I find it is common for people to say "karate is not meant for fighting."

[Ironbear24]

My immediate response is "so then what the hell is it for?" That's usually met with some fortune cookie answer like " it is about the journey." Or it is about "personal development."

Why can't it be about both? I never understand the whole fighting is not what it is about mentality not only with karate but with martial arts in general.

Why do we spend hours and hours on practicing punching and kicking, blocking and other things directly related to fighting if it is not about fighting? To me it just sounds ridiculous, that's like saying studying psychology isn't about learning about how people behave and why, it's all about the journey.

Literally no other field has this midnset about it, you go flight school to learn to fly, no one with their is going to tell you pfffft flying lessons aren't about flying. What's wrong with you are you out of your mind?

Do you understand where I am coming from here? It doesn't bother me or anything but is something that has always perplexed me.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

My immediate response is "so then what the hell is it for?" That's usually met with some fortune cookie answer like " it is about the journey." Or it is about "personal development."

Why can't it be about both? I never understand the whole fighting is not what it is about mentality not only with karate but with martial arts in general.

Why do we spend hours and hours on practicing punching and kicking, blocking and other things directly related to fighting if it is not about fighting? To me it just sounds ridiculous, that's like saying studying psychology isn't about learning about how people behave and why, it's all about the journey.

Literally no other field has this midnset about it, you go flight school to learn to fly, no one with their is going to tell you pfffft flying lessons aren't about flying. What's wrong with you are you out of your mind?

Do you understand where I am coming from here? It doesn't bother me or anything but is something that has always perplexed me.

Karate is meant for fighting.

I think the issue is that people fail to say it correctly. Karate is not only meant for fighting.

You may find, in time, that there are other things that karate is 'for'. Some of them are not about fighting, but are indeed about the journey. What journey? The journey of one's life.

In Okinawan and Japan, Karate is often known as 'karate do'. That is 'Empty Hand Way'. A 'do' in Japan refers to a manner in which we live our lives in addition to a thing which we do.

In Japan, flower arranging is a 'do'. Calligraphy is a 'do'. Tea-making is a 'do'. And believe it or not, learning tea-making is not about making tea as much as it is about many other things.

No one has to embrace that part of the art. The art doesn't care if you wish to learn only to kick, hit, and block, or if you want to discover important truths about your own life as you learn to kick, hit, and block. It is entirely up to you what you wish to do, or not do, with regard to your martial arts training.

Some styles of karate have divorced themselves entirely from any form of inner life regarding the art they teach. No problem. Nothing wrong with that.

Other styles of martial art are concerned far more with the inner life than with the actual art itself. Also no problem.

Kyūdō - Wikipedia

Karate, like the archery style known as 'Kyudo' (link above), can contain teachings that are practical, spiritual, and moral (dealing with how to honorably live our lives). If these things do not concern you, do not be worried about them. Not that many people who train care about such things, or they find their inner life and development elsewhere, and this is just fine.

But karate is not only meant for fighting. When human beings meet on a field of battle, when strife can mean serious injury or death, when two people stare into each other's eyes and recognize themselves, while still recognizing that one of them may not rise from the ground, a certain amount of introspection may be engendered.

We live. We strive. We struggle. We fight. We die. We recognize the warrior in each other, as well as the peacemaker. The way we move through life can reflect the way we move through our martial arts training, and vice-versa.

You don't have to consider these things. Some people do.

 

[Kickboxer101]

My immediate response is "so then what the hell is it for?" That's usually met with some fortune cookie answer like " it is about the journey." Or it is about "personal development."

Why can't it be about both? I never understand the whole fighting is not what it is about mentality not only with karate but with martial arts in general.

Why do we spend hours and hours on practicing punching and kicking, blocking and other things directly related to fighting if it is not about fighting? To me it just sounds ridiculous, that's like saying studying psychology isn't about learning about how people behave and why, it's all about the journey.

Literally no other field has this midnset about it, you go flight school to learn to fly, no one with their is going to tell you pfffft flying lessons aren't about flying. What's wrong with you are you out of your mind?

Do you understand where I am coming from here? It doesn't bother me or anything but is something that has always perplexed me.

You do learn to fight but you also learn how to not fight and absolutely it's a journey. If it was just about fighting then kids wouldn't do it. Parents put their kids in karate not so they can beat up people but so they can learn discipline and respect and self control

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My immediate response is "so then what the hell is it for?" That's usually met with some fortune cookie answer like " it is about the journey." Or it is about "personal development."

Why can't it be about both? I never understand the whole fighting is not what it is about mentality not only with karate but with martial arts in general.

Why do we spend hours and hours on practicing punching and kicking, blocking and other things directly related to fighting if it is not about fighting? To me it just sounds ridiculous, that's like saying studying psychology isn't about learning about how people behave and why, it's all about the journey.

Literally no other field has this midnset about it, you go flight school to learn to fly, no one with their is going to tell you pfffft flying lessons aren't about flying. What's wrong with you are you out of your mind?

Do you understand where I am coming from here? It doesn't bother me or anything but is something that has always perplexed me.

I think some of this comes from people wanting to paint a philosophy. I use the word "paint", because some folks seem to need that philosophy to be artistic. The "Karate isn't for fighting", to me, is just their way of saying that we should be better at avoiding fights than at winning them. And that should, in fact, be a goal of Karate-do or any other martial pursuit that's about surviving and self-defense. But the approach and description can be less...oblique.

 

[Tames D]

"Karate is not meant for fighting"

I always felt that people who say this are Karate people that can't fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Wow you guys are really kind.
I guess I'll keep my mouth shut because I really can't stand when people say that "it is about the journey." Or it is about "personal development."
Westerners like to try and remove the hardwork and just pick out what they want.

"About the journey" and "personal development" are by products of hard and honest training regardless of what a person is training be it a martial art or not. These aren't things that a person can just pick out and separate from hard work.

Martial Arts is often seen as a cure for weaklings, victims, people with no self-esteem, and other personal development issues. Training martial arts as it was originally meant is tough, so if a person shows up for class on week one, week2, month 1, month 2. etc. Then they aren't as weak and helpless as they think they are. I've see people who don't have self-esteem because it shows up during class and then they wash out, because they think they can't do something.

Martial arts can't bring out what isn't already there.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think the issue is that people fail to say it correctly. Karate is not only meant for fighting.

Karate is meant for fighting but comes with additional benefits. Is what they should say. People think all fighting is bad, but it's not. Some of the nicest people I know study how to hurt humans through martial arts. Many of the thugs and criminals that I used to know didn't study how to hurt people, they just did it.

Martial demands commitment, dedications, health, and emotional stability from the practitioner. Cruelty demands nothing but cruelty so there's no training required.

 

[Dudi Nisan]

I think that when it comes to dealing with violent people martial arts in themselves are not enough.

Why do we spend hours and hours on practicing punching and kicking, blocking and other things directly related to fighting if it is not about fighting?

You might spend hours and hours but those people have been trained in violence while still in their mother wombs( research has shown that the baby feels violence even in the womb). As infants, toddlers, young children they were constantly beaten. They were trained 24/7 for years.

You might beat them with kicks and punches, but they tend to belong to a group, and they'll come looking for you. They have nothing better to do. And they'd be armed ( with clubs and bats and who knows what else).

There some people today who teach how to avoid fighting with such violent people. And I think that some karate masters of the past had such knowledge. Those masters knew, I guess, that fighting alone would end in theirs, or their students, trauma(even if they "won"). Thus, "karate is not for fighting".

And furthermore, in East Asia people were very sensitive of the corrupting effects fighting (and the thinking about fighting, as in designing fighting techniques etc.) on the mind. They wanted to balance their practice of fighting. They needed to balance it. Instead in focusing on "outer" enemies they shifted the focus to one's "inner" enemy; instead of fighting with others they emphasized fighting one's own moral weaknesses. Thus, again, "karate is not for fighting".

However, fighting one's own moral weaknesses requires intense training. Karate should be intense. But karate is not for fighting.

 

[Ironbear24]

I think that when it comes to dealing with violent people martial arts in themselves are not enough.



You might spend hours and hours but those people have been trained in violence while still in their mother wombs( research has shown that the baby feels violence even in the womb). As infants, toddlers, young children they were constantly beaten. They were trained 24/7 for years.

You might beat them with kicks and punches, but they tend to belong to a group, and they'll come looking for you. They have nothing better to do. And they'd be armed ( with clubs and bats and who knows what else).

There some people today who teach how to avoid fighting with such violent people. And I think that some karate masters of the past had such knowledge. Those masters knew, I guess, that fighting alone would end in theirs, or their students, trauma(even if they "won"). Thus, "karate is not for fighting".

And furthermore, in East Asia people were very sensitive of the corrupting effects fighting (and the thinking about fighting, as in designing fighting techniques etc.) on the mind. They wanted to balance their practice of fighting. They needed to balance it. Instead in focusing on "outer" enemies they shifted the focus to one's "inner" enemy; instead of fighting with others they emphasized fighting one's own moral weaknesses. Thus, again, "karate is not for fighting".

However, fighting one's own moral weaknesses requires intense training. Karate should be intense. But karate is not for fighting.

Sounds to me you should take up track and field with that mindset. If you put so much value into avoiding the fight then why fight at all? Learn to run and run fast, thing with that though is you can't run from everyone and everything.

I will continue to train to fight better, I do not feel there is anything ugly or wrong with that.

 

[Dudi Nisan]

Sounds to me you should take up track and field with that mindset

 

[JowGaWolf]

There some people today who teach how to avoid fighting with such violent people. And I think that some karate masters of the past had such knowledge. Those masters knew, I guess, that fighting alone would end in theirs, or their students, trauma(even if they "won"). Thus, "karate is not for fighting".

Nope. actually when you go back to karate master of the past, you will see that some of them killed the person they were fighting. It's no different than someone coming into my home and I kill them out of self-defense. In general "martial art masters" were a lot meaner than what we see today. Today's masters have the threat of lawyers and lawsuits that keep them from just fighting anyone at any time.

East Asia people were very sensitive of the corrupting effects fighting (and the thinking about fighting, as in designing fighting techniques etc.) on the mind. They wanted to balance their practice of fighting. They needed to balance it. Instead in focusing on "outer" enemies they shifted the focus to one's "inner" enemy; instead of fighting with others they emphasized fighting one's own moral weaknesses.

This is also not true. Japanese were known for being brutal and Chinese were known for warring for hundreds of years. As far as moral weakness. Power rules everything, just like it does today. People make karate to be honorable but just take a look at the history of karate and you'll see that honorable is not what you think it means. Honorable to them was not the same definition that westerners place on being honorable.

The perspective that you have about karate now is from commercialization.

 

[Dudi Nisan]

Japanese were known for being brutal and Chinese were known for warring for hundreds of years.

Warring and martial arts are not the same. Brutal? only when they had the power. They were not simply walking the streets being brutal.

The law in China and Japan was very strict and it was especially so when it came to inflicting injuries on others. That is one reason people tried to avoid fighting and why Asian masters had to be very circumspect when accepting students--they would be held responsible for their students misbehavior too.

Nope. actually when you go back to karate master of the past, you will see that some of them killed the person they were fighting.

Here for you is a story about Choshin Chibana, supposedly one of those mean masters of the past who fought anyone at any time. From min 32:

 

[drop bear]

mr myagi said it. So it has to be true

 

[JowGaWolf]

Warring and martial arts are not the same. Brutal? only when they had the power. They were not simply walking the streets being brutal.

"Until the early 20th century the Okinawan masters trained in secret, spending three years on each kata and training extensively on a makiwara board; sparring as we know it today was not practiced though karateka would often challenge each other to fights to test their skills." Source: History of Fighting

"
The Okinawans once practiced both unarmed and armed combat openly. This was in the time of conflict between the provinces of Ryūkyū, prior to 1429. Military capability had developed through tribal developments and from the Japanese of the Heian Period, travelling to Ryūkyū and returning with the knowledge of swordsmanship and archery.

In 1509, it was King Shō Shin who put an end to the feudalistic period of the Ryūkyū Kingdom through the Act of Eleven Distinctions, which prohibited the stockpiling and possession of weapons. As a result, unarmed combat began to be cultivated more vigorously."

"Rather than ceasing practice, martial artists began to study at night in darkness to continue to preserve their fighting arts without easily allowing others to see them practising. Only Okinawans knew that the art was practised."

"In 1609, the Satsuma clan of Kyūshū, Japan, invaded and seized control of Ryūkyū. The clan held power over the Ryūkyūan kings for 270 years. When the Satsuma took power, they prohibited the practice of all martial arts by the Okinawans. It is said that the Okinawans fought fiercely before the Satsuma samurai over-powered them."
Source: Historical Origins of Karate

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wow you guys are really kind.
I guess I'll keep my mouth shut because I really can't stand when people say that "it is about the journey." Or it is about "personal development."
Westerners like to try and remove the hardwork and just pick out what they want.

"About the journey" and "personal development" are by products of hard and honest training regardless of what a person is training be it a martial art or not. These aren't things that a person can just pick out and separate from hard work.

Martial Arts is often seen as a cure for weaklings, victims, people with no self-esteem, and other personal development issues. Training martial arts as it was originally meant is tough, so if a person shows up for class on week one, week2, month 1, month 2. etc. Then they aren't as weak and helpless as they think they are. I've see people who don't have self-esteem because it shows up during class and then they wash out, because they think they can't do something.

Martial arts can't bring out what isn't already there.

Self-esteem can be developed. And martial arts (like any activity that requires dedication and develops skill) can be a method of developing that. The same goes for discipline.

I think many people who talk about "the journey" are really just trying to point up the internal benefits of martial arts, perhaps because they got some push-back at some point about "teaching kids to fight".

 

[JowGaWolf]

Karate and Kung Fu are not void of bad people. For some reason western societies think that Kung Fu and Karate = pure of heart. I'm willing to bet that there are karate and kung fu schools today that have jerks that train in the school.. They may not be a jerk inside the school but outside the school is a different story. I'm also willing to bet there there are kung fu and karate students who believe that skills should be used to oppress others. So to think that all teachers who teach martial arts were nice, is not very realistic when you factor in human's ability to do bad.

As for the samurai spirit. Did you know that Samurai considered taking the heads of their enemies in battle as being honorable? Did you know that if they didn't kill anyone in battle that they would sometimes chop the heads off fellow soldiers and lie about it being an enemies head just to rise in social status? Suicide was considered a part of Samurai spirit. Did you know that Samurai would sometimes cut prisoners in half for the sake of testing the quality of a sword, sometimes they would just cut an arm or a leg.

No one creates techniques that injure, kill, and maim people for the sake of finding peace and self-development.

Self-development is a by product of training hard and it's not limited martial arts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think many people who talk about "the journey" are really just trying to point up the internal benefits of martial arts, perhaps because they got some push-back at some point about "teaching kids to fight".

I think so too. I let parents know right away that we teach their kids how to fight and defend themselves. I also explain that knowing how to fight does not mean that someone will all of a sudden just go out and start fights. If their child is violent before martial arts then they will be violent after learning martial arts. This is where instructors get picky about who they teach and how much they teach to a particular student.
I know that I wouldn't teach a child if I thought that child was violent or could clearly see that he or she is violent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Karate and Kung Fu are not void of bad people. For some reason western societies think that Kung Fu and Karate = pure of heart. I'm willing to bet that there are karate and kung fu schools today that have jerks that train in the school.. They may not be a jerk inside the school but outside the school is a different story. I'm also willing to bet there there are kung fu and karate students who believe that skills should be used to oppress others. So to think that all teachers who teach martial arts were nice, is not very realistic when you factor in human's ability to do bad.

As for the samurai spirit. Did you know that Samurai considered taking the heads of their enemies in battle as being honorable? Did you know that if they didn't kill anyone in battle that they would sometimes chop the heads off fellow soldiers and lie about it being an enemies head just to rise in social status? Suicide was considered a part of Samurai spirit. Did you know that Samurai would sometimes cut prisoners in half for the sake of testing the quality of a sword, sometimes they would just cut an arm or a leg.

No one creates techniques that injure, kill, and maim people for the sake of finding peace and self-development.

Self-development is a by product of training hard and it's not limited martial arts.

Heck, I dealt with a black belt who was a bit of an *** inside the school, too. Sometimes they get in, and the instructor doesn't realize it for a long time, or sees them differently than students do. This particular guy would likely never have gotten past his second student rank with me - too arrogant by half.

 

[Tortoise]

My immediate response is "so then what the hell is it for?" That's usually met with some fortune cookie answer like " it is about the journey." Or it is about "personal development."

Why can't it be about both? I never understand the whole fighting is not what it is about mentality not only with karate but with martial arts in general.

Why do we spend hours and hours on practicing punching and kicking, blocking and other things directly related to fighting if it is not about fighting? To me it just sounds ridiculous, that's like saying studying psychology isn't about learning about how people behave and why, it's all about the journey.

Literally no other field has this midnset about it, you go flight school to learn to fly, no one with their is going to tell you pfffft flying lessons aren't about flying. What's wrong with you are you out of your mind?

Do you understand where I am coming from here? It doesn't bother me or anything but is something that has always perplexed me.

Karate is about self defense, not fighting. I believe there is a difference. If you are fighting, you are looking to inflict pain. If I can defend myself without inflicting pain, that would be preferable. If I can defend myself by using a lockflow technique and restraining someone until police arrive, I would prefer that to breaking the opponent's arms, if possible, if my goal is self defense. If I am in a real fight, I would try to break his arm. I may have to break his arm just to defend myself, but I would avoid it if possible.

Why fight? Because you may need to defend yourself from someone who wants to fight whether you do or not, so you have to at least not crumple up into a ball and cry if someone hits you. You need to learn that you can take a hit and keep going. Not the end of the world (hopefully).

Most of us do not believe that we should take karate so we can start and win bar fights, for example. We take karate so if someone starts a fight with us in a bar, we can get hurt as little as possible.

If someone has a weapon and I don't, or if I KNOW they are looking to inflict real harm, I will try to inflict pain and feel no remorse for severe injuries to an attacker. If the attacker is a drunk idiot, possible even an acquaintance, I will try to inflict only the amount of pain necessary to prevent myself from getting hurt.

Maybe this is all semantics, but I think that is the difference between a street fighter and a martial artist.

 

[Kickboxer101]

And you say it doesn't bother you but it obviously does I can just tell your angry about and we know you don't like people insulting things you do