Joint Locks

[5rings]

Joint locks can work great...provided you put the same amount of training into them as you do a punch or kick or block, actually more time as their more complex. As others have said a lock is a destruction ratcheted down a notch. I don't always want to break the joint and sometimes breaking the joint in question actually causes more problems than it solves. For instance, I've got someone drunk poking me in the chest. I take control of the fingers and use them as levers to control the individual. Now, if I break those fingers their of no more use to me for controlling that person. The trick with a true lock (as opposed to destruction) is taking it right up to the edge of breaking and using that leverage or pain to maintain control of the individual...if controlling is what I want to do. Like any other technique it will certainly depend on the situation and the individual that I'm defending against as to whether or not I'll use it. As an aikido practitioner, though, I have to say I'm very fond of using joints to control. Of course, as that's my bread and butter I also work those techniques and concepts more than many other folks will who use locks as an adjunct to their training.

Yes I agree completely, you have to put lots of hours into learning the Technique of when to use them, Aikido offers a good understanding of transition from punch or stike to Grappling & Joint Locks.

 

[MJS]

Nothing works all of the time. Even for the person who has practiced for years against resisting opponents.

Agreed, and I hope I didn't make my post sound otherwise. I was simply saying that offering up a little resistance is better than having your uke just standing there, letting you go thru this long series of locks. Of course that'll work.

That being said, joint locks can be fight enders when used appropriately; either via destruction of the joint or as a tool to restrain an aggressor.

If a strike is what is called for, or if escape and flight is what is called for, then do what is appropriate. But if the joint lock is the tool you need at the time, then not having it means not being able to use it.

Daniel

Agreed on both parts.

 

[sfs982000]

Joint locks are just as an important tool to have in your arsenal as foot/hand technique. I would agree that they need to practiced often against a resisting opponent in order to fully learn how to properly apply them. My personal experience, having done previous security work where we have had to detain individuals, has been overall positive in the sense that I was able to prevent individuals from harming me or my coworkers by utilizing arm/leg/ankle lock variations. For SD situations on the street, every situation is going to be different and my experience there is that normally it doesn't boil down to a one-on-one situation and that a person will normally have to deal with more than one attacker.

 

[5rings]

Joint locks are just as an important tool to have in your arsenal as foot/hand technique. I would agree that they need to practiced often against a resisting opponent in order to fully learn how to properly apply them. My personal experience, having done previous security work where we have had to detain individuals, has been overall positive in the sense that I was able to prevent individuals from harming me or my coworkers by utilizing arm/leg/ankle lock variations. For SD situations on the street, every situation is going to be different and my experience there is that normally it doesn't boil down to a one-on-one situation and that a person will normally have to deal with more than one attacker.

Yea I trained under guy for years that said, reading the energy of the resisting opponent was vital to the success of any joint lock....I believe he callied it "knowing the Lines of Resistance"
Always try to think outside the Traditional Box

 

[Wizard58]

I have no problem using joint locks. But I don't just release them, if standing I prefer to throw person or slam them. On the ground I prefer to just break the joint or dislocate it or at least disable the opponent temperarily. I prefer aikido over jujitsu but either works well for me.

 

[Steve]

One thing I haven't seen is the use of locks as a means to improve position. One of the principles of BJJ (not unique to it, just that it's what I know) is the idea of lockflow and submission chains. I'll use submissions to set up sweeps to set up other submissions. In a self defense situation, particularly if I'm on the bottom and my immediate goal is to improve position and ultimately disengage, I'm going to use wrist locks, elbow locks, shoulder locks in combination with chokes and sweeps to reverse position or create enough space to stand back up. A lock doesn't need to destroy a joint in order to be useful in self defense. If I attack competently enough to force my opponent to defend, I can create space to escape.

That said, some locks are more destructive than others. Wristlocks are painful but difficult to do any real damage. Heel hooks and toe holds can wreck an ankle in no time flat. Knee bars are actually pretty difficult to finish quickly. In training, they can be dangerous only because rather than being a precursor to damage, pain usually comes about AFTER damage has been done.

Anyway, point is, locks are useful for more than pain compliance or control. They can be used to create opportunities.

 

[l_uk3y]

Agree with pretty much everyone.

A joint lock is as effective as the way you train it (Like every technique)

Also as others have said. There are different levels of lock. Like our standing armbars in our hapkido class. You can start from one lock, if it isn't going well you can either work it towards the ground or you can roll it over into another technique. Same story. If opponent is still resisting then you can use there effort to turn there arm into another very strong lock.

Most of the locks we cover can either be used to drive an opponent onto the ground, be used to control your opponents position/balance. Or if needed destroy joints in some very nasty ways. (like any MA's locks really).

I dont think that a joint lock is something you should be hunting for in a SD situation. We actually train (even off basic wrist grab setups) to get a strike in first to break balance before beginning the lock.
It should be something that just happens if you want it to work. You feel the opening and should sense that its time to switch to a lock. If you have to search for it, then I dont believe it will work.

 

[zDom]

Wristlocks are painful but difficult to do any real damage.

Difficult for who?

Or difficult to learn well enough to be able to do damage with them?



I'm pretty sure my wrist locks would do severe damage. Severe. Bone breaks typically take 6-8 weeks to heal. The soft and connective tissue damage from a wrist lock as we train them in MSK are likely to take many, many years to recover from.

If I end up in correct position to begin applying force, may be "no defense" at that point. Of course, me getting to that position is the real issue. My chances are decent; my instructor's chances are very, very good; his instructor's chances (before he passed away) were probably nearing the point of "no defense" other than running like hell before he gets within grabbing range.

 

[Steve]

Difficult for who?

I guess everything's relative. I can only speak for myself.

Or difficult to learn well enough to be able to do damage with them?

Wristlocks that I am thinking of are goosenecks and such, which are mostly pain compliance and unless the person has very inflexible wrists, very difficult to do any real damage with. They hurt, but don't do much more than that

I'm sure that there are lots of things I don't know. If you train some wristlock techniques that would tear up the wrist, I'll believe you.

But the point I was really driving at is that the wristlock can be useful in self defense as a means to create space to escape, particularly from the ground, even if they don't destroy the joint.

 

[dancingalone]

Difficult for who?

Or difficult to learn well enough to be able to do damage with them?



I'm pretty sure my wrist locks would do severe damage. Severe. Bone breaks typically take 6-8 weeks to heal. The soft and connective tissue damage from a wrist lock as we train them in MSK are likely to take many, many years to recover from.

If I end up in correct position to begin applying force, may be "no defense" at that point. Of course, me getting to that position is the real issue. My chances are decent; my instructor's chances are very, very good; his instructor's chances (before he passed away) were probably nearing the point of "no defense" other than running like hell before he gets within grabbing range.

The single fight I have been involved in within the last 15 years ended in three moves: block/body shift to avoid the punch, knifehand to the nose, wrist lock take down.

Joint locks work like any other martial technique will if sufficiently trained. If you run into one of those double-jointed people, you'll simply have to flow onto another technique that does work. And isn't that why we're all training?

 

[Draven]

Steve,

Its not a BJJ thing, I've seen it in other systems like Traditional JJ and Sport Jujitsu and even kung-fu Chin Na.

Take the idea of using a wrist lock as a control for a takedown or which is purpose of the wrist lock takedown. However, most basic wristlocks such as when pulling out on the wrist and pushing down on knuckles of the opponent's hand causes a sheering action which destroys the joint & disables the hand.

 

[blindsage]

I have to say I'm actually surprised at the lack of comments by "only gross motor movements work IRL" people on this thread.

 

[MJS]

One thing I haven't seen is the use of locks as a means to improve position. One of the principles of BJJ (not unique to it, just that it's what I know) is the idea of lockflow and submission chains. I'll use submissions to set up sweeps to set up other submissions. In a self defense situation, particularly if I'm on the bottom and my immediate goal is to improve position and ultimately disengage, I'm going to use wrist locks, elbow locks, shoulder locks in combination with chokes and sweeps to reverse position or create enough space to stand back up. A lock doesn't need to destroy a joint in order to be useful in self defense. If I attack competently enough to force my opponent to defend, I can create space to escape.

I have a lockflow series that I do in Arnis. We transition from standing locks, and then end off with a few on the ground. Personally, I like the flow, because it gives me more options to pick from, should the one that I'm doing, start to fail. There are also a few other locks that are not a part of the lock flow.

That said, some locks are more destructive than others. Wristlocks are painful but difficult to do any real damage. Heel hooks and toe holds can wreck an ankle in no time flat. Knee bars are actually pretty difficult to finish quickly. In training, they can be dangerous only because rather than being a precursor to damage, pain usually comes about AFTER damage has been done.

Anyway, point is, locks are useful for more than pain compliance or control. They can be used to create opportunities.

I agree that some locks are more destructive than others. I've seen some, that will really wreck the person. The wrist locks...there are a number of variations, so I'd say depending on what you're doing, will depend on the damage, IMO.

 

[Draven]

To be honest grappling can employ gross motor skills but gross motor skill based SD is intended to be a foundation that gets built on turning gross motor skills, into fine motor skills and complex motor skills. Which is basicly were MA comes in...

 

[Steve]

Steve,

Its not a BJJ thing, I've seen it in other systems like Traditional JJ and Sport Jujitsu and even kung-fu Chin Na.

Take the idea of using a wrist lock as a control for a takedown or which is purpose of the wrist lock takedown. However, most basic wristlocks such as when pulling out on the wrist and pushing down on knuckles of the opponent's hand causes a sheering action which destroys the joint & disables the hand.

Draven, I never said it was strictly a BJJ thing. Please show me where I did. Seriously. I've got so many things being attributed to me these days, I'm losing track.

I said that I'm speaking from a BJJ perspective because that's what I know. It's right there in my first post in the thread. Do you train in Traditional JJ, Sport Jujitsu and kung-fu Chin Na? I don't, and I wouldn't want to misrepresent myself as someone knowledgeable about those things. I will also not attempt to speak with authority regarding other styles in which I have no experience.

 

[5rings]

Like I posted earlier, we have only five Locks which we practiced.....since we feel that they are the most primary locks that most fights end up in, excluding the head Lock which we practice as a incapacitation Technique.
We teach a complete understanding of the extremity (tendon and muscle) as well as the use of pressure point control, dealing with manipulation of the surface muscle groups and proper tool placement, as well as understanding nurological lines of resistance. The success of any restraint deals more with proper entry and manipulation of the attackers balance. To understand this in its entirety, it can take months of practice with constant self corrections. But I have found that locks of any kind work best in combination with striking then applying the restraint. It just seems to be easier as leverage is applied if you catch the assailant off guard or somewhat incapacitated by a strike first.
"Always try to think outside the Traditional Box"

 

[Kyosanim]

In this thread, the subject of joint locking/controlling, came up. Rather than sidetrack that other thread, I figured I'd start a seperate one, to disucss everybodies thoughts on the use of them.

Is this something that you use? Do you feel that they're effective?

Just a few questions to get the ball rolling.

Well MJS I personally think they are wonderful. They have draw backs like all techniques but thats life. The biggest issues I have found are rather simply ratified. 1 In my experience arts that practice both striking and grappling the locks tend to be put on the back burner and the skill required to actually apply them is not developed or the opposite is true. 2 As the others have stated they do not always work. 3 You need lots of them. A good boxer only two punches. The jab and whatever his other best punch is. Joint locks....well this works great on short people, that works good on tall people, oh and this other one only works if you push into them, but they can move so you have to chase them around to keep them in the lock. If your going to really use them then you need to not only know at least ten, and you need to be good at them. Though I will say they are much more reliable than pressure points.

 

[Shifu Steve]

I think the statement "they don't always work" is a little broad. The locks are always there, some may just be ineffective in a given instance and context. The points made about locks being one notch below joint destruction are good ones. To take that idea one step further, everyone has their pain compliance level (outside of your occasional PCP junkie). I have had students tap the second the lock is applied and have had some that surprise me with the range in their joints. It varies, that's why they are practiced with so much control.

In a self defense situation it is difficult to gauge where ultimate pain compliance ends and joint destruction begins. It's a fine line that is further blurred by the gravity of the situation. Personally, I have used a lock in self defense to incapacitate. It enabled me to wait for the bouncers to come and do their job. Had I used a strike, I may have faced legal problems (maybe). I should qualify this by saying I don't think my life was imminently threatened in this particular situation but the rather large steroid experiment gone wrong was certainly capable of doing some serious damage.

If the situation is life threatening (or perceived as such), then the notion of using locks for pain compliance has a diminished value. The situation is one that needs to be over, quickly. If a locking/destroying a joint is a means to that end then so be it. I do think that in some situations it can be a means to get someone on the ground which can provide a means of escape if that's the ideal.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I have trained with people whose elbows could bend more than 10 degrees backwards. That is a really 'icky' feeling because when you apply a lock, the elbow goes past the point where an average elbow joint would have broken and it just feels wrong.

 

[Draven]

Draven, I never said it was strictly a BJJ thing. Please show me where I did. Seriously. I've got so many things being attributed to me these days, I'm losing track.

I said that I'm speaking from a BJJ perspective because that's what I know. It's right there in my first post in the thread. Do you train in Traditional JJ, Sport Jujitsu and kung-fu Chin Na? I don't, and I wouldn't want to misrepresent myself as someone knowledgeable about those things. I will also not attempt to speak with authority regarding other styles in which I have no experience.

I wasn't acusing you saying anything, just pointing most grappling systems use the same principles. For the record if it makes feel better I trained in Judo, Sport Jujitsu, traditional JJ & I have cross trained with a few Wing Chun & 5-animals kung-fu stylists who do practice Chin-Na. I've also trained with BJJ and hold a rank of Level 2 MACP instructor.

But, like I said I'm not accusing you just pointing out that the concept isn't limited to BJJ...