Human Weapon : Ninjutsu Episode featuring Budo Taijutsu!

[Cruentus]

what I wonder about is Bill "fought" against, I can't recall his name, a 13th Dan, and Bill won! This happens through out the shows. How can this be? I know that it's not real combat and all, so everyone save that excuse for the next MMA thread, it's practice, there's no real threat of injury or death, so the 13th Dan should have taken Bill to school. I don't see how one week of training, Bill could stand in the same room with a 13th Dan. Does anyone else feel this way or is it just me?

How can this be?

It is very simple, and I will try to explain without offending anyones nerdy obsessions or unrealistic expectations (not saying that you have any, but I run into them with martial artists in general a lot).

The **** that we practice, and I am referring to combat arts, is not rocket science. When it comes down to application, the actual "fighting" part is very simple, and boils down to very few usable techniques, tactics, and strategies. There is no 13th Dan or 15th Dan or ANY credential in any martial art that will make a person impervious to defeat of a fight or sporting contest related to fighting. And the fact is, if you take a couple of athletic guys who have been training in fighting arts and teach them the few things that will work, they can hold themselves up against the best from any art and be a formidable opponent. That is a fact, and that can be a real ***** for some of us who train for years and years; but it is still a fact. We are all human, and what works in fights (or fighting contests) is often very simple.

That said, the 13th and 15th Dan are very talented martial artists; and I have no doubts that they probably forget more Budo Taijutsu every day then Bill or Jason will ever learn in their lives. But, that doesn't make them invincible. And for that, it should be expected that talented athletes with some training in the right stuff would make formidable opponents for them.

At the end of the day, we are all still human beings.

 

[Cruentus]

"Bruce lost a very close match against Bill", see that's the thing.there's no way he should've lost.Take Bill's 10 days against Bruces 15 years ? Maybe it's time to entertain the idea that there are no such things as masters anymore, learn a few good moves, and it's anybodys game.

Just wanted to recap: I would say that the masters are the ones that master the few "good moves" (tactics and techniques), and can seperate those from the majority of the crap that doesn't work out there. But regardless, I would say that it is ALWAYS anybody's game.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Actually we can know for certain, through the magic of slow-motion replay.

When I first watched it, it looked to me like Jason tried a cut from which Doug was continually moving away. But I now have a copy of the show downloaded directly from the initial broadcast and have looked at it a number of times in slow-mo. . .And I was wrong about what I thought I saw.

Jason wasn't trying to cut, it was a reverse-grip stab. Which missed. It didn't even bounce off Doug on the way to the floor, it simply missed completely.

That's what I thought. Thanks, Dale.

 

[MJS]

Actually we can know for certain, through the magic of slow-motion replay.

When I first watched it, it looked to me like Jason tried a cut from which Doug was continually moving away. But I now have a copy of the show downloaded directly from the initial broadcast and have looked at it a number of times in slow-mo. . .And I was wrong about what I thought I saw.

Jason wasn't trying to cut, it was a reverse-grip stab. Which missed. It didn't even bounce off Doug on the way to the floor, it simply missed completely.

Based solely on what survived the editing process and was actually broadcast, I'd have to call the Jason/Doug match a clear "win" for Doug with weapons, and a draw -- with Doug being thrown, but then escaping without being stabbed or pinned -- on the hand-to-hand part.

Likewise, I was thinking the same thing. Thank you.

How can this be?

It is very simple, and I will try to explain without offending anyones nerdy obsessions or unrealistic expectations (not saying that you have any, but I run into them with martial artists in general a lot).

The **** that we practice, and I am referring to combat arts, is not rocket science. When it comes down to application, the actual "fighting" part is very simple, and boils down to very few usable techniques, tactics, and strategies. There is no 13th Dan or 15th Dan or ANY credential in any martial art that will make a person impervious to defeat of a fight or sporting contest related to fighting. And the fact is, if you take a couple of athletic guys who have been training in fighting arts and teach them the few things that will work, they can hold themselves up against the best from any art and be a formidable opponent. That is a fact, and that can be a real ***** for some of us who train for years and years; but it is still a fact. We are all human, and what works in fights (or fighting contests) is often very simple.

That said, the 13th and 15th Dan are very talented martial artists; and I have no doubts that they probably forget more Budo Taijutsu every day then Bill or Jason will ever learn in their lives. But, that doesn't make them invincible. And for that, it should be expected that talented athletes with some training in the right stuff would make formidable opponents for them.

At the end of the day, we are all still human beings.

2 thumbs up for this post!! I couldn't agree more. I've said the same thing and it amazes me how so many people seem to forget that martial art training, does not come with a blue shirt with a big red S on the front.

Mike

 

[Dale Seago]

. . .it amazes me how so many people seem to forget that martial art training, does not come with a blue shirt with a big red S on the front.

That is so true!!

 

[blood shadow]

I think bill did a way better job than jason.

 

[Obi Wan Shinobi]

Well all I know is that when watched that show again it started to make me wonder about all those traditional weapons. The Hombu looked alot like a museum of ancient Japanese weapons. But my point is that in the 21st century what is the point in learning such weapons today. I mean with probably the exception of the Bo, Jo, hanbo, tanto, kusarifundo, and maybe shuriken, what is the benefit of learning the bisento, the kusarigama, kyoketsushoge etc. etc. If you go walking anywhere carrying those weapons you're sure to get the attention of your friendly local law enforcement. Those were the weapons of choice of the Ninja and Samurai of Feudal Japan. I'm sure they were state of the art for their era. Today pepper spray and keyrings replaces metsubishi powder, handguns and tasers replace the sword, and folding knives are just good to have. I've been in the Bujinkan for a short period of time (going on 4 years) but as a cop I fail to see the benefit of training in ancient weapons. I only say this because the challenge was fighting with ancient weapons and I don't see that as practical in today's era. Any thoughts?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well all I know is that when watched that show again it started to make me wonder about all those traditional weapons. The Hombu looked alot like a museum of ancient Japanese weapons. But my point is that in the 21st century what is the point in learning such weapons today. I mean with probably the exception of the Bo, Jo, hanbo, tanto, kusarifundo, and maybe shuriken, what is the benefit of learning the bisento, the kusarigama, kyoketsushoge etc. etc. If you go walking anywhere carrying those weapons you're sure to get the attention of your friendly local law enforcement. Those were the weapons of choice of the Ninja and Samurai of Feudal Japan. I'm sure they were state of the art for their era. Today pepper spray and keyrings replaces metsubishi powder, handguns and tasers replace the sword, and folding knives are just good to have. I've been in the Bujinkan for a short period of time (going on 4 years) but as a cop I fail to see the benefit of training in ancient weapons. I only say this because the challenge was fighting with ancient weapons and I don't see that as practical in today's era. Any thoughts?

I do not practice the art in question, but I do train with weapons of all types, and yes I do have some thoughts.

1) Training for nothing more than the pleasure of the movement alone is a worth while endeavor.

2) Training to preserve and understand the past is also a good thing.

3) Understanding a weapon and using it also allows one to understand the weaknesses of the weapon in question.

3A) Bad guys will use lots of things. I agree that more will use traditional weapons like a firearm or a knife, but I have had golf clubs, baseball bats, tire irons, hockey sticks, belts, and lots of non traditional modern weapons.

3B) Being able to adapt to multiple styles of weapons, trains the mind to be able to adapt to new situations. In training the mind to adapt and not be locked into an absolute, the mind as a weapon can be used much more effectively.

Of course, I bow to the experts of the art to give their point of view.

Thanks

 

[Doc_Jude]

I do not practice the art in question, but I do train with weapons of all types, and yes I do have some thoughts.

1) Training for nothing more than the pleasure of the movement alone is a worth while endeavor.

2) Training to preserve and understand the past is also a good thing.

3) Understanding a weapon and using it also allows one to understand the weaknesses of the weapon in question.

3A) Bad guys will use lots of things. I agree that more will use traditional weapons like a firearm or a knife, but I have had golf clubs, baseball bats, tire irons, hockey sticks, belts, and lots of non traditional modern weapons.

3B) Being able to adapt to multiple styles of weapons, trains the mind to be able to adapt to new situations. In training the mind to adapt and not be locked into an absolute, the mind as a weapon can be used much more effectively.

Of course, I bow to the experts of the art to give their point of view.

Thanks

Yep. Having spent over a decade in the Bujinkan, I would fully agree with your assessment.

 

[Cryozombie]

IMO many of those traditional weapons can be a bit unforgiving if you try and use them and your kamae is bad...

 

[jks9199]

I think there are two main reasons to train with so-called obsolete weapons. First, to preserve the historical tradition and knowledge. It's sad what's been lost because nobody thought to preserve an "obsolete" weapon... which also brings me to the second reason. To wit -- those "obsolete" weapons have lessons to teach which are applicable to weapons today. Some of those lessons may be stance or body dynamics (I've had students suddenly leap forward in understanding after they work the long stick in my system, for example, because it forces them to work both hands together). Others are principles that can be adapted to another weapon or improvised tool, like using principles from spear with a rifle and bayonet or dagger principles with a folding knife or a USMC-style fighting knife. Another example might be the use of eye-blinding chemicals; I'm pretty confident the concerns and tactics of using an eggshell filled with a powder and something like a pepperball or OC spray aren't wildly dissimilar, for example. And I'm sure the principle of capitalizing on the momentary distraction caused by the chemical is very applicable. And -- speaking as a cop myself -- understanding those "obsolete" weapons helps understand what someone can do with a similar weapon. Many Eastern long swords, including the katana, have similarities in use and capability, for example, to the preferred weapon of MS-13 and several other Latino street gangs, the machete. Principles of a short stick or club apply to someone armed with a baseball bat. And so on. (Wouldn't it help your articulation of the use of deadly force against someone using a baseball bat if you can say that you know clubs of like design can cause serious damage, breaking bones and crushing skulls?)

 

[Bigshadow]

I do not practice the art in question, but I do train with weapons of all types, and yes I do have some thoughts.

1) Training for nothing more than the pleasure of the movement alone is a worth while endeavor.

2) Training to preserve and understand the past is also a good thing.

3) Understanding a weapon and using it also allows one to understand the weaknesses of the weapon in question.

3A) Bad guys will use lots of things. I agree that more will use traditional weapons like a firearm or a knife, but I have had golf clubs, baseball bats, tire irons, hockey sticks, belts, and lots of non traditional modern weapons.

3B) Being able to adapt to multiple styles of weapons, trains the mind to be able to adapt to new situations. In training the mind to adapt and not be locked into an absolute, the mind as a weapon can be used much more effectively.

Of course, I bow to the experts of the art to give their point of view.

Thanks

I have only been in for 5 years now and would have to agree with this!

 

[Bill Sempf]

In my school, we approach each weapon as just a geometric shape, which totally changes the way I train. While I also completely agree with Mr. Parsons (I have six years in Aikido training classical kata with jo and katana) I like the geometric shape philosophy for its utility. The kusari fundo is any short flexible weapon. A belt. The shoge is any long flexible weapon. An extension cord.

We don't even train with a sword, because it has no analogue. We do train with a handgun (as a HTH weapon) because it is a common shape these days, sadly.

It's a pretty cool concept. We have a weapon per kyu, and then are expected to perform any significant taijutsu on our test using a weapon. I feel like it is very useful, but I do miss the classic 'satisfaction of movement' that you get from doing things that were done 1000 years ago.

Just my $0.02, but I like this direction the thread has taken.

S

 

[Dale Seago]

Yep. Having spent over a decade in the Bujinkan, I would fully agree with your assessment.

I've spent 24 years in the Bujinkan so far, and I also agree. . .and with jks9199 as well. A big-**** "thumbs up" to both!!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Almost any tool from the past can be replicated in some form today or currently is in some form today. Really those tools are not all that obsolete. As for beign able to learn the distance and timing from them well that is priceless.

 

[Obi Wan Shinobi]

Well first of all I do have to say that everyone has some good and valid points on traditional weapons. And I am not against the preservation of tradional weapons training as there still exists fencing, civil war reenactments and many hunters still use bows and muzzle loading weapons. I'm only stating that maybe since we train in budo in modern days as ours is a "living" art and as such it changes with the times. And being that our art is taught as a warrior way of life in that there is alot of traditional military battlefield and covert type methods that is a part of the Ninjutsu aspect of Bujinkan (although the ninjutsu secret squirrel stuff for the most part isn't taught anymore). That maybe we should lean towards what is readily available in this 21st century world of violence. Things like defensive driving and self defense around a vehicle. Gun safety and training and conceal carry (for legal purposes and with a permit in a state that allows it). Tactical knife carry, draw and defense. Chemical agent use, carry and defense. These are all "modern" tools used by both the military and law enforcement and law abiding citizens as well as the criminal/terrorist element. While I totally agree that there is alot of benefit to be gained in training in the traditional weapons but like I said before those were state of the art 1000 years ago. You don't see our military lining up in ranks and exchanging volleys of fire with their adversary. One can say that kind of training builds firing discipline and courage but its no longer use anymore since the battlefield has changed and the military changed with it. The same thing can be applied to our everyday lives. We no longer have to fear oppressive Samurai beheading any peasant for whatever reasons. We have mall shootings, college and school shootings, drive bys, home invasions and car jackings. Thats what we face everyday we live in America. Our streets and parks are more dangerous than even Iraq or Afghanistan statistically on an annual basis. I'm just saying that maybe we should update our 18 skills of the Ninja the Juhhakei for modern day survival as well as learning the traditional methods. And just for the record my favorite traditional weapon is the Kusarigama so yes I do train in traditional weapons.

 

[Bigshadow]

I'm only stating that maybe since we train in budo in modern days as ours is a "living" art and as such it changes with the times.

What follows is just my opinion....

Humans have remained relatively unchanged for thousands of years, they have two arms and two legs that are relative to their body height. They have been fighting for as long as they have existed. The only thing that has significantly changed are the weapons (range, speed, effectiveness). However, beyond the specific weapons attributes, they still have basic fundamental attributes that are inherent in using weapons usage. Much like the manipulation of space, timing, and balance, applies to war and fighting among nations, armies, or individuals. Just as it applies to achieving business opportunities and opportunities in life in general.

I believe the "Living" art doesn't "change", but rather grows, becoming wiser, and taking in new perspectives and experiences. So in essence it is change, but I don't believe it is in the form of an apple turning into an orange, more like the apple becomes sweeter. It is much like growing older and wiser, IMO.

Then again, I could be all wrong.

 

[Dale Seago]

Well first of all I do have to say that everyone has some good and valid points on traditional weapons. And I am not against the preservation of tradional weapons training as there still exists fencing, civil war reenactments and many hunters still use bows and muzzle loading weapons. I'm only stating that maybe since we train in budo in modern days as ours is a "living" art and as such it changes with the times. And being that our art is taught as a warrior way of life in that there is alot of traditional military battlefield and covert type methods that is a part of the Ninjutsu aspect of Bujinkan (although the ninjutsu secret squirrel stuff for the most part isn't taught anymore). That maybe we should lean towards what is readily available in this 21st century world of violence. Things like defensive driving and self defense around a vehicle. Gun safety and training and conceal carry (for legal purposes and with a permit in a state that allows it). Tactical knife carry, draw and defense. Chemical agent use, carry and defense. These are all "modern" tools used by both the military and law enforcement and law abiding citizens as well as the criminal/terrorist element. While I totally agree that there is alot of benefit to be gained in training in the traditional weapons but like I said before those were state of the art 1000 years ago. You don't see our military lining up in ranks and exchanging volleys of fire with their adversary. One can say that kind of training builds firing discipline and courage but its no longer use anymore since the battlefield has changed and the military changed with it. The same thing can be applied to our everyday lives. We no longer have to fear oppressive Samurai beheading any peasant for whatever reasons. We have mall shootings, college and school shootings, drive bys, home invasions and car jackings. Thats what we face everyday we live in America. Our streets and parks are more dangerous than even Iraq or Afghanistan statistically on an annual basis. I'm just saying that maybe we should update our 18 skills of the Ninja the Juhhakei for modern day survival as well as learning the traditional methods. And just for the record my favorite traditional weapon is the Kusarigama so yes I do train in traditional weapons.

No disagreement here. . .But perhaps you're simply not aware of the extent to which Hatsumi sensei does such things in his teaching? The old waza and kata are simply a core or base to work from, and I've heard him say more than once that a true martial art does not need to fundamentally change just because technology changes: Rather, it incorporates the new into the overall knowledge base in such a way that the practitioner can make the best use of it.

 

[newtothe dark]

What follows is just my opinion....

Humans have remained relatively unchanged for thousands of years, they have two arms and two legs that are relative to their body height. They have been fighting for as long as they have existed. The only thing that has significantly changed are the weapons (range, speed, effectiveness). However, beyond the specific weapons attributes, they still have basic fundamental attributes that are inherent in using weapons usage. Much like the manipulation of space, timing, and balance, applies to war and fighting among nations, armies, or individuals. Just as it applies to achieving business opportunities and opportunities in life in general.

I believe the "Living" art doesn't "change", but rather grows, becoming wiser, and taking in new perspectives and experiences. So in essence it is change, but I don't believe it is in the form of an apple turning into an orange, more like the apple becomes sweeter. It is much like growing older and wiser, IMO.

Then again, I could be all wrong.

Nice post I believe Darwin talked about this and called it evolution. Man has changed as has many things but they are still man and this baseness with the newness is what is our own uniqueness. i hope that came out right and most likely is spelled wrong. Oh well good post Bigshadow.

 

[Obi Wan Shinobi]

No disagreement here. . .But perhaps you're simply not aware of the extent to which Hatsumi sensei does such things in his teaching? The old waza and kata are simply a core or base to work from, and I've heard him say more than once that a true martial art does not need to fundamentally change just because technology changes: Rather, it incorporates the new into the overall knowledge base in such a way that the practitioner can make the best use of it.

Hey Dale....actually no I wasn't aware that Hatsumi Sensei did that in his teachings. But thats pretty much what I'm saying is that we should "incorporate" these teachings as well with the traditional weapons. I've always respect your input in these forums and am quite honored of your input concerning my question. I'll make it a point to incorporate the new with the old. Thanks.