Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
None. We talked about it before & I forgot. Just trying to get an idea of where you're coming from, that's all. The Booj is varied.
Human Weapon : Ninjutsu Episode featuring Budo Taijutsu!
- Thread starter Brian R. VanCise
- Start date
None. We talked about it before & I forgot. Just trying to get an idea of where you're coming from, that's all. The Booj is varied.
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
I watched the YouTube vid, it looked to me that Jason had a VERY unstable back mount and right when he was going to stab Doug in the back, Doug bucked, Jason lost his balance, and the stab went past him, catching on his gi under the right armpit. Then, in his attempt to regain his balance, he lost the weapon.
Doug never got hit, & if he did, a cut the the lat isn't very lethal.
My Pentjak Silat teacher was rather impressed by this episode, he liked the Bujinkan showing. He echoed a point made about sparring vs reality: If these were real weapons, this episode would have been five minutes shorter & the History Channel would be looking for two new employees.
Seattletcj
Green Belt
I think Doug did an exceptional job.
Having said that, he was obviously stabbed/cut in the throat/face on the ground. Watch it again.
I mean, why did they stop it there if it wasnt good enough?
Are we really gonna get to the point here where we debate the exact depth of the cut in millimeters in order to feel more secure?
Lets be mature losers and good sports about this.
I dont think anyone has commented on Dougs outstanding muto dori.
Moving in on an armed swordsman and successfully disarming him is extremly admirable.
Check it out.
Everyone is so concerned with the sweep they missed the muto dori.
BTW Jasons sweep was technically excellent.
I guess the myth that sparring creates sloppy and incorrect technique can finally be put to rest for BJK guys.
Having said that, he was obviously stabbed/cut in the throat/face on the ground. Watch it again.
I mean, why did they stop it there if it wasnt good enough?
Are we really gonna get to the point here where we debate the exact depth of the cut in millimeters in order to feel more secure?
Lets be mature losers and good sports about this.
I dont think anyone has commented on Dougs outstanding muto dori.
Moving in on an armed swordsman and successfully disarming him is extremly admirable.
Check it out.
Everyone is so concerned with the sweep they missed the muto dori.
BTW Jasons sweep was technically excellent.
I guess the myth that sparring creates sloppy and incorrect technique can finally be put to rest for BJK guys.
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Sorry, but I have to go with Doc on this. I just watched it a few more times, and you can't even see Dougs head when Jason does the stab. I thought contact had to be made in order for there to be a point? Was Jason in fact given a point for that supposed shot?
And you're right...nobody is commenting on anything else. Why? Because some people are too busy bashing the art, too busy talking about BJJ, etc. So..that being said, we are in agreement on at least that much.
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Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
No he wasn't "stabbed/cut in the throat/face". You obviously don't know the definition of "obvious".
Seattletcj
Green Belt
I didnt/dont see anyone involved then or now contesting the shot.
Doug has not commented on it. Yost has not commented on it.
It happened at Hombu, in front of a dozen Bujinkan guys.
Why then should we ASSUME anything other then what you can see?
This is stupid.
I'll concede ...it may only have been a shallow cut to the throat with a katana.
LOL
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
There is a YouTube vid on this thread. Pls post the time of this illusory stabbing.
Ronnin
Blue Belt
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I think this argument has gotten a bit elementry. Everyone IS judging by millimeters. And "a cut to the lat isn't very lethal"????? hahahahahaha
where do you come from? i hate papercuts !! I think Jason did well (i am speaking only with the H2H) because, lets face it, MMA guys train like they fight, everyday, EVERYDAY. everyday they go to their dojo, they end the day with a "fight", a real fight. next time everyone is at thier dojo's, look around, pay attention to what your whole training day has consisted of. a lot of standing around listening, a lot of 1/4 speed technique, then very few 1/2 speed techniques. and even then your uke is not acting like a real combatent. these MMA guys FIGHT everyday they go in. it's no wonder. were the real ninjas of old good, without a doubt, and the samurai, shaolin, phillipinos, all were extremely deadly because they HAD to use it for real, and they did, everyday !!!!
we go 2,3, mabe 4 times a week, for the single guys. again it's no wonder.
where do you come from? i hate papercuts !! I think Jason did well (i am speaking only with the H2H) because, lets face it, MMA guys train like they fight, everyday, EVERYDAY. everyday they go to their dojo, they end the day with a "fight", a real fight. next time everyone is at thier dojo's, look around, pay attention to what your whole training day has consisted of. a lot of standing around listening, a lot of 1/4 speed technique, then very few 1/2 speed techniques. and even then your uke is not acting like a real combatent. these MMA guys FIGHT everyday they go in. it's no wonder. were the real ninjas of old good, without a doubt, and the samurai, shaolin, phillipinos, all were extremely deadly because they HAD to use it for real, and they did, everyday !!!!
we go 2,3, mabe 4 times a week, for the single guys. again it's no wonder.
This feels like grasping at straws. If you let someone get your back with a sword in their hands you've had a bad day, even if by luck you don't get hit. As to non-lethal sword cuts...well, every sword cut is yet another sign that you're not having a good day. Losing a lat may be "just a flesh wound" as the Black Knight would say but it's sure going to lower your odds of winning.
Wehn I saw him having the back and stabbing I thought he was being a little careful for fear of catching his face with the tip and really hurting somebody. I'm going to award him a cut there.
I didn't think either side had anything to be embarrassed about.
LuzRD
Black Belt
ok i just watched the scene in question several times, and the camera did not get a good angle on the strike. in all "likelihood" though Jason earned that point IMO.
It seems to me that Doug was doing a good job getting out from under Jason when Jason grabbed the "weapon". then Jason seemed to go out of his way to strike at dougs face/head when Dougs back wouldve been an easier and less questionable strike.
The only question i have about this particular scene is "how would it have gone if Jason couldnt have reached the sword?"
while Jason was mounted on Doug back, Doug's head was under his shoulder (while rolling out from under Jason). you can tell where Dougs head should be at this point, and thats where Jasons strike seems to go. however since our view of Jasons strike was blocked by Dougs shoulder we cant know for certain where it landed or how effective it wouldve been.
It seems to me that Doug was doing a good job getting out from under Jason when Jason grabbed the "weapon". then Jason seemed to go out of his way to strike at dougs face/head when Dougs back wouldve been an easier and less questionable strike.
The only question i have about this particular scene is "how would it have gone if Jason couldnt have reached the sword?"
while Jason was mounted on Doug back, Doug's head was under his shoulder (while rolling out from under Jason). you can tell where Dougs head should be at this point, and thats where Jasons strike seems to go. however since our view of Jasons strike was blocked by Dougs shoulder we cant know for certain where it landed or how effective it wouldve been.
newtothe dark
Purple Belt
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This does seem like we are looking for little details to 'save face' it was what it was a good fight.
Thanks Dale! I caught that on the show, too. Definitely worth repeating!
Absolutely! I stepped through it before ripping the tag session and it appears to have missed (close but no cigar). I could probably do some still captures if I can get around to it. Gotta train tonight, so another time!
LuzRD
Black Belt
i have to disagree with you guys.
it looks to me like Jason was going for Dougs head/face. there is a moment just before Doug bucks Jason off that you can see Jason strikes down with the sword and it is an intentional strike, granted it was rushed and may have been "close enough" due to the amount of time he had so not to put Dougs eye out or otherwise injure him.
if i had to guess (which i suppose were all doing :wavey . judging by the location of Dougs head, and the angle of the sword when Jason struck. id say that the tip of the sword would have been on the mat just in front of Dougs jaw (or on Dougs hand which was also in that same area)
of course with that one camera angle noone can tell with any certainty what exactly happened unless they were there. i say we leave it at Doug had some fun training (like doug said in his blog) to see what would happen AFTER dominating the match to that point
it looks to me like Jason was going for Dougs head/face. there is a moment just before Doug bucks Jason off that you can see Jason strikes down with the sword and it is an intentional strike, granted it was rushed and may have been "close enough" due to the amount of time he had so not to put Dougs eye out or otherwise injure him.
if i had to guess (which i suppose were all doing :wavey
. judging by the location of Dougs head, and the angle of the sword when Jason struck. id say that the tip of the sword would have been on the mat just in front of Dougs jaw (or on Dougs hand which was also in that same area)of course with that one camera angle noone can tell with any certainty what exactly happened unless they were there. i say we leave it at Doug had some fun training (like doug said in his blog) to see what would happen AFTER dominating the match to that point
OP
- Thread Starter
- #155
This is a little point in the overall scheme of the show. Bruce lost though it was close and Bill Duff has great athletic atributes. Doug was excellent with the sword and made a poor judgement call in a competition to go in and grapple when he was clearly dominating. As to Jason being on his back well...... we will just never know how that strike played out but I am comfortable enough in giving Jason that point.
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
Yes, because a millimeter is still a miss. IF YOU CAN SEE IT, POST A TIME FROM THE VIDEO!!! If you have a problem with that, leave the conversation. & if YOU actually think that a little cut to the latissimus dorsi IS lethal, or even crippling, you need to get out more & study some anatomy.
*hahahahaahahahaha*
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
I agree, they both showed well, but DOUG WAS NOT STABBED. He was in a bad spot, but would have received not much more than a scratch on the lat, if that. IF ANYONE ACTUALLY SEES A SUCCESSFUL STRIKE WHILE JASON HAS THE REAR MOUNT, POST A TIME FROM THE YOUTUBE VIDEO OR DROP IT. We have video of the match, in case anyone forgot. Use it, or drop it.
re: this whole "who really won" thing...
What's it matter?
The people who were there, on the scene and at the time, gave Jason the match. He won THAT game. Which was admittedly invented ON THE SPOT to meet the demands of the producers of the tv show...
What would have happened in the real world? Don't know. Can't tell from that game, either. It did give the two Bujinkan guys a chance to play, without scripts. I think they accounted themselves well; so did the hosts of the show.
Why the heck is anyone arguing over this? Is it that hard to face the possibility that, under a very unusual situation, things didn't go ideally? It's possible that I could visit Japan tomorrow, walk into the Bujinkan Hombu dojo, and slug Hatsumi. Does that mean that I'm better than he is? Or does it just mean that at one given moment, under one set of circumstances, I could hit him? And, if I don't hit him... does that mean he's better -- or does it mean my approach didn't work? And, for the record, I do believe Hatsumi is much more skilled than I am!
What's it matter?
The people who were there, on the scene and at the time, gave Jason the match. He won THAT game. Which was admittedly invented ON THE SPOT to meet the demands of the producers of the tv show...
What would have happened in the real world? Don't know. Can't tell from that game, either. It did give the two Bujinkan guys a chance to play, without scripts. I think they accounted themselves well; so did the hosts of the show.
Why the heck is anyone arguing over this? Is it that hard to face the possibility that, under a very unusual situation, things didn't go ideally? It's possible that I could visit Japan tomorrow, walk into the Bujinkan Hombu dojo, and slug Hatsumi. Does that mean that I'm better than he is? Or does it just mean that at one given moment, under one set of circumstances, I could hit him? And, if I don't hit him... does that mean he's better -- or does it mean my approach didn't work? And, for the record, I do believe Hatsumi is much more skilled than I am!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #159
Hey Jks9199 actually Bill won his match against Bruce while Jason was easily defeated by Doug in his match. Truth be told though this whole thing is getting old!!!!!!
As to the gist of your post you are right on!!!
Yup, this is how it looked to me as well. So much for video being the deciding factor eh. LOL!
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