I am frustrated

[tshadowchaser]

I am frustrated.

With in our system we have a simple self defense move that is taught on the first day of class and variations of it are gone over almost every night. Basically the attacker throws a right punch to the chest, the defender dose a middle block with there right arm while stepping to the outside sidling there hand down to the wrist for control. The defender then dose a forearm smash to the elbow, followed by whatever.
My frustration comes from having this technique in one of our forms and seeing students who have been doing this technique for more than a couple years go through the motions and have no idea what they where doing and having difficulty doing the move in the form.
When explained to them after a few days of watching them try to figure out what they where doing that it was simply self defense tech. # 1 they suddenly understand and almost get the move in the form correct. Must every little thing be explained. Should not someone who has done this technique every day start at some time to understand what the move is without being told tech. #1

Am I the only one who has this problem with students not understanding basic concepts

 

[terryl965]

I agree with you Sheldon, the problem is with most students that they only see what the instructor shows them, why I have no ideal at all. I know I have been teaching for thirty years and run across this on a daily aspect withen the dojaang. Have patience and you may want to add like I did an explination of the SD and the form as one and then add the variation once they fully understand. Hope this helps you out in some small way.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Am I the only one who has this problem with students not understanding basic concepts

Some people are intuitive enough to start seeing the connections between things like that, some are not until you show them. Nothing bad or good about that; it's just that some people may not interpolate the patterns in the pieces.

If you don't teach a form in a way that you are teaching what the motions of the form are, many people may not correlate the motions of the form to the motions of the SD.

One interesting exercise is to do a form with another person with that person playing the part of the 'opponent' in the form; this helps to start understanding and visualizing what the parts of the form are supposed to be about.

 

[arnisador]

Students compartmentalize their training--now I'm doing forms, now I'm doing weapons, now I'm doing self-defense, now I'm doing calisthenics--where we want them to see the forest, not just the trees! They need integrative experiences but even then not all of them will study the martial arts, as opposed to taking the martial arts. I don't have a solution, but no matter what subject you teach it's much the same.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Students compartmentalize their training--now I'm doing forms, now I'm doing weapons, now I'm doing self-defense, now I'm doing calisthenics--where we want them to see the forest, not just the trees!

This is reflected in how we teach in general; now I'm learning math, now I'm learning literature, etc... and it is also reflected in how MA schools tend to organize classes. Monday night is forms, Wednesday night if sparring, etc...

I don't think I've seen the teaching of a 'technique' orthogonal across forms, SD and sparring drills, etc..

 

[stone_dragone]

I know for me before I could start thinking for myself, I had to be asked the right questions at the right point in my development.

Now it seems that I have always been able to figure it out, but I know it isn't the case.

When I teach someone how to strip an M16/M4, I have to remember that not everyone has been doing it for as long as I have.

 

[Kacey]

Students compartmentalize their training--now I'm doing forms, now I'm doing weapons, now I'm doing self-defense, now I'm doing calisthenics--where we want them to see the forest, not just the trees! They need integrative experiences but even then not all of them will study the martial arts, as opposed to taking the martial arts. I don't have a solution, but no matter what subject you teach it's much the same.

This is what I was thinking as I was reading. When I was a color belt and junior black belt, I was always amazed at how easily and quickly the seniors were able to learn new moves and perform them correctly. Now, after years of training, I understand that the reason they were able to do so is the integration that arnisador is describing: juniors compartmentalize their training, and don't apply their understanding of one area to other, similar areas. I see the same things with my own students, both at school and in TKD - skills learned in isolation are not applied to other areas; they remain in isolation.

The best thing I can suggest for this would be to break the forms down into their component parts as they're being taught. When I teach forms, I start by teaching the movements and their applications first - in line drills and in step sparring - and then I teach the pattern, a few movements at a time, building on itself until the gestalt of the pattern is completed. Now, that doesn't mean that all students - or even most students - learn all there is to learn about a form the first time they learn it; there are plenty of things about forms I've known for years that I'm still figuring out myself, not because I wasn't taught, but because I have to experience it for myself to understand it.

Also, different people learn in different ways - that's why one of the biggest challenges I face as an instructor, as well as a teacher, is to find as many ways as possible to present information to my students, in the hopes that I will find the right method of presentation for each one. It's also why all of my senior students teach juniors at some point - because performance is one thing, but having to explain how something works to someone else means that you have to understand it yourself. I've had more students have sudden bursts of understanding while teaching than any other way... and quite a few have come to talk to me after teaching to tell me that they have had just that experience, and ask for the opportunity to teach again.

 

[jks9199]

When explained to them after a few days of watching them try to figure out what they where doing that it was simply self defense tech. # 1 they suddenly understand and almost get the move in the form correct. Must every little thing be explained. Should not someone who has done this technique every day start at some time to understand what the move is without being told tech. #1

Am I the only one who has this problem with students not understanding basic concepts

Some people are intuitive enough to start seeing the connections between things like that, some are not until you show them. Nothing bad or good about that; it's just that some people may not interpolate the patterns in the pieces.

I see the same things with my own students, both at school and in TKD - skills learned in isolation are not applied to other areas; they remain in isolation.

The best thing I can suggest for this would be to break the forms down into their component parts as they're being taught. When I teach forms, I start by teaching the movements and their applications first - in line drills and in step sparring - and then I teach the pattern, a few movements at a time, building on itself until the gestalt of the pattern is completed. Now, that doesn't mean that all students - or even most students - learn all there is to learn about a form the first time they learn it; there are plenty of things about forms I've known for years that I'm still figuring out myself, not because I wasn't taught, but because I have to experience it for myself to understand it.

Also, different people learn in different ways - that's why one of the biggest challenges I face as an instructor, as well as a teacher, is to find as many ways as possible to present information to my students, in the hopes that I will find the right method of presentation for each one. It's also why all of my senior students teach juniors at some point - because performance is one thing, but having to explain how something works to someone else means that you have to understand it yourself. I've had more students have sudden bursts of understanding while teaching than any other way... and quite a few have come to talk to me after teaching to tell me that they have had just that experience, and ask for the opportunity to teach again.

Lots of good points.

Each student learns in their own way, but I've found that if you teach them to look for the pattern and application, and to recognize that an "advanced" technique is really just a combination of basics, done smoothly and joined together, most pick up on it quicker.

Some will need to have it spelled out, no matter what. They're typically very detail oriented, and just plain not good seeing the whole; they're the type of people who'll tell you that there are elms, hawthornes, and maples... and never realize that it's a forest. They're not dumb or stupid (in fact, they're often very smart!)... they just don't think that way.

Teaching is a good exercise to break things down; so is working a drill or form with a partner.

What frustrates me more of late are the students that need explanations for everything. "Why do we do this?"... Some folks just aren't wired to accept "practice and it'll come" without a reason spelled out to them. It takes them a long time to learn to discipline themselves into simply doing it.

 

[still learning]

Hello, If the students do not understand applications of the techniques?

Is it the students fault or the TEACHERS?

Our students are just students...trying to learn from "US"

It is the responsiblilty of the teachers to make sure they under what they are doing and to question them again and again to explain back to us what they are doing...

We have to create atmoshere to question "why we are doing this" to help them figure it out...by encouraging them to understand the principles..of each techniques...

Therefore when one is frustrated..by the way the students are learning....?

We must question the way we are teaching? .......There are many ways to teach the same thing....some are better than others...

Example: Right punch coming to you.....ask and tell them way we step here....why our block is up and twisted, and the next move is here because.??? and so on...

THE TEACHER NEEDS TO LEARN HOW TO TEACH....and anyone can be a teacher .....not everyone knows HOW? ..

Just look at our education systems...there are many good teachers as well as terrible ones...who do not know how to get a point across...

Aloha, (Mirror....sometimes gives a true reflections)...one needs to look at!

 

[morph4me]

I understand your frustration, I used to feel the same way when I told a student to take a step and they were trying to figure out how to do it. I could see them trying to figure out how to take a step, then watch them break down the motions. They would lift their knee, put down the heel, roll to the front of the foot, all very intentionally and mechanically, and this is something they've been doing every day since they first learned how to walk.

I think that when we learn something new there is a tendency to try to understand a particular action in a particular context, it takes a while before we are able to change the context.

 

[theletch1]

Tom, I've always liked your belief that different students need to hear the same thing different ways. What clicks for me won't always click for another student who hears the exact thing that I did. The same goes for understanding the basic theories and concepts as they apply to other parts of the system. While some will make the leap easily from technique one is simply movements a,b,c and d combined to technique two is movements b,d,a and c others will need to be shown the basic movements over and over again. I'm something of an abstract thinker when it comes to the MA and love to look for similarities of movement. Others in my dojo are very technical in their approach and want to understand that movement a is 45 degrees to the right and not 44 or 46. Sometimes some folks do, indeed, need to see the basics over and over again until they come to realize that everything else in the system is built from the foundation of the basics.

Being able to deal with the frustration and finding other ways of teaching the same thing to different people is what makes you a great instructor, Sheldon.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Hello, If the students do not understand applications of the techniques?

Is it the students fault or the TEACHERS?

I will agree with that BUT iI did say that some of the students have been doing the technique for over 2 years, every night. If after that time they can not reconise it I do not feel it is my responsibility to tell them what it is ( yes I did however). At some point the student needs to look at what they are doing and put 2 and 2 togeather.
I had a newer student trying to learnthe form and he simply stated that the moves where to strange to him and asked if he might work on a less complicated form that he needed work on. I readily allowed this, as I knew he was unable to reconise much of the new form.

 

[jks9199]

I will agree with that BUT iI did say that some of the students have been doing the technique for over 2 years, every night. If after that time they can not reconise it I do not feel it is my responsibility to tell them what it is ( yes I did however). At some point the student needs to look at what they are doing and put 2 and 2 togeather.
I had a newer student trying to learnthe form and he simply stated that the moves where to strange to him and asked if he might work on a less complicated form that he needed work on. I readily allowed this, as I knew he was unable to reconise much of the new form.

The fact that you're frustrated and asking the question indicates that you are teaching; anyone can lead drills. When the teacher has presented the material, explained the material, it remains for the student to pull it together and do something with it.

Or, to use another metaphor, the teacher can only raise the student up so far; the student has to make the final reach to climb to the summit himself.

Often I find that it's that last cognitive step, the ability to not only go through the motions, but to recognize the underlying principle and adapt or adopt it as appropriate that separates students from artists.

 

[DArnold]

I am frustrated.

With in our system we have a simple self defense move that is taught on the first day of class and variations of it are gone over almost every night. Basically the attacker throws a right punch to the chest, the defender dose a middle block with there right arm while stepping to the outside sidling there hand down to the wrist for control. The defender then dose a forearm smash to the elbow, followed by whatever.
My frustration comes from having this technique in one of our forms and seeing students who have been doing this technique for more than a couple years go through the motions and have no idea what they where doing and having difficulty doing the move in the form.
When explained to them after a few days of watching them try to figure out what they where doing that it was simply self defense tech. # 1 they suddenly understand and almost get the move in the form correct. Must every little thing be explained. Should not someone who has done this technique every day start at some time to understand what the move is without being told tech. #1

Am I the only one who has this problem with students not understanding basic concepts

While most understand that students learn in different ways and methods you must apply the same concept to teaching.

Teaching is like an onion, it has layers.

The most basic layer (after being an exercise leader) that beginning teachers use, is to explain everything to the student. Thus you show how much you know and how good a teacher you are. NOT! Just vomiting on a student does not equate to learning.

Through this meathod you satisfy yourself, not the student.

There are many, many methods of teaching that exclude verbal explanation. Just as the body has more senses than hearing, so does teaching!

As you explore these other methods, you will not only learn other methods, but start to understand the different psyche of your students and what works with them.

If you would like more examples send me a note.

 

[CuongNhuka]

As I learn a form, I tend to try to figure out what I'm doing. It seems to shorten the learning curve for me... I'm sure that there are others like me.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Let me explain a little the reason for this thread and my frustration:

If a student comes to class a minimum of 3 times a week all year that is 156 times
Multiply that by doing the same two opening moves of the technique a minimum of 19 times a night that equals 1560 times they have done it
Multiply that by 2 + years that is well over 3100 times they have done the opening 2 moves with some variations after.

Now if a person can not recognize the opening moves and say “hey that’s tech #1” after that many repetitions., what are they in class for?

I make sure to tell them each and every class this is a middle block followed by a elbow break so why do they not see it?
Is this a case of a student just going through the motions and not careing what they do in class?
Sorry I am going off topic but it frustrates the hell out me

 

[DArnold]

Let me explain a little the reason for this thread and my frustration:

If a student comes to class a minimum of 3 times a week all year that is 156 times
Multiply that by doing the same two opening moves of the technique a minimum of 19 times a night that equals 1560 times they have done it
Multiply that by 2 + years that is well over 3100 times they have done the opening 2 moves with some variations after.

Now if a person can not recognize the opening moves and say “hey that’s tech #1” after that many repetitions., what are they in class for?

I make sure to tell them each and every class this is a middle block followed by a elbow break so why do they not see it?
Is this a case of a student just going through the motions and not careing what they do in class?
Sorry I am going off topic but it frustrates the hell out me

Some grey areas come up in our discussion that would be helpful for clarification.

You explain and teach the same move every class year round?

 

[tshadowchaser]

yep

Basicly I teach and go over a varriation of the arm bar/break that begins with the first two moves discribed in the first post in this thread. It is one of the basics that I want each student to know and do without thinking so we go over it each night with few exceptions.
it is also the move that had my 2 plus year students confused in the form I was teaching them


yes I teach more than that LOL

 

[tshadowchaser]

Maybe I should have said that we have a certian number of self defence we go over each and every night in addition to the rest of class. The first two moves of the arm bar/break are one of the ones gone over each and every night

 

[Brian King]

I see frustrations and dealing with them as a learning experience, a chance to understand my own self, my motivations and my ego better. That feeling you get when a student improves or makes a leap in understanding giving you a shot of feel good that you are accomplishing something and making a difference is very powerful, like a narcotic. It becomes very easy to feel that joy as your student’s progress and to internalize it, to make it a part of your self-esteem. That feeling has the other side of the coin as well. When students are not getting it, when they are having trouble seeing things and understanding, then that narcotic can bring you to a low place, second guessing yourself and feeling like a failure. This feeling of accomplishment at your students’ successes, the feeling of frustration at their failures is a trap that should be avoided in my opinion. Our own perceptions of success or failures, our frustrations and our gratification should not be necessarily too tied up in the success or failures of our students (or others that matter to us). The work is theirs. The adversity that they have to overcome is also theirs. The rewards that they gain from training are also theirs.

When I start to feel either frustrated or gratification I remember what my teacher Vladimir Vasiliev once said. His talk about students and how they were heroes changed my perspective. We all know many people who say that they would like to learn martial arts, many even in action professions, spending years wishing to learn but for whatever reason never actually walking thru the door and onto the floor to learn. We know others that keep coming even as they sweat and bruise and seem to be stuck in mediocrity, we know others that have never been in a fight in their life and the thought of violence is so foreign to them that they have trouble even making a fist let alone dotting somebody’s eye with the fist, we know people that have to make sacrifices to attend training. All these people are heroes as they have made that step through the door. Even if they only attend class one day and then quit, they are still heroes for at least getting up and into the school that one day.

Our students have their battles and we have to let them face their adversities, as that is the only way that they will grow. The harder the adversity faced the deeper the growth and reward earned, even if the adversity is never conquered. We have to remember that they walked though the door and are heroes.

With their success of walking in the door, we can now help them by giving them tools and hints that will let the questions come to the front of their minds, let them explore those questions and to come up with their own answers. When they can come up with the questions and the answers on their own then they are truly learning.

As instructors all we can do is provide opportunities for the students to learn. The actual learning is up to them. We can strive to provide each student the opportunity that they need to learn and our depth as instructors will help us decipher what they need to learn and the way that they might best learn, but no matter what, the learning and the rate of learning is up to the student. One day the light will go on for them, the particular battle that they have been facing will have been faced and they will be stronger and more prepared to face the next and the next.

Training techniques is not something that I have to teach seeing as I teach Systema but I am of the opinion that if the students are having a hard time with a technique or a drill then a step back might be called for. The technique or drill should be broken down to even more and more basics until the students understand it from many different angles and views, then after breaking it down and having it better understood you then put it back together adding more and more to it until the students again show confusion then break it down again until they understand and repeat as necessary. This works for drills and I would imagine that it would work for techniques and concepts as well.

Often when people are learning something new it makes older skills uncomfortable and clumsy. I think it has to do with how the brain makes new paths for the neurons to fire and sometimes crosses and maybe shorts older pathways. This is why I like to break things back down to reinforce the older learning and connect it to the newer skills

Anyway works for me your mileage may vary

Brian King