Oily Dragon
Senior Master
Remember why it's called "kara" te and not "Tang" te:
Lack of respect. And not by Okinawa!
Hybrid Martial Arts or just scammers ?
- Thread starter Old Happy Tiger
- Start date
Lack of respect. And not by Okinawa!
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Thanks for the note, and welcome to MT. Couple of things stood out, that I think are pretty glaring if you focus on performance.
I broke this sentence up in the middle to highlight that you don't have to be an expert in something in order to evaluate that thing. This is a myth that gets tossed around here all the time, and it's complete bunk. In the real world (aka, everything else in the world except martial arts), people competently evaluate the quality of things all the time. Computers, cars, services, systems, you name it. All the time. You don't have to understand how a chip is made in order to evaluate it's performance.
You just have to be able to evaluate how it performs. Step 1 is to figure out what performance looks like... what are you trying to do? Learn Karate? Well, that's easy. Become an expert in kata? Okay... that's clear, too. Learn to fight? No problem. But you have to go to a school that does those things to learn those things. You can't learn to fight without fighting any more than you can learn kata without doing kata.
Point is, figure out what your benchmarks and evaluative criteria are and then apply that criteria to the system. We do that intuitively all the time.
See above. If you are in a system that you don't completely understand, but then add something to it that gets you closer to your goals, what you added isn't garbage. The trick is to know what you're trying to do, and benchmark your own skill level and success against your training. Is your training helping you perform better or not? If not... well, there is that old canard about the definition of insanity, right?
MMA is a great example. The goal is clear... to win fights. So, if they pick up a little of this and a little of that and it helps them win fights, it's value added. If not, it's garbage. Neither of those is dependent on being an expert in that system.... though the same thing applies. If being an expert in a system helps them win fights, it's good. If it does not, it's garbage. And you can often evaluate that without ever trying that new activity (though it's good to keep an open mind).
The presumption here is that the reward for diligence and patience is competence. So, at what point would someone have enough information to conclude that they aren't the issue?
I broke this sentence up in the middle to highlight that you don't have to be an expert in something in order to evaluate that thing. This is a myth that gets tossed around here all the time, and it's complete bunk. In the real world (aka, everything else in the world except martial arts), people competently evaluate the quality of things all the time. Computers, cars, services, systems, you name it. All the time. You don't have to understand how a chip is made in order to evaluate it's performance.
You just have to be able to evaluate how it performs. Step 1 is to figure out what performance looks like... what are you trying to do? Learn Karate? Well, that's easy. Become an expert in kata? Okay... that's clear, too. Learn to fight? No problem. But you have to go to a school that does those things to learn those things. You can't learn to fight without fighting any more than you can learn kata without doing kata.
Point is, figure out what your benchmarks and evaluative criteria are and then apply that criteria to the system. We do that intuitively all the time.
See above. If you are in a system that you don't completely understand, but then add something to it that gets you closer to your goals, what you added isn't garbage. The trick is to know what you're trying to do, and benchmark your own skill level and success against your training. Is your training helping you perform better or not? If not... well, there is that old canard about the definition of insanity, right?
MMA is a great example. The goal is clear... to win fights. So, if they pick up a little of this and a little of that and it helps them win fights, it's value added. If not, it's garbage. Neither of those is dependent on being an expert in that system.... though the same thing applies. If being an expert in a system helps them win fights, it's good. If it does not, it's garbage. And you can often evaluate that without ever trying that new activity (though it's good to keep an open mind).
Really? Are you an expert in Olympic Power Lifting, gymnastics, or long distance running? If not, based on the first part of your post, how can you possibly know? Don't get me wrong. You are doing exactly what I was saying above.... what we all do all the time, intuitively. And there is no difference in what you did here and someone in MMA saying, "yeah, that martial art system or school isn't going to help me."
Steve
Mostly Harmless
LOL. A schmuck?I got called a "Schmuck" in the latest Wing Chun Centerline thread the other day, because somebody claimed that Tibetan White Crane, Hop Gar, and Lama Pai were all different names for the same art.
They're not the same art, there's a whole spider's web there. If you can't see it, maybe it's a matter of more training? I don't know.
:extract_focal()/https%3A%2F%2Fpocket-syndicated-images.s3.amazonaws.com%2Farticles%2F5714%2F1600695403_Spider_01.jpg)
The Thoughts of a Spiderweb
Spiders appear to offload cognitive tasks to their webs, making them one of a number of species with a mind that isn’t fully confined within the head.getpocket.com
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Agreed. In my experience, the Okinawans are just pragmatic and use whatever word will get across their meaning the best. My primary art is Goju-ryu. We fully acknowledge it is an art created by an Okinawan (Miyagi) who learned from another Okinawan (Higashionna) who studied a Chinese art(s) in Fujian, China. Trade and other ties between Okinawa and China was strong in the past and this is reflected also in the Okinawan fighting arts.
<Shrugs> I don't have an cultural bias in my MA. First I am an American. Secondly, I also study aikido at a high level and that is quintessial Nippon. And I ran a TKD school for years. LOL
Oily Dragon
Senior Master
I think it was a phallic reference. I can't be sure.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
You tricked me into reading that thread. I should have known better.
Same.
Grandmaster Yue men quan
Orange Belt
How we did it in the old days ask the teacher to fight if he pretty competently kicks your ***. He might have something to teach. Then ask how much classes are. Just because you haven't heard of it or it's different from what you see as normal doesn't mean it might not be better. Jeet kune do was once a brand new Martial art.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I like it. Out of curiosity, what do you mean when you say "old days?"
skribs
Grandmaster
So what is "a complete understanding"? Must you know all of the moves of your art? Who defines what all of those moves are? How well must you know all of those moves?
I'm a TKD guy. I can do 540 kicks. I can't do 720 kicks. Does that mean I shouldn't add anything from any other art until I can do a 720 kick?
Steve
Mostly Harmless
You can do a 540 kick? I’m impressed.
Yep. No personal innovation until you perfect a 1080° .... or at the very least a 900° rotational kick. Gotta achieve some basic standard of competence, right?
Now I'm trying to imagine what such a kick would even look like. I guess I should watch some figure skating clips of triple and quadruple jumps?
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
A few thoughts on "hybridization."
Karate is indeed a true hybrid art, being a melding of mostly southern Chinese fighting and native Okinawan fighting methods. Each transformed by the other into something recognizably distinct from its parents - its parts being now physically inseparable. This is akin to a "solution" or "alloy" in chemistry, where components are molecularly, or at least homogenously joined.
(Please forgive any inacuracies here as chemistry was my worst subject in school, but I hope you get my point.)
Now compare this with a "suspension" or a pine wooden plank strengthened with a strip of ash nailed along its length. Here, each component has not become an integral part of the other and can be easily separated. They are heterogenous. This description fits many so-called "hybrid" arts out there.
Merely taking a karate style and tossing in a few boxing or judo moves does not, to me, create a new style. It's just karate + some other stuff. They are "bundled" like car and home insurance, or phone and TV service. There's nothing wrong with doing so, it's just not a "new" product or invention, or art. Or see this as the difference between just shacking up together (fun physical bonding) to being truly married (lots of work and deep spiritual bonding.)
So, I would view a hybrid MA style thru similar lenses. Is it a collection of assorted techniques bundled together, or something inherently melded together in a unique way with its own identity?
Karate is indeed a true hybrid art, being a melding of mostly southern Chinese fighting and native Okinawan fighting methods. Each transformed by the other into something recognizably distinct from its parents - its parts being now physically inseparable. This is akin to a "solution" or "alloy" in chemistry, where components are molecularly, or at least homogenously joined.
(Please forgive any inacuracies here as chemistry was my worst subject in school, but I hope you get my point.)
Now compare this with a "suspension" or a pine wooden plank strengthened with a strip of ash nailed along its length. Here, each component has not become an integral part of the other and can be easily separated. They are heterogenous. This description fits many so-called "hybrid" arts out there.
Merely taking a karate style and tossing in a few boxing or judo moves does not, to me, create a new style. It's just karate + some other stuff. They are "bundled" like car and home insurance, or phone and TV service. There's nothing wrong with doing so, it's just not a "new" product or invention, or art. Or see this as the difference between just shacking up together (fun physical bonding) to being truly married (lots of work and deep spiritual bonding.)
So, I would view a hybrid MA style thru similar lenses. Is it a collection of assorted techniques bundled together, or something inherently melded together in a unique way with its own identity?
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Yep. No personal innovation until you perfect a 1080° .... or at the very least a 900° rotational kick. Gotta achieve some basic standard of competence, right?
Now I'm trying to imagine what such a kick would even look like. I guess I should watch some figure skating clips of triple and quadruple jumps?
AIKIKENJITSU
Green Belt
Relax. I have been practicing and teaching for fifty years "my version" of American Kenpo. There is nothing wrong with adding to what you all ready know. If say I compete at tournaments, then I would do the Kenpo forms exactly how I was taught. When it comes to self defense techniques, I add what I what to add, for the best self defense. Kenpo had no real joint locks because it was thought to slow you down. But in reality, I have found that it may help you against a huge foe. I'm 5'2" and if a 250 strong six foot guy grabbed my wrist in front and was shaking me like a rag doll where I couldn/t get a good kick at him, then I would employ a joint lock move and get him into a joint lock and be behind him for a strong shin strike to his groin from behind. Whatever you add, it must blend well with what you know and must be effective.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA
OP
OP
Old Happy Tiger
Orange Belt
Sifu, I'm going send you a PM directly.
When you post these things, it seems like it would be more honest if you mention that you were a brown belt and self-promoted to 10th Dan.
O'Malley
2nd Black Belt
Why would that not be honest nor ethical? Nobody today trains like the founder of aikido did anyway. What's more, some top ranked aikido teachers taught knee, elbow or even head strikes.
wolfeyes2323
Green Belt
Martial arts have a core, the rest is malleable.
Most Martial artist go through phases that
correspond to stages in life. For instance, Young people
like to test their skills, and earn/win accolades.
The sport aspect of a Martial art may be emphasized,
and this may be augmented for competition.
There are those only concerned with self defense,
this requires a different emphasis.
Then there are the traditionalists. (usually older ).
IMO it is all good as long as it is based on solid
basics and traditional forms.
Non-traditional forms , and competition forms may be
added, (its ok to have fun) but at the core of traditional training
are basics and traditional forms, most will
return to this, if they continue to practice throughout
their life. If you do not see this in a School , I would
go elsewhere.
jayoliver00
Black Belt
I get what you're saying. I was in a Wushu school to learn weapons and they had a class dabbling with BJJ.
I think by today's standards is that they're trying to pay the bills in order to stay open; so they will annoy some people who are purists while following with the times and adapting to MMA, in order to produce competitive fighters to keep the school exciting & relevant.
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