External vs internal martial arts

[oaktree]

I don't think the internet is the right place for this particular discussion -- it needs to be evaluated in depth, and in person.

You supply the shots I supply the girls I think you can train one external I'll train one internal and we will see which one mud wrestles the best.

 

[Danny T]

Internal is from the Taoist philosophies of China
External is from the Buddist philosophies originating in India.
The symbol for 'domestic' is 內 and also means Esoteric or of the inside group - Internal.
The symbol for 'foreign' is 外 which also signifies Exoteric or of the outside group - External.
Some martial arts express Taoist (that is, "domestic") philosophical principles.
Some martial arts express Buddhist principles.
Since Shaolin, like Buddhism, came from India, this makes Shaolin and Shaolin-derived arts as "foreign" arts.

Internal martial systems are generally those that were developed within China.
External martial systems are generally those that were developed or derived from outside of China.

 

[Xue Sheng]

There are multiple definitions of internal and external, take a look at the Epitaph of Wang Zhengnan and you will see it show up there, for the first time in China and it is more of a protest against the QIng (outsiders) that anything else. The Buddhist vs Taoist thing. It changed from there

 

[mograph]

Internal is from the Taoist philosophies of China
External is from the Buddist philosophies originating in India.

I'll buy that: internal or external to China.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'll buy that: internal or external to China.

It is pretty much how it started

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are multiple definitions of internal and external,

Agree! Such as:

- Buddhism stay at home, it's called "内家(Nei Jia) - internal". Taoist travel around, it's called "外家(Wai Jia) - external".
- Beginning MA person is called "外家(Wai Jia) - external". Advanced MA person is called "内家(Nei Jia) - internal".

For example, if you have

- computer science degree and you are a programmer, you will call yourself "内家(Nei Jia) - internal" programmer.
- mathematics degree or business degree and you are a programmer, you will call yourself "外家(Wai Jia) - external" programmer.

In other words, "external" is a term that you use to look down on somebody in order to feel superior yourself. It's not a friendly or polite term at all.

 

[Tez3]

In other words, "external" is a term that you use to look down on somebody in order to feel superior yourself. It's not a friendly or polite term at all.

That's the feeling I think we got from when the OP used it and why the posts after.
I knew an instructor who would when told what style someone was would only ever ask if they could fight, he never cared what style, how long they'd be training etc just whether they could fight!

 

[oftheherd1]

No worries, just the manner you phrased your sentence, i suppose. Anyway ask ahead what you don't understand, and i will respond tomorrow as it is really late now (2:20 am) and i need to go to sleep.

OK, first of all, there are many transliterations of the different oriental languages words for an 'inner force.' Chi, qi, ki, or my normal one, gi, are just a few of what I would say are the most common. That is why I asked what I did in my first sentence, and qualified it as I did.

Now my thoughts on what you call internal versus external. Neither you nor anyone else is required to agree, disagree, or even comment.

I believe what you are referring to as internal, is one aspect of gi. I think gi is attainable by anyone. In fact, many probably exercise some gi without realizing it. I think it is enhanced by breathing exercises and meditation. It is not mystical in the sense the word mystical is usually used, since as I said, I think anyone can attain the use of gi. I also think there is a faith factor; if you don't believe in it, you will probably never attain its use.

I believe that those who practice a martial art can become very proficient in that art without gi; a good athlete is just that, a good athlete who can use many martial art tools very well. But I also believe they would be better with gi. Since I believe that way, I would never discount a person who does not have gi, or believes that they don't. My art is Hapkido, we tend to move into an attack so we must be both fast and accurate. I used to tell students that they should not discount a martial artist who learns an art which employs blocking, punching and kicking. If that is all you train, you will probably be very good at it. All that to say I would never look down on someone who uses external (as you put it) methods to employ their martial art.

As I believe, gi allows one to focus power, apply unexpected strength, increase speed, and 'inner balance' (for lack of a better term). It allows one to remain calm no matter the external circumstances. It allow fluid movement. When I was practicing my art regularly, if you had put me in a stressful situation, I would automatically begin controlled breathing, without even realizing it. That would help in use of my gi.

As I said, I believe gi is not mystical nor magic. So unless you have learned how to attain and apply gi to a degree I haven't seen nor experienced before, you cannot pick up a strange implement (in your example, a sword) and automatically know all possible applications of that implement as a weapon against a previously unknown fighting-trained opponent. If you have truly achieved that, please enlighten all of us as to how you achieved that, so those of us who wish to do so, can also learn.

If what I have said so far sounds right to you, let me know. If not, then I have no further comments in this thread since we are too far apart in our beliefs.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Hence, when an internal martial artist engages a person who has not trained in the internal arts, the internal martial artist can exploit all the 'internal imbalance' of that person. That is why sometimes an internal martial artist can be seen taking down a person seemingly without any effort.

If there is a such thing as "internal imbalance", wrestlers and Judo guys would talk about it all the time. That's not the case. Why?

 

[Ironbear24]

Six pages and I still don't know what the hell you mean by "internal" art.

 

[Tez3]

Six pages and I still don't know what the hell you mean by "internal" art.

I know! The reason I clicked on to this when I saw it on the 'new posts' list is because I thought I'd learn about something. If it can't be explained in words but only demonstrated I'm fine with that, I'm fine with whatever the experienced practitioners say, it's their art after and I'm just a nosy martial artist but being told to 'Google it' just seemed somewhat odd.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Neijia 内家; Nèi jiā (short description)

Waijia 外家; Wài jiā

Take it for what it is worth

 

[mograph]

Neijia 内家; Nèi jiā (short description)

Waijia 外家; Wài jiā

Take it for what it is worth

Where were you on page one, dude?

... but then we wouldn't have gotten to scotch and mud wrestling. Carry on!

 

[Ironbear24]

I know! The reason I clicked on to this when I saw it on the 'new posts' list is because I thought I'd learn about something. If it can't be explained in words but only demonstrated I'm fine with that, I'm fine with whatever the experienced practitioners say, it's their art after and I'm just a nosy martial artist but being told to 'Google it' just seemed somewhat odd.

Especially being told to "go google it" by a person who is apparently knowledgeable on the subject. I really don't understand why anyone would make a thread about something, then act appalled when people ask them questions about said thread.

 

[Zeny]

OK, first of all, there are many transliterations of the different oriental languages words for an 'inner force.' Chi, qi, ki, or my normal one, gi, are just a few of what I would say are the most common. That is why I asked what I did in my first sentence, and qualified it as I did.

Now my thoughts on what you call internal versus external. Neither you nor anyone else is required to agree, disagree, or even comment.

I believe what you are referring to as internal, is one aspect of gi. I think gi is attainable by anyone. In fact, many probably exercise some gi without realizing it. I think it is enhanced by breathing exercises and meditation. It is not mystical in the sense the word mystical is usually used, since as I said, I think anyone can attain the use of gi. I also think there is a faith factor; if you don't believe in it, you will probably never attain its use.

I believe that those who practice a martial art can become very proficient in that art without gi; a good athlete is just that, a good athlete who can use many martial art tools very well. But I also believe they would be better with gi. Since I believe that way, I would never discount a person who does not have gi, or believes that they don't. My art is Hapkido, we tend to move into an attack so we must be both fast and accurate. I used to tell students that they should not discount a martial artist who learns an art which employs blocking, punching and kicking. If that is all you train, you will probably be very good at it. All that to say I would never look down on someone who uses external (as you put it) methods to employ their martial art.

As I believe, gi allows one to focus power, apply unexpected strength, increase speed, and 'inner balance' (for lack of a better term). It allows one to remain calm no matter the external circumstances. It allow fluid movement. When I was practicing my art regularly, if you had put me in a stressful situation, I would automatically begin controlled breathing, without even realizing it. That would help in use of my gi.

As I said, I believe gi is not mystical nor magic. So unless you have learned how to attain and apply gi to a degree I haven't seen nor experienced before, you cannot pick up a strange implement (in your example, a sword) and automatically know all possible applications of that implement as a weapon against a previously unknown fighting-trained opponent. If you have truly achieved that, please enlighten all of us as to how you achieved that, so those of us who wish to do so, can also learn.

If what I have said so far sounds right to you, let me know. If not, then I have no further comments in this thread since we are too far apart in our beliefs.

Very good post, thank you. I’m sorry that we got off the wrong foot. If you have posted this from the start I would have given you a comprehensive reply, like what I’m doing now.

I also believe in chi, and I also believe that practising chi is absolutely essential. However, most of the time I refrain from expressing my views on it on this forum because chi cannot be measured, seen, smelt or heard, so it would be difficult to discuss chi with someone who has never felt it or who believes it does not exist. I may also be accused of spreading “lies” or “untruths” about martial arts or taijiquan in particular, if not by XS (he believes in chi), then by other people.

Practising chi is beneficial to every martial artist, whether external or internal or hybrid. There are people who practise it to acquire a skill to withstand bladed objects (heard it, but never seen it) and there are also people who practise it to attain better health (know of it, but I never practise it that way).

I started training chi only recently, when I realised that I cannot ignore it any longer. Why? Because I realised that how I focus, direct, or spread my chi, affects my body in quite a material way as to make quite a big difference in my performance during push hands practice. If i focus my chi completely in my dan tian, my body becomes especially stable (like a wall), but mobility is greatly affected. If i focus my chi on one hand, that hand becomes especially strong, but sluggish and heavy and my movement with that hand is easily detected by the opponent. However, if I spread my chi evenly throughout my body (one aspect of “internal” balance, so to speak), my movements become light, nimble and fast, and my response and reflex times are highly improved. It has come to a point where I must consciously make sure this spreading of chi is done even before first skin to skin contact with my push hands partner.

Anyway, just my 2 cents on chi. I quite dislike discussing it on an internet forum, for the reasons I have stated above. But the heaviness and lightness of parts of the body caused by the difference in concentration of chi can be easily demonstrated in person. The difference in your view and my view is that, as you said you believe internal is one aspect of chi, but I believe chi is one aspect of internal.

Agree! Such as:

- Buddhism stay at home, it's called "内家(Nei Jia) - internal". Taoist travel around, it's called "外家(Wai Jia) - external".
- Beginning MA person is called "外家(Wai Jia) - external". Advanced MA person is called "内家(Nei Jia) - internal".

For example, if you have

- computer science degree and you are a programmer, you will call yourself "内家(Nei Jia) - internal" programmer.
- mathematics degree or business degree and you are a programmer, you will call yourself "外家(Wai Jia) - external" programmer.

In other words, "external" is a term that you use to look down on somebody in order to feel superior yourself. It's not a friendly or polite term at all.

For the avoidance of doubt, I never advanced the superiority of either internal over external or external over internal. I also don’t believe my posts reflect such view. My view is simply that:

1) when training, we need to know whether our training falls into external or internal, so that we can maximise the benefits of our training. For example, in my response to Bill’s post above, I said his empty mind training falls into “internal”, but if i’m an external martial artist, I would personally prefer to train the external methods rather than mix internal into it. However, this is simply my personal preference, because like I said, I have no knowledge of and cannot comment whether such “cross training” is more beneficial than simply specialising in either external or internal. Bill’s post enlightened me and made me realise I may not be correct in my approach. It may well be that what works for one person may not work for another.

2) if we know how the externalists and the internalists work, this will lead to a better understanding on how to counter them

3) knowing external and internal also leads to a better understanding of our own body and how it acquires skills, so we can practise in a manner that leads to maximum benefit per minute spent

 

[Zeny]

I know! The reason I clicked on to this when I saw it on the 'new posts' list is because I thought I'd learn about something. If it can't be explained in words but only demonstrated I'm fine with that, I'm fine with whatever the experienced practitioners say, it's their art after and I'm just a nosy martial artist but being told to 'Google it' just seemed somewhat odd.

That sounds to me like a veiled snipe, are you trying to provoke me to start again? I would be more than happy to, considering what I think of you, but we have been asked to stop. At least Xue Sheng posts informative things in between his criticisms of me, but your posts are pure rubbish.

 

[Zeny]

Especially being told to "go google it" by a person who is apparently knowledgeable on the subject. I really don't understand why anyone would make a thread about something, then act appalled when people ask them questions about said thread.

I thought I have made clear that my rudeness by that google comment was not intentional. Why do you keep harping on it? Let’s put this to rest once and for all:

Oftheherd, I’m sorry by that google comment, I did not realise I was rude and the rudeness was not intentional.

 

[Zeny]

Six pages and I still don't know what the hell you mean by "internal" art.

I don’t really know how to make myself more clear. But if you ask specific questions I can try answer them. In any event, there are many people who disagree with me, and I thought I should point that out.

 

[Zeny]

If there is a such thing as "internal imbalance", wrestlers and Judo guys would talk about it all the time. That's not the case. Why?

That’s a very good point. I have no clue, maybe I really am delusional.

 

[oftheherd1]

I thought I have made clear that my rudeness by that google comment was not intentional. Why do you keep harping on it? Let’s put this to rest once and for all:

Oftheherd, I’m sorry by that google comment, I did not realise I was rude and the rudeness was not intentional.

Thanks for the apology. But as it turns out, I have a rather thick skin. And sometimes I know can get in a hurry and not express myself quite how I intend.

Whether gi is an aspect of internal or internal is an aspect of gi may be debated, but if one's belief in gi or internal is strong, and especially if experienced, I think it may not be significant. Or may be very significant, depending on a particular person's belief and ability to use it. Just what I think.

I personally don't mind discussing gi as long as people are respectful. The problem is that like many things, one may believe it or not, and that belief may have to depend on what one feels within oneself, not scientific proofs. For that reason, it is hard to establish a frame of reference, and to explain something that may be experienced but difficult to describe.

To those who have been told there is no such thing as gi, and accepted that as truth, what I have said probably sounds like gobbledygook, or worse. That is their right, as is mine to believe in it. I don't think them less of a person. Of course if people become disrespectful, or speak derisively, I will probably just withdraw from the discussion.

FYI, you might want to consider if your rising to what you perceive as personal (or even real challenges) will really help you explain your beliefs, or fuel a monkey dance. There are indeed people here who would enjoy a virtual monkey dance. I only say that because it is something I have to remind myself of often.

Again, thanks for explaining yourself further.