How Would You Rework Techniques That Have Potential?

[DIYorDie89]

Mmm, a technique you need to work on is communicating properly, no one is dumping on you, they are reacting to your perceived arrogance in thinking you know more than people who have, collectively, been training for hundreds of years, who are senior instructors and even founders of styles. We have serving and retired military as well as serving and retired police officers (some have been both) on here, there's professional security people, bodyguards, MMA and full contact kick boxers, prison warders etc etc basically a lot of people who know about violence and you seem unwilling to listen to them.

If you are going to behave like a stroppy toddler telling people to shut up then any 'rude' replies you get are on your own head. Try tact. Tact is the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way they look forward to the journey so please play nice, we'd like to hear from adults not children. This is the way.

Thanks for the tip. It’s just that this guy I was responding to had made a snarky comment on the last post I made (at the VERY least, that’s the way I took it, I could have misinterpreted it). I just figured out not too long ago (as in within half an hour ago) that Bruce Lee was criticized for thinking outside the box too and look what he managed to achieve.

 

[Tez3]

Thanks for the tip. It’s just that this guy I was responding to had made a snarky comment on the last post I made (at the VERY least, that’s the way I took it, I could have misinterpreted it). I just figured out not too long ago (as in within half an hour ago) that Bruce Lee was criticized for thinking outside the box too and look what he managed to achieve.

My dear, you are not Bruce Lee. You are grasshopper.

 

[DIYorDie89]

So what about this do you think needs to be reworked? Is there some reason that you're unable to use a wrist lock to bring someone down?

Not necessarily. I was just using THAT as an example of techniques that have been said to not work against hulking bozos on drugs. Still using the wrist lock as an example, I was looking to tweak (pun intended) certain steps to it so that it will work more effectively against them.

My dear, you are not Bruce Lee. You are grasshopper.

Isn’t that how Bruce Lee started? But then again, that’s how ALL of us start(ed) out.

 

[DIYorDie89]

Nothing is always. Teach them to do it properly, and if they can't make it work, or work consistently, move on. Consider also the possibility that there's something unusual about the person they're trying to use it on. I've put a lot of people down with various applications of wrist locks. I also trained one young lady whose wrists were oddly flexible in odd ways. And wrist locks didn't affect her in any noticeable way.

My little rule of thumb, I would work on a technique that I suck at more than the techniques I’m good enough at so I could examine which steps work and which steps could use some work. If a wrist lock is ineffective, maybe grab the fingers and bend them back towards the attacker, take a step backwards and/or drive the arm down to the ground while using the wrist lock. I would personally use all three steps.

 

[Tez3]

Not necessarily. I was just using THAT as an example of techniques that have been said to not work against hulking bozos on drugs. Still using the wrist lock as an example, I was looking to tweak (pun intended) certain steps to it so that it will work more effectively against them.

Isn’t that how Bruce Lee started? But then again, that’s how ALL of us start(ed) out.

Are you thinking that nobody has tried tweaking wrist locks before. Have you actually tried any techniques at all on people who are not just actively resisting but trying to knock your block off?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not necessarily. I was just using THAT as an example of techniques that have been said to not work against hulking bozos on drugs. Still using the wrist lock as an example, I was looking to tweak (pun intended) certain steps to it so that it will work more effectively against them.

You can't tweak techniques to work on the people you're describing. Joint locks work because the person wants to avoid the pain or damage to the limb. If someone is strung out on PCP, you can break the limb and rip it completely off and they aren't likely to care. Or notice.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Not necessarily. I was just using THAT as an example of techniques that have been said to not work against hulking bozos on drugs. Still using the wrist lock as an example, I was looking to tweak (pun intended) certain steps to it so that it will work more effectively against them.

For that particular technique, there are 3 things.

1: No matter how you tweak it, it won't work on certain people, and most likely won't work on someone on drugs (depending the drug)
2: Check your own technique and make sure you're doing it right. If you need to add more leverage due to a strength issue (either by adjusting your angle/adding your second hand as the two main ways), then do that.
3: The preparation beforehand. In this case get them off balance first, and/or not thinking about a wrist lock.

Those 3 steps are true of most technique-realize they won't work on everyone in every situation, make sure you're doing it correctly for your body (short/tall people need different adjustments for techniques) and do things outside the techniques. That's pretty universal not just for martial arts, but techniques in just about any sport. And if you find that it seems it's not working on anyone, either step 2 or 3 is messed up, or it's just not a good technique.

 

[DIYorDie89]

Are you thinking that nobody has tried tweaking wrist locks before. Have you actually tried any techniques at all on people who are not just actively resisting but trying to knock your block off?

Oh, nooooo, no. I don’t think that at all. I would assume that anything and everything I could possibly think of HAS been tried and/or done in the past.

You can't tweak techniques to work on the people you're describing. Joint locks work because the person wants to avoid the pain or damage to the limb. If someone is strung out on PCP, you can break the limb and rip it completely off and they aren't likely to care. Or notice.

Not necessarily dismissing your reply, but there just might be one lock that COULD work on the guy in question. Do you know what the Grovit lock is? If you don’t, I have no problem posting a video here to save you and everyone else some typing time.

For that particular technique, there are 3 things.

1: No matter how you tweak it, it won't work on certain people, and most likely won't work on someone on drugs (depending the drug)
2: Check your own technique and make sure you're doing it right. If you need to add more leverage due to a strength issue (either by adjusting your angle/adding your second hand as the two main ways), then do that.
3: The preparation beforehand. In this case get them off balance first, and/or not thinking about a wrist lock.

Those 3 steps are true of most technique-realize they won't work on everyone in every situation, make sure you're doing it correctly for your body (short/tall people need different adjustments for techniques) and do things outside the techniques. That's pretty universal not just for martial arts, but techniques in just about any sport. And if you find that it seems it's not working on anyone, either step 2 or 3 is messed up, or it's just not a good technique.

There’s another good point.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not necessarily dismissing your reply, but there just might be one lock that COULD work on the guy in question. Do you know what the Grovit lock is? If you don’t, I have no problem posting a video here to save you and everyone else some typing time.

What makes you think that will work any better? The bottom line remains the same. The person you're applying it to has to be aware of, and care about, the injury it could cause before the lock can work. If you're justified in killing them, don't muck about with submission holds. Just shoot them. Or go directly to breaking their neck.

 

[DIYorDie89]

What makes you think that will work any better? The bottom line remains the same. The person you're applying it to has to be aware of, and care about, the injury it could cause before the lock can work. If you're justified in killing them, don't muck about with submission holds. Just shoot them. Or go directly to breaking their neck.

I’m not saying it WILL, I’m just saying that it COULD. Here’s exactly what I would do. First, I would train the technique slowly at first. Then, I would train it in real time. There is no guarantee that the neck lock will work on that particular criminal. And you best believe I would kill that person if I was justified in doing so. I’m a strong supporter of the Stand Your Ground Law.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What techniques do you believe have the potential to work on the streets,

- Leg is longer than the arm. If you are good at toes push kick, it can be used to counter all punches.
- Circular punches can be used to deflect all straight punches. If you are good at circular punch, your opponent's jab and cross will be hard to land on you.
- If you can hold both hands into a big fist, extend both arms forward and hide your head behind it, you may use it to deflect all circular punches.

 

[Buka]

I’ll try to explain this the best I can. One technique I could think of at the moment is a wrist lock. For example, if a thug goes to push you with one hand, grab the fingers with both hands like you would with the back of the thug’s hand, bring it down and towards you while you are taking a step backwards. And from there, just drive the hand downward.

We have to be careful when thinking about the application of any joint control techniques. In training, we sometimes tend to isolate part of the attack in order to practice a technique that we think we would like to do. (I know I sure did when first learning joint locks)

What I mean by this - when a thug goes to push you with one hand, that push isn't isolated, it rarely ever, if at all, is by itself. It's part of an attack that exponentially increases in strength/speed in fractions of seconds. And usually with bad intent.

Grabbing the fingers in this way is very difficult. As is driving them down. The problem in training is we have our training partners do an initial move....and then stand there and allow us to do whatever particular counter we want to work, be it a strike or a joint lock. What we have to do is create increased resistance for our training partner to apply. And vice versa.

And the problem with THAT is safety. It's real hard to practice grabbing fingers quickly, with strength - and not wrecking your partners hand.

It's no wonder training never ends.

 

[drop bear]

Nothing is always. Teach them to do it properly, and if they can't make it work, or work consistently, move on. Consider also the possibility that there's something unusual about the person they're trying to use it on. I've put a lot of people down with various applications of wrist locks. I also trained one young lady whose wrists were oddly flexible in odd ways. And wrist locks didn't affect her in any noticeable way.

Yeah. But it is a lot less common for people to be able to pull one off in any sort of consistent manner.

Which is important if you are actually trying to find a working version

 

[drop bear]

You can't tweak techniques to work on the people you're describing. Joint locks work because the person wants to avoid the pain or damage to the limb. If someone is strung out on PCP, you can break the limb and rip it completely off and they aren't likely to care. Or notice.

You can. You create a mechanical advantage. Just like like any submission.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Instead of to use joint lock (such as the neck lock) to hold your opponent to stand still, it's better to use joint lock to take your opponent down.

 

[isshinryuronin]

What I mean by this - when a thug goes to push you with one hand, that push isn't isolated, it rarely ever, if at all, is by itself. It's part of an attack that exponentially increases in strength/speed in fractions of seconds. And usually with bad intent.

Grabbing the fingers in this way is very difficult.

Good point. Important point. Grabs and pushes may occur just by themselves in middle school or by a drunk. In these cases, basic releases and counter grabs will work, just like in intermediate dojo practice. But, as you say, this is usually not the case in real life. Such attacks are just a prelude to something nasty quickly coming at you. It's not the pushing or grabbing hand you need to be concerned about. The first response you need to have is one that is capable of nullifying the other hand's impending attack.

Pain is a good nullifier that can be inflicted on the pinned or immobilized hand/arm the attacker has generously offered you, but it must be done immediately and with power. A kick to the knee or shin (if you have hard shoes on) can do the same thing. Such disruption moves should give you time to get a good strike to a vital area, or at least check the real attack. Then, you have the luxury of striking, then setting a joint lock and further follow-up.

A quick counter wrist grab and twisting pull (hikite) is another way to disrupt the attacker, allowing you to beat him to the punch or get him out of position. There are numerous other ways to deal with a push or grab, but to stick with Buka's quote, the main point is that in combat, it is very difficult to go right to a lock. You have to hurt the guy some to set it up.

In the words of one of the world's foremost authority on Chin Na or Qin Na (the art of seizing and locking), Master Zhao Da Yuan (former Chief Martial Art Instructor for the China People's Police Officer's Academy in Beijing) - "Principle one: First, strike...in a fight it is impossible to grab an opponent and apply Chin Na directly...You must first strike the opponent to force him to react and upset his balance and position, then you have a chance..."

 

[Buka]

Well said. The guys I've seen with the best joint locking skills always told me "End the violence first, then apply a lock."

Trying to get a joint lock on somebody when they're in motion is like a kitten trying to catch a string.

There's also the fact that when people are angry, drunk or high - sometimes they don't feel anything.

And great point you mention about when someone pushes with one hand....where's the other one, that's what you have to worry about.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well said. The guys I've seen with the best joint locking skills always told me "End the violence first, then apply a lock."

Trying to get a joint lock on somebody when they're in motion is like a kitten trying to catch a string.

There's also the fact that when people are angry, drunk or high - sometimes they don't feel anything.

And great point you mention about when someone pushes with one hand....where's the other one, that's what you have to worry about.

I don't think a one handed push is all that common, either. And as described, they'd be far more likely to GRAB and strike than push you out of their reach to strike. And the grab changes the mechanics.

 

[Buka]

Probably not common at all, especially these days. But I've been pushed one handed before, several times actually, usually by bigger people, figuring they could just shoo me away. But I don't really shoo.

The last time was to keep me away from someone who was trying to pick a fight with another fool, the guy shoved me one handed in the chest. I just went with it and got shoved back a bit. But I have a really good two handed shove. We used to train it quite diligently, for many years, utilizing your entire body of course, especially your legs and core.

I just took a step in and quietly and politely started to speak in singsong, I said "Mary had a little...."
What happens in that instant is their mind recognizes the phrase - instead of concentrating on you - I shoved this guy so fricken hard he went off his feet into his friend and crashed to the ground.

My backup was already on the way, they were running up about fifty feet away. Probably made me braver than I usually am. We ended up giving them a proper scolding and allowed them to leave the property.

God, I love to shove.

 

[isshinryuronin]

But I have a really good two handed shove. We used to train it quite diligently, for many years, utilizing your entire body of course, especially your legs and core.

A shove is not usually thought of as an actual MA technique - because it usually isn't. But, I suppose it can be when executed as you describe. There are a couple of kata containing a double palm heel to the lower and upper torso after an initial circular clearing move. These are designed as pressure point strikes, but with more follow thru and some slight forward motion, can easily be called a MA shove. What differentiates a MA shove from the common shove, is that the body stays centered over the feet, without leaning into it, and originates from the core, as you touched on, and puts you in position to take advantage of the change in engagement distance (maii) to follow up.