Not watered down?

There are many places that teach muay thai. A lot of the instructors have only been training for about 3-5 years so hence, they won't be as knowledgeable or as experienced as someone else. Even in boxing, I started teaching kids when I was in high school and I only took it for how long then?

Many of the kickboxing clubs that claim they teach muay thai is nothing more than American kickboxing with a few elbows.

Some schools, they teach a few kicks, go do some sparring, and do kicking bag drills. The instructor is not good enough or does not care about how bad their technique is or whatnot.

There is a chain-school called the Two Tiger Gym... One of them teaches muay thai... As well as Inosanto JKD, TKD, and "Shaolin". So you get an idea of how good that would be.

Even some Thai muay thai practitioners feel that it is getting watered down (from combat form)

Before the 1940's, Thai fighters fought bare-knuckled. After World War II, the Thai government became concerned due to the high number of fatalities in the ring and forced some rules to be used: they gave up groin shots, eye pokes, started using weight classes and boxing gloves, and rounds. The Thais felt that this watered down their sport. As a result, Thais place more emphasis on kicks, particularly to the legs; knee strikes; and grappling. These skills score higher points than hand strikes in Thai matches.

 

[MartialArtist]

http://members.aol.com/Thaiboxing2000/ - the webmaster also talks about sport style and military style and how the sport style doesn't have a lot of the techniques the military style has.

Now, the webmaster is obviously bias and does not know what he's talking about when he talks of other styles saying this art lacks this and that and backs up his claims with a few events and goes on the old and monotonous saying of "my art is better than your's" and such and never gives evidence of the opposing side AND there are defintely some. For example, a shuai chiao practitioner, born in Beijing, trained for five years defeating a veteran of muay thai obviously messes his claims up.

 

[MartialArtist]

And TKD and karate practitioners kicking with their front-leg. Huh? I thought it was both? Front for speed, rear for power. Do not use that site to get some strange ideas.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Ok... Martial artist.... I can agree with you about all those crap schools you gave examples of but they are not Muay Thai academys. A Muay Thai academy is pumping out amateur and professional fighters, anything else is probably like what you described as "watered down". My instructor has been doing MT for about 20 years now, we have professional and amateur fighters that train at our club. When we fight at any level we HAVE to follow the traditions and do the traditional dance in the ring before fighting while wearing the traditional garb. Ajarn Chai comes and does all our instructor testing and seminars a few times a year. Our technique level is high because of all this...it is definately not watered down.

I guess I was a little ignorant of all the copy cat schools out there teaching "semi" Muay Thai as I had never heard of such a horrible thing. I thought MT was the last art to not be corrupted by bad instructors and copycats. Ah well.... but will you at least concede that what I do is not watered down MT? Or do I have to train with glue and glass shards on my handwraps to satisfy your sense of non watered down MT? heh That was a joke....kinda.

One more thing...."One of them teaches muay thai... As well as Inosanto JKD", Ajarn Chai and Dan Inosanto have a martial arts family tree that has many schools under it all teaching Muay Thai, JKD and Filipino weapons and martial arts. The instructors at these schools are all certified to teach those arts or they wouldnt be part of the family tree. I dont know about that school you mentioned but my instructor has been training in all this for 20 years and before that he was taking other martial arts. He teaches special forces and police and is respected internationally for his knowledge. Anyway....just wanted you to know that there are alot of MT clubs that also teach JKD and Filipino weapons. And are fully certified and capable of doing so.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Sabaki]

I agree with some of the advice that everyone has given Judo-kid about cross training.

I think it is good to have a base MA to build on, but don't delude yourself into thinking that one MA will cut it if you are looking to have a good rounded set of skills for fighting without rules.

Being a basketball fan I like this example.

A basketball player always has a position on his team, some like the forwards drive to the hoop, they try to score in close. Other players like the guards score from outside.

So these players specialise but they can also dribble, pass, rebound, lay-up or shoot from a distance as to not let their team down in any situation that arises. They have no weaknesses but they do have particular strengths.

I think it is the same in MA. It is good to have strengths e.g. infighting, grappling, long-range kicking etc. but do not neglect your other skills so you can handle whatever situation arises.

What do you guys think?

 

[sammy3170]

If people say that Judo is a watered down art from JuJutsu then Muay Thai is watered down in exactly the same way. It is a competition based art which was developed from Krabi Krabong (forgive the spelling if it is incorrect) which has the same lineage as most martial arts that being it has started in China and been developed and refined is someones own special way in the Asian countries around and in Thailand. Now I'm not saying that it isn't a good art as it produces some phenominal fighters and the training is hard but it is as I said a variation of a different art with competition in mind.

So that aerobic kickboxing comment was way off and not worth commenting on.

Just some thoughts
Cheers
Sammy

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Sabaki

I agree with some of the advice that everyone has given Judo-kid about cross training.

I think it is good to have a base MA to build on, but don't delude yourself into thinking that one MA will cut it if you are looking to have a good rounded set of skills for fighting without rules.

Being a basketball fan I like this example.

A basketball player always has a position on his team, some like the forwards drive to the hoop, they try to score in close. Other players like the guards score from outside.

So these players specialise but they can also dribble, pass, rebound, lay-up or shoot from a distance as to not let their team down in any situation that arises. They have no weaknesses but they do have particular strengths.

I think it is the same in MA. It is good to have strengths e.g. infighting, grappling, long-range kicking etc. but do not neglect your other skills so you can handle whatever situation arises.

What do you guys think?

I don't know, I see the point in it, but I just think if your art is well rounded, then mastering your system is of much greater consiquence then learning basic moves from several.

I like the basketball analogy, but in practice, everyone does the same drills as far as layups, running, handleing, ect. But, only the oustide guys practice 3 pointers, practice intense dribbling, also only the centers, or low post guys work on drop steps, blocking out, ect. There is no need for a center to waste his/her time workign on long shots.


Just my opinion,
7sm

 

[MartialArtist]

What about football?

Linemen, recievers, RB's, tight-ends...

Linemen are the best at blocking. Recievers are usually the best at running their routes and catching. RB's w/ reading holes, running, sometimes going out for catches, etc. Tight-ends have to block, run, and catch. The tight-end is well-rounded, but wouldn't be as good in terms of individual aspects like running, etc.

Or on defense...

Corners, S or F safety, LBers, D-Line

Some may be more rounded like the free or strong safety, but will not be the best in an individual aspect.

A boxer would be a great punches as that's what he focuses on. A military TKD is more rounded as it has grappling, striking of all aspects, but won't be the best as they're focusing on different things.

 

[Bod]

Muay Thai specializes in stand up

This is what I meant. I was trying to say that you can look at it both ways. Muay Thai is not really watered down, just specialised, although you could argue that since it is a ring art it is 'watered down'. I would disagree. Muay Thai simply specialises in a particular type of training to make it possible to practise at full strength without killing the other guy. Pretty much like Judo does.

At the same time though, you can say that you are not looking at a 'complete' art. You have to balance that with the benifits it brings. The main benefit in ring arts is that you learn certain attacking skills well. The defensive skills are usually a small subset of good defensive skills.

For example a Judo player only learns to defend against falling. This is pretty poor overall defence, but that way he can learn to attack hard, because his partner can defend with reasonable ease. Similarly in Muay Thai, because the attacks are limited (specialised) it is possible to defend against what would normally be deadly attacks, thus it is possible to attack full strength.

My argument is that these arts (ring arts) are watered down so that they can be toughened up! Crazy huh?

That is why I wouldn't recommend you studied a ring art alone, even though ring arts are invaluable. A less specialised art should teach you more rounded defence, and footwork for multiple attackers etc. You need to know the limitations of your system, and either train with them in mind, or compensate from outside the system.

 

[Sabaki]

Martial Artist - Yes, that football example is another good analogy. But then again here in New Zealand we play rugby but I have watched football and understand what you mean. I'd really like to try American football, it looks like a lot of fun.

7starmantis - I understand what you are saying. But do you think that your one style is seriously going to be enough. I mean I don't know what style you do but I have never come across a system / style or whatever that gives you the advantage in every aspect of realistic fighting. What style/s do you train in?

I agree that if you cross train too heavily or too early you are liable to spread yourself thin but if you have already developed a strength in a particular area then I would see it as necessary to develop a good understanding of all other areas so that you at least familiarise yourself with these areas.

Remember, in basketball and football you are allowed to choose your position, in fighting it is not so simple. You cannot simply say "hey I do such and such an art and we only fight at long range so stop trying to shoot in and take me down!".

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Sabaki

7starmantis - I understand what you are saying. But do you think that your one style is seriously going to be enough. I mean I don't know what style you do but I have never come across a system / style or whatever that gives you the advantage in every aspect of realistic fighting. What style/s do you train in?

I agree that if you cross train too heavily or too early you are liable to spread yourself thin but if you have already developed a strength in a particular area then I would see it as necessary to develop a good understanding of all other areas so that you at least familiarise yourself with these areas.

Remember, in basketball and football you are allowed to choose your position, in fighting it is not so simple. You cannot simply say "hey I do such and such an art and we only fight at long range so stop trying to shoot in and take me down!".

I train in 7 Star Praying Mantis Kung Fu. I have never seen a situation where I didn't have an advantage in a realistic fight with my system. Mantis focuses on quick and effective hand techniques. We don't use high kicks, and we focus heavily on very small areas. There are several Chin Na-esq techniques, while we have the techniques of plucking and sticking. I'm not trying to sit here and say my art is the best, I just believe that the more I "master" my system the more I do not need to cross train.

I don't think cross training to, "familuraize yourself" with different systems is needed if you spend the time masterin your art. "familiarising" yourself to other systems is only going to create a problem with making your system instinct. And most of the time in basketball or football your position is chosen for you based on your athletic ability, size, strength ect. I was just using those as examples. I don't believe you can chose your fight, but if your masters at your art, you will be rady for any attack.

7sm

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by 7starmantis



I'm not trying to sit here and say my art is the best, I just believe that the more I "master" my system the more I do not need to cross train.

7sm

I feel the same way about kenpo. The more I learn about it, and do it, the less I feel a need to go elsewhere and fill in so-called-gaps. People tend to claim that kenpo lacks grappling techniques. Actually there are several techniques that include grappling moves (Squatting sacrifice, for example), but a lot of kenpo is learning how to get a good, solid base stance, so you don't get taken down. I've done a bit of judo, and what I learned there was basically, if a 130 pound female gets taken down by a 250 pound male, the match is over, so I devote my attention to not getting taken down to begin with.

There is no "perfect" art. I feel the same way about choosing a martial arts that I do about choosing a religion. My art works for me and is the path I choose to follow. A different art may be more suitable for someone else, and everyone needs to look really hard at what they are doing and what they want to get out of the martial arts, analyze, and make the choice that is best for them.

:asian:

respectfully,

nightingale

 

[7starmantis]

Exactly! a woman gets taken down and its pretty much over, regardless. That is why if you truly master your system, you can avoid getting taken down at all. Now, people allways argue this by saying, no one is perfect and you might get taken down. Well, this is tru, but by the same token, if your not perfect and you get taken down even if you are great at grappling you may still be injured. The point is to avoid injury completely. If you have "mastered" those techniques, you are much less likely to be in that situation. And like you said, most systems do touch on grappling, just don't focus on it, simply because you shouldn't be taken down at all.


7sm

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by nightingale8472



I've done a bit of judo, and what I learned there was basically, if a 130 pound female gets taken down by a 250 pound male, the match is over, so I devote my attention to not getting taken down to begin with.

So if you get tackled from the side and taken down your base means nothing. It isn't important how to master a grappling art and submit but choking out or breaking a limb to stand back up is very important. So don't pass off Kenpo as the ultimate and that Kenpoka never get taken down because that is just wishful thinking.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by sammy3170



So if you get tackled from the side and taken down your base means nothing. It isn't important how to master a grappling art and submit but choking out or breaking a limb to stand back up is very important. So don't pass off Kenpo as the ultimate and that Kenpoka never get taken down because that is just wishful thinking.

Cheers
Sammy

I think the idea is to not get tackled from the side.